The "Free Will" Dilemma

[janxharris]

Will or did? When? How did their stony, unrepentant hearts change, and where does it say they did? I'm not too hot on the OT, so help me out.

Deuteronomy 30:2
and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,

Of course, this would only happen when they stop resisting the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 28 - the blessing and the curses...

 

[janxharris]

While we're talking about Acts 7:51 can you incorporate the bit where it says "...you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you," into your answer to my previous question?

Stephen was talking to the Sanhedrin, so he is making the point they are as they are because they have resisted the Holy Spirit. He is not saying everyone has resisted the Holy Spirit.

 

[janxharris]

If the influence is irresistible then the outcome will be too, otherwise the influence is impotent.

The minute you resist an irresistible influence it becomes a resistible influence. Can you not see that?

Surely the Holy Spirit comes upon all men, but, as Acts 7:51 says, it can be resisted.

Perhaps I didn't choose my words carefully.

It talks in Romans 1 of men and women being 'given over' to there lusts..in other words, if you continue in your sin then the Holy Spirit will draw back. That is my understanding, anyway.

 

[janxharris]

As usually happens, a synergist will post a verse out of context, assume its meaning, and a monergist will have to exegete the passage.
Okay, so be it.

But you must say the things that are consistent with sound teaching. Older men are to be level headed, worthy of respect, sensible, and sound in faith, love, and endurance. In the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to much wine. They are to teach what is good, so they may encourage the young women to love their husbands and to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, kind, and submissive to their husbands, so that God’s message will not be slandered. In the same way, encourage the young men to be self-controlled in everything. Make yourself an example of good works with integrity and dignity in your teaching. Your message is to be sound beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be ashamed, having nothing bad to say about us. Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back or stealing, but demonstrating utter faithfulness, so that they may adorn the teaching of God our Savior in everything. For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works. (Titus 2:1-14 HCSB)

Notice the types of people Paul is talking about. Old and young men. Old and young women. Salves and masters. Etc.

Then he says "For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

Now, if "all people" means every single person who has ever lived, then you'd have to say that all people are being instructed to deny godlessness, and to live sensibly (which I'm sure you will). But it would be in error to say that all men are waiting for the blessed hope.

All people may well be instructed, just as all children might be taught at school; it doesn't prevent the possibility that some children might have learnt just about nothing when they leave.

The 'we' of:
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

might only refer to believers and those that might believe.

 

[janxharris]

No, because I believe that He does. But you've used that passage to support prevenient grace and made resisting the Spirit equivalent to resisting prevenient grace.

Can't we just talk about the Holy Spirit?

 

[janxharris]

Who is doing the accusing?

Al just did.

 

[janxharris]

I most certainly will - straight after you tell me what YOU think it's about and why it would be a problem for a Reformed believer.

It is not necessarily a problem for the Calvinist, but the return to the land and the circumcision of the heart follow a 'returning to the lord'. Of course, as I have already said, such 'returning to the lord' happens under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and when we do not resist Him.

 

[janxharris]

Like I said, God gave you the tools (prevenient grace) and whether you're humble enough to admit failure totally depends on you. You make the difference. Good on ya!

Yes.

 

[janxharris]

So the influence can't be resisted? How does that not violate your free will?

I meant that the Holy Spirit comes upon all men and His influence is felt, but that does not mean that He (the HS) is heeded.

 

[janxharris]

Janx, what is prevenient grace? I've never actually seen you define it.

Why do I have to define it?

 

[janxharris]

It seems the synergists here aren't in agreement.

Question: Can prevenient grace be resisted? Janx says no, Oz says yes. Can we get some clarification? Maybe we can check the Bible... oh wait nevermind the Bible doesn't talk about this. My bad.

This is a misrepresentation griff.

Acts 7:51

 

[janxharris]

So what is the "it" they resist?

As you have said, the HS is a Him, which men resist.

You do agree that the HS is resisted don't you?

 

[janxharris]

Where does the scripture say that the Holy Spirit works on all men? Don't use John 16:8 which says that He convicts the "world" of sin because Jesus had just identified the "world" as the Jews in John 15:18-25.

So offer us something that CLEARLY says that the Holy Spirit works on all men indiscriminately.

Firstly, why would you think the Holy Spirit doesn't work on all men?

Romans 1:18-24; Romans 2:14,15.

I can't see that Jn 15:18-25 defines 'world' as you say it does.

 

[janxharris]

I actually was complementing the Reformed camp and you viewed this as "flaming," ie, I just got out of trouble on another thread hence will be more low key for a little while. Thank you again.

I, too, find it difficult to understand what you are trying to say shturt678.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Interesting...you say that the man could choose any colour, but are you also saying he was predetermined to choose whichever colour he chose?

That's a separate issue. I'm illustrating that omniscience and free will aren't incompatible as Ed has argued.

 

[janxharris]

That's a separate issue. I'm illustrating that omniscience and free will aren't incompatible as Ed has argued.

And I agree with you.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Surely, the answer is simply that not all learn from the teaching (cf. Jn 6:45).

Oz has taken these verses out of context to prove a non-existent point. I'm not going to debate the same non-existent point against you. Read the preceding 10 verses for context, then we can discuss it if you wish.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Deuteronomy 30:2
and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today,

Of course, this would only happen when they stop resisting the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 28 - the blessing and the curses...

You haven't answered my question. This verse says nothing about changing their unrepentant hearts.

However, this may help you:

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

Who provides the means to understand Janx? Show me the prevenient grace given to ALL men.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The Holy Spirit's work on ALL people is inferred in verses such as:

• Acts 17:30, 'The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he command ALL people EVERYWHERE to repent' (ESV, emphasis added); and

These verses are very clear, unless one has an agenda to redefine ALL in a a priori fashion to agree with one's theology.

Verse 31 goes on to say that God has given "all men the assurance that He has raised Jesus from the dead."

If "all" means what you say it means, then explain how some men who had heard of the resurrection of Christ denied it.

Furthermore, there were Gentiles in Paul's time who had never heard of Jesus Christ and His resurection. Yet it says that God has given "all men" the assurance of it.

It is very clear, unless one has an agenda to redefine ALL in a a priori fashion to agree with one's theology.

 

[janxharris]

You haven't answered my question. This verse says nothing about changing their unrepentant hearts.

However, this may help you:

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

Who provides the means to understand Janx? Show me the prevenient grace given to ALL men.

Understand what? See or hear what?

Romans 2:14,15; Romans 1:18 onwards; John 16:8; Acts 7:51

Show me that the Holy Spirit does not come to all men. Why would ever consider that God would withhold himself from some men? That would be unfair wouldn't it?