Icons and the last few years on CF

[mishkan]

I promote Messianic Judaism as it has been identified for centuries. Those against me promote something completely opposed to this, obviously.

In other words, you promote Christian missionary activity designed to bring Jews into church pews. That's fine. There are dozens of forums on CF that are in accordance with your views. Let the modern Torah Observant Messianics have one forum.

 

[annier]

I promote Messianic Judaism as it has been identified for centuries. Those against me promote something completely opposed to this, obviously.

As long as this is true, there will be no ceasing of the strife and debate then. It will occur no matter how many Messianics, and Messianic Jews are kicked out or leave the forum. New ones will string in, to simply find this forum and this site in opposition to members within the movement as it truly exists as a "WHOLE". Would you as an Messianic agree? Or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[annier]

In other words, you promote Christian missionary activity designed to bring Jews into church pews. That's fine. There are dozens of forums on CF that are in accordance with your views. Let the modern Torah Observant Messianics have one forum.

Are you suggesting that Messianics are not Christian? Are you suggesting they are to be opposed to Christianity?
Why not all Messianics have a forum? And the variations among them sub forums? I do not unmderstand your thinking here, as of benefit to the entire Messianic community, being given a forum on this site?

 

[Avodat]

Are you suggesting that Messianics are not Christian? Are you suggesting they are to be opposed to Christianity?

TO Messianics are, very obviously, very different to Christians

 

[annier]

TO Messianics are, very obviously, very different to Christians

No, it is not obvious to me at all. It is what has been waging in here since I got here.

What I want to know is...Are some here of the understanding that Messianic Judaism is opposed to Christianity?

 

[Avodat]

How many standard Christians do you know who are Torah Observant? That is a very obvious difference between the two!

None of us can speak for all Messianics but I do not see any inherent opposition to Christianity in MJism, though that may not be so for some individuals who may feel there is, or should be, some opposition.

 

[ananda]

MJ & mainstream Christianity, in my eyes, are like two separate arms connected to the same torso (Messiah). One arm is not the same as the other arm: they are similar in many ways but there is a difference.

 

[annier]

How many standard Christians do you know who are Torah Observant? That is a very obvious difference between the two!

What are you saying here? Messianic Jews, have historically called themselves Hebrew Christians???????????? Hebrew in that time, is what made for the difference. Obviously, Hebrew back then meant they were remaining practicing JEWS.

None of us can speak for all Messianics but I do not see any inherent opposition to Christianity in MJism, though that may not be so for some individuals who may feel there is, or should be, some opposition.

I agree, as I believe I see that with some as well. However, what I think should be obvious to everyone here on this SITE. That whatever differences between Messianic and Christian denotes, it can never denote opposition to Christianity, nor evangelizing unto Christ/ Messiah. As I understand that to be the sitewide rules of this site. Or am I wrong on that?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Are some here of the understanding that Messianic Judaism is opposed to Christianity?

Biblically and historically, there has always been the case that Messianic Judaism IS Christianity - Jewish Christianity to be exact.

And ultimately, if wanting to talk on Torah Observant Messianic Jews/Gentiles, there has to be honesty with the bottom line fact that Torah Observant Messianic believers had NO issue calling themselves Christian. Within this forum, every time someone tries to say "Well, you can't be here as a Messianic if you're a Christian!!!", they always go directly counter to the rules of the forum with regards to who CF was set up for - for EVERY SUB-Forum was/is designed for Christians.

It's not that difficult to name dozens of standard Christians/Christian Churches that are observant of God's Torah - but stereotypes on that always keep many from seeing clearly.

There are dozens of forums for others to promote missionary activity designed to bring Jews out of Churches (or make them opposed to Churches and anything Christian) and into places where it's generally Gentiles seeking claim to the title "Judaism" even when other Jews have noted they didn't cease practicing Biblical Judaism within the world of Christendom. And if wanting to have a forum that's not Christian, one can go to the "World Relgions" or other forums elsewhere that are against Christian views promoted. But using a site as a Christian site as a staging ground to claim no Messsianic Jews can be Christian and Messianic Jewish is both against the rules of CF - and the way MJism is designed today in the majority of the movement - with it being the case that those against it have LONG been in the minority camp and not really prominent in Messianic Judaism.

Anyone truly wishing to be Torah Observant needs to drop the attacks on Christians or the Churches - and get in line with history, as the forum was not meant to go past that.

As noted before:

I think the lines are very clear and work just fine. Just some people cannot compromise and live with the opinions of others in a charitable way. I really think that an internet forum is not for them.

We all say things that challenge others and that's ok. We feel insulted sometimes, and that's ok too. But to push to legislate for a monolithic set of accepted opinions based on one's own is to elevate one's own opinion far too highly. This is why CF and this particular sub-forum has permeable boundaries. Otherwise we would end up with forums of one or two people at best- who just pat each other on the back and agree as they pass cigars to each other and affirm their own supremacy. How dull. And spiritually dead.

In light of how many Messianic JEWISH believers have actually left due to how unattractive it was, it says something when folks cannot pick up on how so much done in the proclamation of "I'm truly more Observant than THEY ARE!!!" don't realize what they do. This is even more problematic when accusations are thrown out such as "That's just Christian" to imply anything corrupt or negligent or unconcerned for the Lord - as if it's a good thing to attempt demeaning others by regulating anything they disagree with to be "Christian" and portrayed as if it's a cuss word - no different than someone offensively saying "That's just Jewish" on a Jewish website whenever they dsiagree with something/want to find a way of smearing someone. Christian is not a byword - nor is it the case that using the term as such is in line with what the Word says in Ephesians 4:28-30 on not having unwholesome talk NOT come out of our mouths.


This is also in connection with the other BIG Elephant in the room that no one really wants to address honestly. And all who are posting in the forums are people of high intelligence/thinking, so it is not something that should be difficult to understand if one is willing to see what's present...and take ownership of it:

For as said before - if anyone honestly looks at the MJ Statement Of Purpose (new) at the bottom of the page, it says the following explictly:

We believe it is the calling of all believers to share the "Good News" of the coming Kingdom and to live a life transformed by the Spirit of God following our Lord's example of love toward God, and all mankind.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0

​

It doesn't take a genius to read what the site wide rules say when it comes to advocating CHRISTIANITY - from the Nicene Creed to Support of the Church and other things. All things flow on these forums from that simple reality. On this forum, if you're a Messianic Jewish believer or a Messianic Gentile, it is EXPECTED that you had better agree with Christianity being advocated - and be in agreement with neither promoting or allowing denouncment of it to occur.

But you claim to be Messianic and refuse to honor anything in CHrisitanity, you simply don't honor the SoP - and thus, you don't belong on it as CF feels. End of Story.

The name of the HOST site we're at - Christian Forums - is a bit of a no brainer as to what is meant to be promoted - and it's intellectually dishonest for anyone to complain in the name of "We don't feel JUDAISM AS WE SEE IT IS PROMOTED!!!" when they fail to be honorable toward what CF noted on its own interpretation.

It is disingenious for anyone to read the SoP or CF and attempt to either slide things that are basically rants against Christianity - or complain on not feeling supported by CF when they already made plain they couldn't care less about it. It has been made plain multiple times here (as well as on other forums ) directly - and that's something that cannot be avoided.

You don't go into someone's house, start to raid their fridge for food/make a bed or build a chicken coup (against the neighborhood community rules) - and then bring others in proclaiming "You need to accomodate us in what we think - as this is how we feel you should be living life!!" . It'd be even more problematic if there were attempts at gathering a committee with like minded people wanting to use your home for their own purposes - and trying to talk on how the neighborhood should support their "just cause" - even though they may have no issue calling home/telling friends and associates how they hate the neighborhood and think the owners/founders of it are foolish.

That'd be rude....and to add to the issue, it would give the impression that others claiming concern with "healthy living" are basically using your home as a parasite - using your resources/manpower for their own benefit. It doesn't work like that in the real world - and neither does it work like that here.

CF has made very plain that all faith groups - be it the Baptist or the Reformed or the Charismatic and the Messianic Jewish - are to be in direct agreement with the SITE Wide rules as it concerns CHristianity. This has been said both explictly and implictly - and no one who is intellectually honest on the matter will say otherwise. If the Site Wide rules cannot be honored and such intentions of not doing so have been stated as such, there's no way to hide that.

This is not a forum meant to denounce Christianity - in the name of Messianic Judaism. This is not a forum meant to denouce Chrisitans or the Church - in the name of Messianic Judaism. This is not a Forum meant to claim Jewish Observant believers of Torah who are Christians are not "Torah Observant" - in the name of Messianic Judaism. It is a forum consistent with what other Messianic Jews have long noted when it comes to advocating the goal of promoting Christianity and seeing Messianic Judaism as conected to that -bridging the gap for Jewish believers in Christ. Messianic Judaism is distinct from other forms of Christianity on multiple levels - but it was never meant to be seen as in competition to it.

So long as people believe a lie that the forum was meant to be SEPERATE from Christianity, there will always be attempts to hijack it for their own purposes - and then cry "FOUL!!!!" when it is not honored or seen as honorable. If people do not like Christians or the Church, there's nothing saying that they cannot feel that way. The option is simply for them to leave and go elsewhere in places they have freedom to express such - btu CF has never given any permission for that to occur here.

Basically, if you're a Christian (be it Jewish or Gentile), CF was meant to support you. But it's ludicrious to expect CF to be supportative of not being such/trying to raise fuss on others who are. We can talk all day long about trying to examine the SoP when it comes to the variations of Messianic Jewish thought and Jewish lifestyle that others didn't like (and used to be accustomed to not seeing discussed ) - but there needs to be honesty shown in dealing with the fact that the SoP was never honored when one trys to find ways of denouncing Christianity on a site made to support it.

Thanks for pointing out that the house rules don't allow for the judging of other's level of observance. It had to be said. We are all different. Some keep the Feast etc very faithfully, others go further, others cut and paste as they grow and move along. The fact that someone could rage about it being a problem shows a lack of respect for those who are doing their best on the path to seek out living a life pleasing to God.

 

[Avodat]

What are you saying here? Messianic Jews, have historically called themselves Hebrew Christians???????????? Hebrew in that time, is what made for the difference. Obviously, Hebrew back then meant they were remaining practicing JEWS.

I agree, as I believe I see that with some as well. However, what I think should be obvious to everyone here on this SITE. That whatever differences between Messianic and Christian denotes, it can never denote opposition to Christianity, nor evangelizing unto Christ/ Messiah.

Wish I could work out whether you are talking about in antiquity or today! I assumed it was today.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As long as this is true, there will be no ceasing of the strife and debate then. It will occur no matter how many Messianics, and Messianic Jews are kicked out or leave the forum. New ones will string in, to simply find this forum and this site in opposition to members within the movement as it truly exists as a "WHOLE".

True.

Messianic Judaism as a WHOLE - and according to the leaders in it who founded the modern movement in the 1960s/70s - have long noted how many things are done by minority groups in the name of the movement which have nothing to do with Biblical History or Biblical Messianic Judaism - especially when it comes to rants done against Christianity that claim one cannot have a Jewish perspective/outlook faithful to God's Law in Christendom. That has been one of the oldest issues dealt with since 1st Century Jews had to contend with it when dealing with certain groups like the Ebionites (not all the same, of course, but ones who largely did what many modern groups do today in the name of MJism).

But if there's a desire to not stay in step with the rest of MESSIANIC Judaism and make it up as one goes along, then yes...one will always seen more of the same.

 

[annier]

MJ & mainstream Christianity, in my eyes, are like two separate arms connected to the same torso (Messiah). One arm is not the same as the other arm: they are similar in many ways but there is a difference.

Christ is the head. Despite which part of the body one is, they are ONE BODY. as in your arm Messianic, my arm Christian are one body of Messiah/ Christ. We work as one.
So what are you saying here?

 

[ananda]

Christ is the head. Despite which part of the body one is, they are ONE BODY. as in your arm Messianic, my arm Christian are one body of Messiah/ Christ. We work as one. So what are you saying here?

All I am saying is that the left arm does not equal the right arm.

 

[Shimshon]

In other words, you promote Christian missionary activity designed to bring Jews into church pews. That's fine. There are dozens of forums on CF that are in accordance with your views. Let the modern Torah Observant Messianics have one forum.

Wrong, you have presented a fallacy. We are Jews who promote faith in Yeshua to our fellow Jews, through the words of Messiah. Look, I don't have to describe MJ to identify that you just gave a gross misrepresentation of Messianic Jews. Some live in the church, so what! Some have their own shuls with a traditional Sefer Torah, ark and all. Some live inbetween. All should be treated as family, and seen as such. But then came along that dirty word, two house, that entertained Gentiles observance to Torah. That was seen as way off by the historical body and is still hotly debated. But this is where the one law doctrine got it's birth. It surpassed the two house movement by far because it took the Torah obervance for Gentiles and mixed it with traditional Judaism customs that were being practiced for centuries by traditional Messianic Jews.



You have your place under the Messianic Judaism forums. Let MJ remain what it has for centuries without misrepresenting it, and take your place under it's umbrella. But stop trying to completely subvert it. We are Jews who don't thow the whole church under the bus . We are not Christian despite Judaism. Stop the misrepresentation.

 

[annier]

Wish I could work out whether you are talking about in antiquity or today! I assumed it was today.

I am talking about today. Has Messianic Judaism become opposed to Hebrew Christians? Is it opposed to Christians, Christianity? Hebrew Christianity are Hebrew in that they are Torah observant. They are Messianic in that they are believers in Messiah. Which part of that are you opposed to, or differing from?

 

[Lulav]

Wrong, you have presented a fallacy. We are Jews who promote faith in Yeshua to our fellow Jews, through the words of Messiah. Look, I don't have to describe MJ to identify that you just gave a gross misrepresentation of Messianic Jews. Some live in the church, so what! Some have their own shuls with a traditional Sefer Torah, ark and all. Some live inbetween. All should be treated as family, and seen as such. But then came along that dirty word, two house, that entertained Gentiles observance to Torah. That was seen as way off by the historical body and is still hotly debated. But this is where the one law doctrine got it's birth. It surpassed the two house movement by far because it took the Torah obervance for Gentiles and mixed it with traditional Judaism customs that were being practiced for centuries by traditional Messianic Jews.



You have your place under the Messianic Judaism forums. Let MJ remain what it has for centuries without misrepresenting it, and take your place under it's umbrella. But stop trying to completely subvert it. We are Jews who don't thow the whole church under the bus . We are not Christian despite Judaism. Stop the misrepresentation.

I think that this is what it comes down to, and I've seen it from other Jews on here, the Torah is for Jews and not Gentiles, which from where I'm sitting, that is the other side of the coin which is the one where Gentiles say they don't have to keep the Torah because that's what the Jew's do. So in essence you are agreeing with Mainstream Christianity on Torah observance which does mean it goes against the forum definitions of what this forum is about, not representing any particular sect of MJ.

In the Torah we are told that those who join themselves to Israel shall keep the same laws. If you sagree that Gentiles should only keep the 'Noachide' laws or that they only have to keep the 10 and not keep the Torah, the Sabbath, the moedim, kosher, etc, then you are not only going against the rules of the forum but also against Torah itself, no?

But this is where the one law doctrine got it's birth.

I would disagree, and so would Torah, all the books of the Law include this.

Exodus:
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus: Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the L-RD your God.

Numbers:
One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
and
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

Deuteronomy:
Gather the people together , men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear , and that they may learn , and fear the L-RD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law

 

[annier]

Wrong, you have presented a fallacy. We are Jews who promote faith in Yeshua to our fellow Jews, through the words of Messiah. Look, I don't have to describe MJ to identify that you just gave a gross misrepresentation of Messianic Jews. Some live in the church, so what! Some have their own shuls with a traditional Sefer Torah, ark and all. Some live inbetween. All should be treated as family, and seen as such. But then came along that dirty word, two house, that entertained Gentiles observance to Torah. That was seen as way off by the historical body and is still hotly debated. But this is where the one law doctrine got it's birth. It surpassed the two house movement by far because it took the Torah obervance for Gentiles and mixed it with traditional Judaism customs that were being practiced for centuries by traditional Messianic Jews.



You have your place under the Messianic Judaism forums. Let MJ remain what it has for centuries without misrepresenting it, and take your place under it's umbrella. But stop trying to completely subvert it. We are Jews who don't thow the whole church under the bus . We are not Christian despite Judaism. Stop the misrepresentation.

Ya know, Does anyone here, and I mean anyone, have any official capacity to be speaking for the Messianic people?
Just think about the other faith groups here. Somebody or somebodies were they whom were in a position to have authority to both form and define what that group believed, and who they were and what they are.
But would it be allowed for those that disagreed with some in that formed the faith group to come into it, and steal their title all together as a faith group?
Nor do they appear to officially speak for the MJAA, were those which coined the name change from Hebrew Christianity, to Messianic Judaism. It seems to me that unless someone has an official position within that faith group to speak for them, this site would be best, to defer to their views as best as possible, and their arms (affiliates) which many in here openly mock as abc groups.
The current mentality now present would be equal to Catholics opposed to the pope, and the college of bishops, coming in and writing an op for the forum which allowed them to militate against that institution. Why is this allowed to be happening here?

 

[Avodat]

I am talking about today. Has Messianic Judaism become opposed to Hebrew Christians? Is it opposed to Christians, Christianity? Hebrew Christianity are Hebrew in that they are Torah observant. They are Messianic in that they are believers in Messiah. Which part of that are you opposed to, or differing from?

None - we were not talking about me

 

[annier]

None - we were not talking about me

We were?

 

[dnc101]

Indeed, "Communion" is the common alternate English translation for "Eucharist".

Your surprise results from a perception based on your Christian upbringing. The traditional Passover seder includes a point at which those involved share a piece of matzoh. This practice was employed at Yeshua's own seder, as recorded in the Gospels.

Later, Gentile Christians threw off the elements of the seder, segregated the sharing of a random piece of bread into its own ceremony, and called that reductionist practice, "eucharist", or "communion".

In an attempt to relate to Christian visitors, Messianics will often use the terminology of "communion", but doing so is a sloppy and inaccurate use of the word. They use the word solely to be relatable to others.

Have to disagree here. The difference is that along with the Eucharist goes the doctrine of transsubstantion, where it is believed that the bread actually becomes the body of Christ as it is eaten. Same with the wine- it becomes the blood.

Communion holds that the bread only represents the body of Christ, and the wine represents His blood.

So what gg was teaching is doubly offensive and is a Catholic view, not Messianic.

Dan C