The "Free Will" Dilemma

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elman

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you keep quoting Ezekial which has nothing to do with the new covenant. That proves nothing. Tell us, are you going to turn from righteousness to wickedness in the future? If you say "no", how are you so sure?

Why does the teaching of Ezekiel about the death of the soul have no meaning for us now? What did Jesus do that resulted in no need to turn from wickedness to righteousness? Did Jesus change the equation that the consequences of sin is death? When Jesus taught we must repent or perish, was He teaching some out of date ideas that Ezekiel had? You can say you are not going to turn from righteousness to wickedness in the future, but God has created you with the ability to turn to wickedness and you do not have the ability to know what the future holds.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Not sure that we/I have to deal with the term 'prevenient grace'...isn't it enough that the HS works on all men?
Where does the scripture say that the Holy Spirit works on all men? Don't use John 16:8 which says that He convicts the "world" of sin because Jesus had just identified the "world" as the Jews in John 15:18-25.

So offer us something that CLEARLY says that the Holy Spirit works on all men indiscriminately.
 
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shturt678

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I'm sorry, but your posts make no sense. It seems that you are flaming the reformed folk. Maybe you should try being a bit less cryptic.

:):) I actually was complementing the Reformed camp and you viewed this as "flaming," ie, I just got out of trouble on another thread hence will be more low key for a little while. Thank you again. :blush:
 
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Hammster

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:):) I actually was complementing the Reformed camp and you viewed this as "flaming," ie, I just got out of trouble on another thread hence will be more low key for a little while. Thank you again. :blush:

I appreciate the compliment. You could have just said that without all of the cryptic language.
 
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OzSpen

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Don't really see a dilemma with free will...
Welcome to the Forum. I'm pleased that you have joined us.

If there is no dilemma with free will, as you see it, does that mean that you accept that when it comes to salvation in Christ that people can choose to accept or reject the offer? Or, do you have another view?

In Christ, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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I agree none is needed. So why do you keep doing it?
Please explain to this person how he committed eisegesis. Saying that he did it without providing the evidence proves nothing. You have not demonstrated that this is what he did.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Where does the scripture say that the Holy Spirit works on all men? Don't use John 16:8 which says that He convicts the "world" of sin because Jesus had just identified the "world" as the Jews in John 15:18-25.

So offer us something that CLEARLY says that the Holy Spirit works on all men indiscriminately.
The Holy Spirit's work on ALL people is inferred in verses such as:

  • Acts 17:30, 'The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he command ALL people EVERYWHERE to repent' (ESV, emphasis added); and
  • Titus 2:11, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bring salvation for ALL people' (ESV, emphasis added).
These verses are very clear, unless one has an agenda to redefine ALL in a a priori fashion to agree with one's theology.

Brushing aside John 16:8 is a false accusation as John 15:18-19 states:
“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you (ESV).
Jesus was addressing his disciples with a message for all Christians. The world of people 'hates you' as it hated Jesus (v 18). 'If you were of the world' (these are Jewish disciples so it can't refer to Jews in general), 'the world would love you as its own' BUT 'because you are not of the world' (this is not referring to the Jewish nation), the world hates you disciples.

I find it untrue to say that the 'world' in context only refers to the Jews as these disciples were Jews.

John 16:8 refers to the Holy Spirit convicting the world of all people (as John 3:16 affirms) concerning righteousness, judgment, and their own sin.

John 16:8 is a good verse for the Holy Spirit's ministry to all people. And this is supplemented with Acts 17:30 and Titus 2:11.

Oz
 
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guuila

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Welcome to the Forum. I'm pleased that you have joined us.

If there is no dilemma with free will, as you see it, does that mean that you accept that when it comes to salvation in Christ that people can choose to accept or reject the offer? Or, do you have another view?

In Christ, Oz

This is the view I have. People can choose whichever they want. Accept or reject. Only difference between us is I believe acceptance is God's gift to man. You believe it's man's gift to God.

Red herring accusation in 3...2...1...
 
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guuila

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The Holy Spirit's work on ALL people is inferred in verses such as:

  • Acts 17:30, 'The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he command ALL people EVERYWHERE to repent' (ESV, emphasis added); and
  • Titus 2:11, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bring salvation for ALL people' (ESV, emphasis added).
These verses are very clear, unless one has an agenda to redefine ALL in a a priori fashion to agree with one's theology.

Brushing aside John 16:8 is a false accusation as John 15:18-19 states:
Jesus was addressing his disciples with a message for all Christians. The world of people 'hates you' as it hated Jesus (v 18). 'If you were of the world' (these are Jewish disciples so it can't refer to Jews in general), 'the world would love you as its own' BUT 'because you are not of the world' (this is not referring to the Jewish nation), the world hates you disciples.

I find it untrue to say that the 'world' in context only refers to the Jews as these disciples were Jews.

John 16:8 refers to the Holy Spirit convicting the world of all people (as John 3:16 affirms) concerning righteousness, judgment, and their own sin.

John 16:8 is a good verse for the Holy Spirit's ministry to all people. And this is supplemented with Acts 17:30 and Titus 2:11.

Oz

Can prevenient grace be resisted? Go ahead and tell me how this demonstrates that I don't understand prevenient grace. Then accuse me of committing some logical fallacy without any explanation. Then once you do that, it would be cool if you could actually answer the question for once. It's a yes or no question. Shouldn't take you long to answer.
 
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OzSpen

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Can prevenient grace be resisted? Go ahead and tell me how this demonstrates that I don't understand prevenient grace. Then accuse me of committing some logical fallacy without any explanation. Then once you do that, it would be cool if you could actually answer the question for once. It's a yes or no question. Shouldn't take you long to answer.
Another red herring.:liturgy:
 
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janxharris

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Here we disagree. While I agree that will is limited to some extent, there is no incompatibility between free will and omniscience, and no gymnastics required. Free will and predestination is another story.

A man is given three coloured counters and told to keep one of them. The choice he makes is totally free - he chooses red.

Before time began (however that is interpreted) God foresaw the choice of a red counter.

Logically therefore, the man could never choose any other colour but red, otherwise God's foreknowledge would be faulty. But the doesn't take away the fact that (in time) the man's choice was free. This is compatible free will. However, if the man had chosen the green counter, and he could have, then that is what God would have seen in His foreknowledge.

The reason that the will remains free is that omniscience is an observational trait, exerting no influence on a man's decision.

Omnipotence is the trait that makes the changes.

Predestination and free will deals with the influence of God on a man's actions and is a totally different argument. I believe in predestination as a scriptural truth, and the relationship between it and our perceived free will is a mystery to me, and I suspect anyone else. What we can plainly say is that God is in the driving seat and doesn't have to react to any surprises we pull on him. His will WILL be done and His influence in changing, hardening and softening hearts is all over the Bible like a rash.

Interesting...you say that the man could choose any colour, but are you also saying he was predetermined to choose whichever colour he chose?
 
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janxharris

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Well you DO support the view that Titus 2:11 and onward represents Grace to the whole world don't you?

Let's look at what it goes on to say:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Oz, is the whole world in training to renounce worldly passions; has salvation come to all people (or just the offer of salvation maybe, which seems to be how you've rewritten it); are we training to live godly upright lives in the present age, waiting for the blessed hope of Christ's return?

Do you believe that salvation is for all people as you'd have Paul say here, or might there be another explanation?

Surely, the answer is simply that not all learn from the teaching (cf. Jn 6:45).
 
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