Hebrews 6:4-6

[98cwitr]

preaching that our sins will be held against us at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

“See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”[a]

Might wanna check your theology there sir.

 

[Hentenza]

I have provided a rather lengthy exposition of this passage on my homepage in the article, 'Once saved, always saved or once saved, lost again: An exposition of Hebrews 6:4-8'.

The essence of these verses is that those who have known the Lord and lived a Christian life and then commit apostasy (repudiate the Christian faith), it is impossible to restore such people to repentance. Apostasy is a horrible sin to commit that leads to damnation.

I can't make a decision about your condition before God. I only know my own heart. If I were you, I'd be asking and answering what I ask of myself: Have I turned away from God to the point where I have committed apostasy? For me, the answer is, No. But I can't answer for you.

Oz

That is not what the verse teaches. Those that are apostate are able to return to God. Please look at the preceding chapter to get the context for chapter six. Also, other biblical evidence points to the ability of the apostate to return to the faith. In my opinion, everyone has until the last moment of breath to proclaim the Lord as their savior.

 

[OzSpen]

That is not what the verse teaches. Those that are apostate are able to return to God. Please look at the preceding chapter to get the context for chapter six. Also, other biblical evidence points to the ability of the apostate to return to the faith. In my opinion, everyone has until the last moment of breath to proclaim the Lord as their savior.

And you provide not one skerrick of biblical evidence.

I have pored over Heb 6:4-8 for many years and have examined the chapter in context and have provided a lengthy examination of my evidence in, 'Once saved, always saved or once saved, lost again'. When one commits apostasy, there is no further possibility of repentance as this passage teaches.

Committing apostasy is a very serious sin against God after one has 'been enlightened', 'tasted the heavenly gift', has 'shared in the Holy Spirit', and has 'tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come' (ESV languagage). Then they commit parapitw (aorist tense) - point action in the past - apostasy. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon states the word means, 'fall away, commit apostasy' (p. 626).

Are you arguing with Arndt & Gingrich's definition of the Greek word and the meaning of the aorist tense?

In Christ, Oz

 

[Hammster]

Nowhere at any time have I stated that I believe in sinless perfection. I do not.

So in this response you have erected a straw man logical fallacy to misrepresent my position. Please quit your misrepresentation of my theology.

I understand Heb. 10:26-27 correctly as well:

The New Living Translation has correctly translated the essence of the Greek present tense with 'continue sinning' and this is deliberately. This is deliberate sinning that continues on and on. For these people, their sins are no longer covered by Jesus' shed blood and they can now expect God's judgment.

That's Bible and it is what Heb. 10:26-27 teachers. This harmonises with those who committed apostasy according to Heb 6:4-8 and it is impossible to restore them again to repentance (Heb. 6:4).

Oz

Well, either you've stopped sinning, or you are claiming that your sins are accidental. Which is it?

 

[MWood]

“See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”[a]

Might wanna check your theology there sir.

What is this??

You are taking the last part of one sentence and making an out of context comment? Do you also read and study your Bible in the same way? You need to show me how you do this, so we may be of the same mind and one accord!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"I have a sin I have been trying to kick for 4 years now."

I've got one I've been trying to deal with for 51 years. Clue: YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT in your OWN strength - PERIOD.

"I pray and repent over and over, and yet I still fall."

As we all do. nothing unusual there for a Christian.

"It is tearing me up inside and leaves me feeling hopeless, and asking myself why. Usually I only do it when I'm tired or stressed."

The ENEMY is probably telling you that your STUPID, and WEAK, and Hopeless, and will NEVER GET IT RIGHT - HEY!! God doesn't like you any more, and, and, and. That's what the enemy does, and he's GOOD at it.

God's voice will convict you of SIN, but He'll NEVER rip or tear or condemn. if there's a "Criticism" it'll be communicated in LOVE, and sadness.

"I was doing my devotions this morning and came across Hebrews 6:4-6 and panicked."

You need to take the Grammar of the verse into consideration - what it really says is that WHILE you are running in rebellion against God, you CAN'T come back - UNTIL you repent of the rebellion. Doesn't sound like you're in THAT Boat - you're troubled by a "Besetting Sin" that you haven't found victory over yet. most of us have things that we haven't been able to "Get by" yet.

1 John 2:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I had a pastor in Saline, MI a bit ago, who had a "Besetting sin" (I don't know what it was - he didn't say) - but he "Did it" again, and after confessing it to God, and repenting, he said, "I'm so sorry that I did it again".

He sensed the Holy Spirit saying to him: "Did what, again??"

The bible says that confessed sins are REMOVED, and gone. And the Spirit just reminded him that it was true.

 

[OzSpen]

Well, either you've stopped sinning, or you are claiming that your sins are accidental. Which is it?

The verse is talking about sinning deliberately but you don't seem to want to see that as different from 'accidental' sins.

Ham, why don't you admit the real difference between my understanding of Scripture and yours? It has to do with apostasy and your view doesn't seem to allow for it for someone who has truly been saved? The Bible does allow for it in Heb 6:4-8; 10:26-27, etc.

Who was it who shipwrecked their faith?

Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:19-20 ESV).

I'm quitting this conversation with you as we are getting nowhere.

Bye, Oz

 

[98cwitr]

Can someone give me an example of an "accidental sin," I've always been taught (and reason suggests) that all sins are deliberate.

 

[OzSpen]

Can someone give me an example of an "accidental sin," I've always been taught (and reason suggests) that all sins are deliberate.

Hebrews 10:26 uses the Greek adverb, ekousiws, translated as 'deliberately' by the ESV and NIV. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as 'willingly ... without compulsion, i.e. deliberately, intentionally' (p. 242).

It is different from what you are inferring as the consequence of this deliberate, intentional sin is that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume adversaries' (Heb 10:26-27 ESV).

This is the damnable consequence of apostasy. I know what this sin looks like in effect as two of my fellow theological college students who were born again Christians have apostasised from the faith. To have a conversation with them today is like talking to an atheist - but worse - as they make horrible statements about 'been there, done that'. Their inside knowledge makes discussions with them horrific.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

The verse is talking about sinning deliberately but you don't seem to want to see that as different from 'accidental' sins.

Ham, why don't you admit the real difference between my understanding of Scripture and yours? It has to do with apostasy and your view doesn't seem to allow for it for someone who has truly been saved? The Bible does allow for it in Heb 6:4-8; 10:26-27, etc.

Who was it who shipwrecked their faith?
I'm quitting this conversation with you as we are getting nowhere.

Bye, Oz

The passage isn't talking about losing salvation. It's sad that you think the Great Shepherd could lose His sheep.

The writer is talking to Jews. If they reject Christ, their sacrificial system will not benefit them. That's why there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

But hey, only have conversations with those who agree with you. That way you'll never be challenged.

(Oh, and the 1 Tim passage says nothing about them losing their salvation.)

 

[98cwitr]

Hebrews 10:26 uses the Greek adverb, ekousiws, translated as 'deliberately' by the ESV and NIV. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning as 'willingly ... without compulsion, i.e. deliberately, intentionally' (p. 242).

It is different from what you are inferring as the consequence of this deliberate, intentional sin is that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume adversaries' (Heb 10:26-27 ESV).
This is the damnable consequence of apostasy. I know what this sin looks like in effect as two of my fellow theological college students who were born again Christians have apostasised from the faith. To have a conversation with them today is like talking to an atheist - but worse - as they make horrible statements about 'been there, done that'. Their inside knowledge makes discussions with them horrific.

Oz

Understood, but sins such as adultery and lying seem to lead to death as well (Rev 21:8); where's the distinction?

 

[Hammster]

Can someone give me an example of an "accidental sin," I've always been taught (and reason suggests) that all sins are deliberate.

All sin is deliberate. Accidental sins are imagined by folks who think that they are doing enough to keep themselves saved. They should be ignored, or rebuked as false teachers.

 

[SalvationAtYourFingertips]

An accidental sin is a sin you didn't mean to do. An example, would be tripping. You tripped. Did you do it out of faith? No. You sinned. Yes, tripping is a sin, if God tells you not to do it. If He tells you to do it, it's not a sin. Now if you do it without Him telling you not to do it, you still sinned, only on accident. There are also other types of sins. Like unknown sin, where you sin but you didn't know it was a sin. Like tripping! Now as for the blasphemy of the Spirit, you can only commit it by returning to willful sins after you are baptized in the Spirit. This of course means a full abandonment of God, not simply falling into sin and being stuck for a while. If you are still desiring to be with God, He won't drop you. You can also blaspheme the Holy Spirit by sinning defiantly towards Him. That means you sin with a smile on your face repeatedly. God hates this and He's not gonna tolerate it. Believe it or not I know of someone who did this. She was forgiven eventually, but it wasn't through the blood of Jesus. It was because God decided in heaven that she would be forgiven of her sins. This was pretty rare.

 

[OzSpen]

The passage isn't talking about losing salvation. It's sad that you think the Great Shepherd could lose His sheep.

The writer is talking to Jews. If they reject Christ, their sacrificial system will not benefit them. That's why there remains no more sacrifice for sins.

But hey, only have conversations with those who agree with you. That way you'll never be challenged.

(Oh, and the 1 Tim passage says nothing about them losing their salvation.)

The passage is doing more than talking about losing salvation. It is talking about the believer who commits apostasy (repudiates the Christian faith), for whom 'there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins'. That's the apostasy from which there is no return, as Heb. 6:4-8 confirms.

It's sad that you think the Great Shepherd is not telling us the truth when he writes about committing apostasy in Heb 6:4-8 and Heb 10:26-27 for which there is no return to repentance.

The context of Hebrew 10:26-27, no matter how much you want it to refer to Jews, tells us that the writer to the Hebrews is writing to Christians. We know this from these verses in Ch. 10:


Heb 10:10, “By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (ESV)

Heb 10:15, “And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us....”

Heb 10:19, “Therefore, brothers and sisters since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,”

Heb 10:22, “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith….”

Heb 10:23, “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering….”

Heb 10:24, “And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works.”

Heb 10:25, “Not neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another.…”

Heb 10:26, '“For if we go on sinning deliberately….”

Ham, you know that that is a false statement that I only have conversations with those who agree with me. I have conversed with many on this forum over years who have disagreed with me. Please quit lying about the content of my conversations on CF.

You don't seem to like the challenges that I am making to your view on apostasy.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

All sin is deliberate. Accidental sins are imagined by folks who think that they are doing enough to keep themselves saved. They should be ignored, or rebuked as false teachers.

Are you referring to me as a false teacher who should be ignored and rebuked?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Understood, but sins such as adultery and lying seem to lead to death as well (Rev 21:8); where's the distinction?

I posted this previously in this thread but you seem to have missed it as I made the distinction then.

Therefore, this is what we can expect from God if that is what we :
26 Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins. 27 There is only the terrible expectation of God’s judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies (Heb 10:26-27 NLT).

The NLT has gotten the essence of the Greek present tense with 'continue sinning' and this is deliberately. This is deliberate sinning that continues on and on.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

The passage is doing more than talking about losing salvation. It is talking about the believer who commits apostasy (repudiates the Christian faith), for whom 'there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins'. That's the apostasy from which there is no return, as Heb. 6:4-8 confirms.

It's sad that you think the Great Shepherd is not telling us the truth when he writes about committing apostasy in Heb 6:4-8 and Heb 10:26-27 for which there is no return to repentance.

The context of Hebrew 10:26-27, no matter how much you want it to refer to Jews, tells us that the writer to the Hebrews is writing to Christians. We know this from these verses in Ch. 10:


Heb 10:10, “By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (ESV)

Heb 10:15, “And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us....”

Heb 10:19, “Therefore, brothers and sisters since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,”

Heb 10:22, “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith….”

Heb 10:23, “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering….”

Heb 10:24, “And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works.”

Heb 10:25, “Not neglecting to meet together as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another.…”

Heb 10:26, '“For if we go on sinning deliberately….”

Ham, you know that that is a false statement that I only have conversations with those who agree with me. I have conversed with many on this forum over years who have disagreed with me. Please quit lying about the content of my conversations on CF.

You don't seem to like the challenges that I am making to your view on apostasy.

Oz

You are the one who said you were quitting the conversation because of our disagreements. We're you lying?

As to the text, it's a Jew trying to preach a better Prophet, Priest, and King. So the use of inclusive pronouns is natural language.

 

[Hammster]

Are you referring to me as a false teacher who should be ignored and rebuked?

Oz

It's not about you.

 

[Hammster]

I posted this previously in this thread but you seem to have missed it as I made the distinction then.


The NLT has gotten the essence of the Greek present tense with 'continue sinning' and this is deliberately. This is deliberate sinning that continues on and on.

Oz

Since you've been saved, have you ever looked at a woman with lust? Lied? Been angry at a brother? Not done things to glorify God?

 

[OzSpen]

Since you've been saved, have you ever looked at a woman with lust? Lied? Been angry at a brother? Not done things to glorify God?

Again you refuse to accept what I wrote and try to make it say something other than what I stated.

Oz