Icons and the last few years on CF

[Gxg (G²)]

It seems a few here are concerned about members who attend both MJ congregations and another church of a different denomination

Everyone is wondering if this is ok?

It is and staff have been operating this way for years at CF How we keep the confusion down, is to have the member either tote the MJ icon or have their title announce that they are MJ or their siggy.

Bottom line is somewhere in view of all their posts , we need to be able to identify them as MJ

Thanks for noting that - as I'm surprised so many have long seemed to be missing that very simple point for a long time others have been trying to say even though others have pointed it out like Brother Mark when he shared similar from long ago when similar issues were brought up:

Originally Posted by MarkRohfrietsch

Trinity: This one is easy, Christian Forums SoF is the Nicene Creed; debate by anyone in any forum against the Trinity is therefore not allowed. It is included here because (as Tish stated earlier in the thread) there are non-trinitarian members of this forum, they may post here, but may not post against trinitarian doctrine, nor promote non-trinitarian theology either.

Who is MJ enough: This one is easy too; note our rule and the parts which I highlighted in red, and my notes in green:

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Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. Do not report another member out of spite.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian. (My note: MJs are considered Christians, this rule includes stating or implying that some are not or less MJ/Christian than others)
● Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them. (This addresses the trinity)
● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
● Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.
​

If a non member is present and being disruptive; report them. If you believe that someone is using an icon of convenience to disrupt your forum; report them. State your reasons in the report, and staff will review it, and action it accordingly... it's what we do!

​

Kosher diet and MJ observance of torah: As per Tish's reply; Discussion is fine, but debating that "my way is better than your way" or you "must do this, that and/or the other thing" will not be allowed; however it's fine to state that "for me I believe that I must..." or "while I do 'this'; I may not do 'that'", would be OK providing that one does not cross the line with the flaming rules I quoted above. Debating against Kosher or Torah, whether by a member or non member is not allowed in this proposal.

It is not our desire to stifle meaningful discussion and debate; it is, however our desire to protect the members of the MJ fora, and (all) the members here from attack and harrasment; regardless of their personal levels of observance and adherence to the Torah and Kosher.

I hope that this clarifies things.

Mark
__________________

And as MessianicMommy noted directly when it comes to Messianic Judaism from a global perspective:

Other than some differences in beliefs and practice, the meaning of "Christian" and "Messianic" is pretty much synonymous. It means someone who follows Messiah.

So, if you "accept Christ" and follow him... yeah.

Originally Posted by MessianicMommy

No one is called to observe exactly the same way all the time as someone else in the rest of the world. There are different flavors of Judaism the world over due to the various places Jews live. Someone in Yemen isn't going to observe Torah or the Talmud in the same way as someone in Scandinavia. Someone in South Australia won't be observing as someone in America.
We need to recognise a healthy difference in observation where this is concerned. No one is to be condemned for difference in observation, as even in America, differences are observed from shuk to shuk. No?

....There will be different views and opinions depending on the level of one's orthodoxy as to how they feel and interact with other Orthodox Jews, with Conservative, Conservadox, Reform, Reconstructionist and any other flavor there can possibly be of other Jews............we have different levels of observance here, and those of us who believe like others here, wish to discuss that level of observance unhindered. This is not something out of the ordinary.

And yes, I have met many Jews who have had absolutely no level of Jewish upbringing come into the movement and not know what to do. They come in to learn how to have a healthy balance in their belief and observance.

"To those not familiar with being Jewish, it might appear we are keeping the law, but actually we are just being Jewish. "

.......To those not familiar with Messianic Judaism, it may seem as if we're picking at nits, but truth be told, we're working out issues together with individuals in a way that a home group or cell group might not allow.


.........How the AMC/J4J and a Messianic congregation that is aligned with a mainline protestant denomination will see and teach Torah will be entirely different from how someone in the MJAA, UMJC and any other denominational Messianic movement around the world will. In fact, our level of observance here in Germany is vastly different than the majority who are in the Beit Sar Shalom umbrella. We align more with the local Jewish community in our beliefs and practices, because we do not worship on Sun/Wed, do not keep the Christian festivals (there are many more than are observed in the USA), and how we dress. You could pick us out as different in the crowd every time.

It is not a bad thing. It is just "different".
​

While my inlaws are not affiliated with anything like the AHC, they are for all intents and purposes Hebrew Catholics. DH's grandparents are learning about their Hebrew roots thank to Dr Ruth Lapide's Q&A series on BibelTV here in Germany, and have asked us a few questions when we get together. They're in their late 70s to mid 80s and due to the climate they grew up in, knew almost nothing of Judaism.

A mom of a friend of DH's works with in the German catholic church here, and mostly in the direction of Catholic-Jewish relations. I met her when I first moved here and was surprised to see her house has as many mezuzot as ours does, as well as a Sabbath set and a few other things she picked up on a couple visits to Israel.

While I might not agree with certain doctrines or practices, I see no need to not get along or support their efforts of walking out their faith as best they see fit.

I believe some of the division, confusion and upset is the vast difference between what is perceived as the Messianic movement in North America vs elsewhere, and how we came to be as a whole in the Americas being the bulk of the disagreement. Not "One Law", "Divine Invitation", "Two House" or any of the other smaller doctrinal differences... or even the different "umbrellas" of MJ.

Yesterday, while watching a history-related documentary about the Prohibition some of this discussion came to mind. Some of the very issues we're wrestling back and forth with, are the core issues that only are seen/handled in US congregations and the vastly different flavor we have from the rest of the world due to not only our world view, but the fact of where many of the congregations were began. Between the various Methodist, Baptist, Assemblies of G-d, Presbyterian and Catholic congregations that later encorporated Messianic services, or umbrella congregations, we have ethics, doctrines and dogma tagging along for the ride. This could be the difference between one's understanding of or allowance for liturgy, wine, more Jewish practice, mode of baptism and views on salvation/obedience/works. This would also mean a different understanding of involvement in the public/government sector as far as legislating morality.

Then you have also those "we're on our own" home group types that have a mishmash of everything up above...

Here in Europe and elsewhere, you find that the movement seems to be a little more solidified... not as many doctrinal differences, though different modes of worship, levels of kashrut, and percentage of Jew and Gentile worshiping together.

I have no problems meeting with someone from the MJAA, UCMJ or MIA or any other group. I find that at the core, we truly believe many of the same things. It's in practice, and some other doctrinal issues where we have some of the split hairs. Personally, I believe in two house, but not like the MIA teaches. I gain benefit from some of their teachers, but not all. I find benefit from both major camps of the MJ movement, but not in some avenues. I find major issue with the whole of the "Karaite" Messianic groups, and that I can't seem to get along with any of them because the issue of rabbinic authority always comes up, and they're right, we're wrong. I just get tired of it and move on.

​

Most of this was addressed and well noted by several Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles - as well as by the Jewish community of non-believers who chose to speak up in regards to the issues - and it was unfortunate to see where others had to point out the history of the rules/multiple things that've occurred for ages and shared (as Messianic Jews) in noting the issue squarely for what it was (#91 /#118 )...even though it got intense at certain points because of misunderstanding on what had been said in the past.

The continual claim of "mainstream Christian being opposite of Messianic Judism/Observance of Law" - has never seemed really consistent when it comes to the reality that mainstream Messianic Judaism has never made it a point to divorce from that which was Christian (except when dealing with mainstream Churches claiming the Law/Torah are not important or that God is done with the Jewish people) - for they noted often that much of what was said was never in conflict with Love for God's Law....or Jewish culture being valued/expressed.. We already had a rather extensive thread on the issue entitled Messianic History - with great variety of Messianic Jews throughout history...proudly Jewish and Christian - and never seeing any real disconnection with the Church.

To be Messianic Jewish or with Messianic Judaism is to walk out your Jewish heritage /lifestyle in honor of Yeshua - serving Him while honoring His Law. Nothing more, nothing less....and with that comes the reality of differing understandings of how to walk out God's Torah/God's Law - but in none of that comes seeking to be anti-Torah simply because of differences in observation. That'd be akin to someone saying another is "anti-Torah"/Non-Messianic simply because one doesn't feel pressure to adhere to purity laws in Leviticus 13 (needing a priest) when it seems those cannot be walked out - even though they observe in other ways - and someone who does value purity laws chooses to wage war against those people for noting what can apply in the times we live in.

But as long as it's assumed that being a Messianic Jew (or Messianic Gentile) means that nothing "mainstream" in Christianity is ever to be referenced, there will be false scenarios brought up.

But you learn to live with it...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm not Messianic in the sense that most people mean when they call themselves Messianic. I'm more Hebrew Roots or even Church of God 7th Day (as far as I know, there is no forum for CoG.)

I've never pretended anything different. This forum is as close as I can get to my personal beliefs.

Am I not welcome here? When I ask questions, it isn't to cause division.

Just a reminder to some here....not all Messianics believe in exactly the same way......there's as much division among them as there is in mainstream Christianity.

Here is what I read in the SOP:
1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

RR,

You're welcome here - and I'm glad you took up my invite from CARM (from the Messianic Forums to others) to come over to CF. Seeing your history and your heart for Jewish culture/honoring God's Laws that has been present for years, that's one major aspect of what it means to be with Messianic Judaism...and I hope you enjoy yourself while present.

There are a couple of others who've been in similar situations - or noted where they did not have a Messianic icon....but were clearly Messianic Jewish in lifestyle - from Contra Mundum (Anglican and Messianic Jew/working in Messianic Jewish fellowship) to
Daughter of Ararat (Oriential Orthodox and Messianic as I am ) ..and of course, others such as SGM4HIM ..who has shared multiple times before on his value for Messianic culture/experience in the Messianic Jewish world ( #21 #16 #39 ) - while also identifying with being a Christian.... Desert Rose also coming to mind from her EXTENSIVE posting experience

Blessings..

 

[Shimshon]

RR,

You're welcome here - and I'm glad you took up my invite from CARM to come over to CF. Seeing your history and your heart for Jewish culture/honoring God's Laws that has been present for years, that's one major aspect of what it means to be with Messianic Judaism...and I hope you enjoy yourself while present.

There are a couple of others who've been in similar situations - or noted where they did not have a Messianic icon....but were clearly Messianic Jewish in lifestyle - from Contra Mundum (Anglican and Messianic Jew/working in Messianic Jewish fellowship) to
Daughter of Ararat (Oriential Orthodox and Messianic as I am ) ..and of course, others such as SGM4HIM ..who has shared multiple times before on his value for Messianic culture/experience in the Messianic Jewish world ( #21 #16 #39 ) - while also identifying with being a Christian.... Desert Rose also coming to mind from her EXTENSIVE posting experience

Blessings..

A place for ALL Messianic's to enjoy, Yes!

 

[Rachel Rachel]

With the wealth of information available at your fingertips, why would anyone NEED to come here and ask questions?

Why does anyone NEED to come here, period??

 

[visionary]

Why does anyone NEED to come here, period??

I know I did when I first come... things come up to help me look in a new direction.. one that wouldn't have occurred if it wasn't for this forum.. it happens to me a lot..

 

[Rachel Rachel]

RR,

You're welcome here - and I'm glad you took up my invite from CARM to come over to CF. Seeing your history and your heart for Jewish culture/honoring God's Laws that has been present for years, that's one major aspect of what it means to be with Messianic Judaism...and I hope you enjoy yourself while present.

There are a couple of others who've been in similar situations - or noted where they did not have a Messianic icon....but were clearly Messianic Jewish in lifestyle - from Contra Mundum (Anglican and Messianic Jew/working in Messianic Jewish fellowship) to
Daughter of Ararat (Oriential Orthodox and Messianic as I am ) ..and of course, others such as SGM4HIM ..who has shared multiple times before on his value for Messianic culture/experience in the Messianic Jewish world ( #21 #16 #39 ) - while also identifying with being a Christian.... Desert Rose also coming to mind from her EXTENSIVE posting experience

Blessings..

Thank you so much, GG and blessings to you as well.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thank you so much, GG and blessings to you as well.

Shalom

 

[anisavta]

I don't think anyone NEEDS to come here, but people appreciate friendships and fellowships. You don't get that from google

For me, that's the point. I don't need walls of words and doctrinal arguments. I don't need every post to be a springboard for someone's dogma. That I can get from my own Google exploration. I enjoy meeting others from all over the world who are either Normative or Messianic Jews or Gentiles who identify with Israel.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A place for ALL Messianic's to enjoy, Yes!

Indeed - a place where Messianics (who only go to Messianic Jewish Synagogues ) can be safe...a place where Messianics working in the Messianic Jewish world and that of the Church can rest - and those who also identify with the Church proudly while living out a Messianic lifestyle - loving God's Law and building bridges so that people appreciate the Jewish background/roots of the Faith they hold to which the Messiah valued.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

I know I did when I first come... things come up to help me look in a new direction.. one that wouldn't have occurred if it wasn't for this forum.. it happens to me a lot..

Yes, it's good to have like-minded people to fellowship with and to be able to learn and ask questions that can't be answered in a Google search, as someone said.

I don't mind admitting still have a few things to learn.

 

[visionary]

Indeed - a place where Messianics (who only go to Messianic Jewish Synagogues ) can be safe...a place where Messianics working in the Messianic Jewish world and that of the Church can rest - and those who also identify with the Church proudly while living out a Messianic lifestyle.

but who know the difference and understand the distinction of the believers who are here abiding in His Torah as He wants.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

but who know the difference and understand the distinction of the believers who are here abiding in His Torah as He wants.

That will always go back to what other Messianics (Tishri included) have always noted when it comes to the reality of differences in abiding in His Torah as desired - and that it's between the individual and the Lord....no different than a Chasidic Jew interacting with an Orthodox Jew and both asking the same question of who knows the difference/"understands distinction" due to differences of thought (i.e. differences in what qualifies as kosher, differences in what applies, differences in how to honor the Lord based on his instructions within Torah, etc.) when the reality is that both seek to honor God's Torah as the Lord laid out.


That has been noted for centuries when there were differing camps within the world of Judaism - each sect/camp within it seeking to honor God's Law and yet all looking different...but they sought the Lord.

 

[visionary]

That will always go back to what other Messianics (Tishri included) have always noted when it comes to the reality of differences in abiding in His Torah as desired - and that it's between the individual and the Lord....no different than a Chasidic Jew interacting with an Orthodox Jew and both asking the same question of who knows the difference/"understands distinction" due to differences of thought (i.e. differences in what qualifies as kosher, differences in what applies, differences in how to honor the Lord based on his instructions within Torah, etc.) when the reality is that both seek to honor God's Torah as the Lord laid out.


That has been noted for centuries when there were differing camps within the world of Judaism - each sect/camp within it seeking to honor God's Law and yet all looking different...but they sought the Lord.

I believe the key lies in the foundational law upon which all the other laws hang... written in stone and now to be written in heart... if they have those and observe them... then observance of the others can be part of their growing experience. One of MJ distinction is the observance of Torah in some form or fashion. They not only live it but advocate as a lifestyle to all those around them in Yeshua's style.

 

[Avodat]

I believe the key lies in the foundational law upon which all the other laws hang... written in stone and now to be written in heart... if they have those and observe them... then observance of the others can be part of their growing experience. One of MJ distinction is the observance of Torah in some form or fashion. They not only live it but advocate as a lifestyle to all those around them in Yeshua's style.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I believe the key lies in the foundational law upon which all the other laws hang... written in stone and now to be written in heart... if they have those and observe them... then observance of the others can be part of their growing experience. One of MJ distinction is the observance of Torah in some form or fashion. They not only live it but advocate as a lifestyle to all those around them in Yeshua's style.

The foundational Law must always be in place since everything will always flow from that reality"

Matthew 22:39-41 Matthew 22

Matthew 22:39-41

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
​

Seeing that there is already notice within the world of Judaism that not all things can ever be observed the same way as before (and many things were never meant for continual observance since it wasn't pertaining to all generations), there is understanding within the MJ world that observance will always have to be based in humility - and not comparing ourselves to others in thinking "Because I'm here, I'm more observant."


Yeshua often noted repeatedly what he deemed to be central in regards to that - as noted before:

Am I misunderstanding you, or are you suggesting that Hillel was a follower of Jesus? The reason I ask is because that's absolutely impossible.

Just caught this ( as I saw the thread was brought up from earlier this year) - and IMHO, misunderstanding I think is occurring - as I was not of the mindset that Hillel was a follower of Yeshua. What was said was that there were others within the school of Hiliel (i.e. his teachings, philosophies, ideals) who later came to follow Yeshua in light of how Yeshua taught many things predominately in line with the camp of Hiliel - as opposed to the school of Shammai.

It's the same as sayinmg that others were in the school of Booker T.Washington who later came to be followers of Johnny Douglass - even though Booker T.Washington and Johnny were not in the same timeframe. Hope that makes sense....and on the issue, yes - I believe Yeshua taught in accordance with the school of Hiliel predominately (as he was much in line with the Pharisees discussed in #116 , #74, #162 ) ...even though he also taught things in other camps as well - namely, the Essenes (as shared before in #2 , #26 , #30 #94, #46 , #115 , #523 ). Shalom


.....for more, one can go here, here or to any of the following (as much of it deals with his direct quotations/writings and what other rabbis have said on it):

• Rabbi Hillel
• The Seven Rules of Hillel are
• Modern Lessons From Hillel : NPR
• The Life and Teachings of Hillel
• Hillel: If Not Now, When? - Page 128
• Paul in the School of Hillel - Peculiar Press
• Cultures of the Jews: A New History - Page 155
  
• THE TEACHING METHODS OF JESUSHILLEL'
• The Seven Rules of Hillel - Dry Bones Restoration
• Hillel: If Not Now, When? - Page 129 - Google Books Result
• Seven Rules of Hillel (teachings of Hillel) -- Britannica Online
• Jesus as Rabbi 4: From Hillel to Shammai | Fishing The Abyss
• The social teachings of the prophets and Jesus - Page 167
• The Life and Teachings of Hillel - Page 99 - Google Books Result
• The Seventy Faces Of Torah: The Jewish Way Of Reading The Sacred ... - Page 55
  
  
  

Rabbi Joseph Telushkin's - a brilliant rabbi who has done a lot in bringing the Jewish world of Yeshua's time alive - made a book entitled Hillel: If Not Now, When? which is an excellent resource on the issue that I wish others kept in mind more some of the things he said. For the book talks about Hillel's teachings and how there are multiple things we can learn from him and apply to our world today. The book is fascinating and thought-provoking, and it is really inspiring me to remember Hillel's teachings and try to apply them to my own life in that never-ending effort to become a better person and member of this world (Tikkun Olam). One of the teachings that Rabbi Telushkin spoke about is what Hillel told to the man who wanted Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while he stood on one foot. It was in relation to a conversation he had with a non-Jew:


“Convert me to Judaism on the condition that you can teach me the whole Torah while I’m standing on one foot,” the non-Jew said.

Hillel replied: “What’s hateful unto you don’t do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and study.”Telushkin noted that Hillel didn’t speak about God or even Jewish law, but rather focused on ethics. Specifically, Hillel also chose the negative expression of this idea rather than say, “love your neighbor as yourself.”

Why would that be? As Telushkin notes, “Love your neighbor as yourself is a very high-minded ideal, and yet it’s hard to know what it actually is....Hillel offers a different definition because it’s something that you can more immediately incorporate into your life.”

The story with standing on one foot is a very famous story about Hillel, who, unlike his contemporary Shammai, takes up the challenge. Hillel's summary of the Torah is, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn" (Shab. 31a). And as said earlier/in other discussions, what Hiliel says draws a striking resemblance to Jesus’ words: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets ( Luke 10:26-28/Luke 10 , Mark 12:30-32 Mark 12 ) - and this is also similar toPaul’s teaching: “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." ( Galatians 5:13-15 /Galatians 5:5-7 & Romans 13:7-9 ).

Hillel's summary of the Torah shows that the most important thing for the Jews (as well as the Gentiles) is to act ethically and morally. This can relate to the necessity of doing tzedakah, because it literally means "justice" or "righteousness." Rabbi Telushkin says that Hillel did not say, "love your neighbor as you love yourself" because that is much harder to follow. For people may not always love themselves, or maybe your neighbor doesn't love the same things you do. Rather, by putting the commandment in the negative form, Telushkin argues that Hillel made this something more people could follow. What Hillel said is something that can be easy for us to put into practice in many small ways, and thereby make the world a better place for all to live in

Hope the information helps in your journey. Shalom

Okay, I'm following you now, and I couldn't agree more.

Some of this was already addressed elsewhere:

• Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
• Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

Advocacy on honoring God's Laws as Yeshua noted is and will never be an issue for those in the MJ community - although understanding what that looks like and seeing where there are differences will always be present. It's why there's room for graciousness and respect when it comes to the reality that holding what is central to be central does not mean someone else in the MJ community is going to see things the same way as you - or I - will when it comes to living that out/sharing that with others..

 

[visionary]

The foundational Law must always be in place since everything will always flow from that reality"

Matthew 22:39-41 Matthew 22

Matthew 22:39-41

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
​

Seeing that there is already notice within the world of Judaism that not all things can ever be observed the same way as before (and many things were never meant for continual observance since it wasn't pertaining to all generations), there is understanding within the MJ world that observance will always have to be based in humility - and not comparing ourselves to others in thinking "Because I'm here, I'm more observant."

Some of this was already addressed elsewhere:

• Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
• Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

Advocacy on honoring God's Laws as Yeshua noted is and will never be an issue for those in the MJ community - although understanding what that looks like and seeing where there are differences will always be present. It's why there's room for graciousness and respect when it comes to the reality that holding what is central to be central does not mean someone else in the MJ community is going to see things the same way as you - or I - will when it comes to living that out/sharing that with others..

and anyone chipping at the foundational law needs to be identified as not part of the MJ community at bare minimium.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

and anyone chipping at the foundational law needs to be identified as not part of the MJ community at bare minimium.

That will always be a matter of what others have noted when it comes to what is said in the MJ Community with differences in what observation is about - no different than the Orthodox Jews saying the Chasidic are "chipping away" or the MJish assuming one has to walk according to purity laws from Leviticus 13 and thinking other MJs who don't think that's possible (due to a lack of a priest) don't "value God's Law" - for what matters is what CHRIST and the Apostles noted (which was building upon the foundation set by Mosaic Law and previous Covenants) - and if not going with them, ultimately, one ends up going against what has been held central in the MJ Community (mainstream/the origins of the movement from the 1960s) and Jewish believers since day 1 of the Body being made 1,000 of years ago.

It's one thing for others to say "Torah is foolish!!!" or claiming that "Nothing from Torah is important - it's all done away with!!!" - for those things will never be a matter of truly valuing the Foundational Law. Those are the things that keep someone from being identified as not part of the MJ Community. However, discussing the importance of the Law/seeing how it is to be lived out is another - one of the reasons discussion has occurred over how/why we do not stone others to death when they commit a sin like it was in the Civil Law of Israel (as that wasn't the culture WE live in) and it's one of the reasons believers didn't practice the same even though it was in the Mosaic - for they knew that certain things didn't apply in the same way as before. There are several other variations of the issue that've occurred - from what is defiend as Kosher....to seeing how others (be it Jew or Gentile) keep Sabbath since some feel that they should gather in communities on the Sabbath like in the OT while others feel the OT required one to remain at HOME for the Sabbath....to noting times where the Lord Christ seemed to respond differently to people than the judges/magistrates did in the OT (i.e. touching those who were unclean without becoming "unclean", etc.)..

If going on what has been said in the MJ movement since its inception, it is a matter of upholding the Law of God when discussing how it is applied today - and it is also seen as chipping away when others, zealous for it, make claims on how the Law applies for others even when the Lord and the Law never did such. ...as what matters is representing God's Law - for Jew and Gentile - the way that it was when it was developed. That's something many see as being at stake - for it doesn't go with historical consistency to do otherwise and that will never be a matter of walking out things as the Lord intended.

And what the Apostles noted was very direct:

1 John 3:13-15
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We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:20
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If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
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1 John 3
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Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
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If one isn't committed to doing love for neighbors as Christ noted, they're really not commited to doing things in the interpretation of Covenant that Yeshua required.

Apostle John was very direct on it and spoke in no uncertain terms

John 13:34-35
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“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:8-18
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This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.


Romans 13:8
[ Love, for the Day Is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

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Galatians 5:6
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For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

James 2:8
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8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[] you are doing right.9
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[HannibalFlavius]

I don't think anyone NEEDS to come here, but people appreciate friendships and fellowships. You don't get that from google

Yup, came here hoping to form a long term fellowship.

Forums turn into family members.

After years, even the people you most disagree with seem like family.

 

[visionary]

That will always be a matter of what others have noted when it comes to what is said in the MJ Community with differences in what observation is about - no different than the Orthodox Jews saying the Chasidic are "chipping away" or the MJish assuming one has to walk according to purity laws from Leviticus 13 and thinking other MJs who don't think that's possible (due to a lack of a priest) don't "value God's Law" - for what matters is what CHRIST and the Apostles noted - and if not going with them, ultimately, one ends up going against what has been held central in the MJ Community and Jewish believers since day 1 of the Body being made....

Long winded sentence...but yeah for the most part... I think the biggest complaint is from those who have left things found in churches, like eucharist, sunday, christmas, easter, halloween, pigs in diet, etc.. that find it promoted in this corner of the forum.. to be too little away from the things of this world for their taste in Him.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Long winded sentence.

Inconsequential statement as it concerns the facts, unless it is the case that we have examination of every point in history where you were long-winded or others felt you were such when it wasn't even relevant to what was being said by yourself As others have said, there's little room attempting side commentary on sentences when it's not necessary and all have done so.

...but yeah for the most part... I think the biggest complaint is from those who have left things found in churches, like eucharist, sunday, christmas, easter, halloween, pigs in diet, etc.. that find it promoted in this corner of the forum.. to be too little away from the things of this world for their taste in Him

That complaint is understood by many - although what has been noted is how often others have complained counter to that when others assume all things of/within the Church are negative..or assume that to do certain things (i.e. Eucharist, celebrating with believers on Sunday, celebrating Christmas from a Biblical perspective, etc) are automatically "error" simply because others feel strongly on it. For many, there have been multiple times they noted that such things were reasonably done by other Jewish believers or Messianics - and people were being stereotyped for the ways things were done wrongly in the Church.


There were plenty of Jewish believers historically and in large numbers who celebrated the Eucharist as a reflection of Jewish heritage with what was done in the synagogues - and celebrating Divine Liturgy as a reflection of what was done in the temple. They never advocated a lot of stereotypes like thinking eating pig as a Jew was "wonderful" - even though they didn't argue that Gentiles were not allowed to do so since Christ nor the Apostles did so. The same thing goes for Easter (or Ressurection Day) - seeing how many noted the reasons why events evolved as they did....and although they condemned the roots of things as far as they didn't have Biblical origin, they didn't condemn believers wholesale for involvement in it since there were always variations. And they didn't do things like Halloween in the Church because they knew how demonic it was in origin - even though others in the Church also spoke against it while some were for it. Not knowing those distinctions has led to a lot of misunderstanding when people ascribe negatives unto all as a whole that not all were even for. That is why many on this forum have often spoken/shared experiences with others as it concerns what they've seen in living life of Christ.