The "Free Will" Dilemma

[Hammster]

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

So the Holy Spirit is equivalent to prevenient grace?

 

[Hammster]

Irresistible influence but not an irresistible outcome. Acts 7:51.

Thanks. That's the first time I've seen anyone say the prevenient grace is irresistible.

 

[janxharris]

Thanks. That's the first time I've seen anyone say the prevenient grace is irresistible.

I'm saying that the HS comes upon all men, but that does not mean that men always follow what the HS is saying to them; they resist as it says in Acts 7:51.

 

[janxharris]

So the Holy Spirit is equivalent to prevenient grace?

Not sure that we/I have to deal with the term 'prevenient grace'...isn't it enough that the HS works on all men?

 

[Hammster]

?

As usually happens, a synergist will post a verse out of context, assume its meaning, and a monergist will have to exegete the passage.
Okay, so be it.

But you must say the things that are consistent with sound teaching. Older men are to be level headed, worthy of respect, sensible, and sound in faith, love, and endurance. In the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to much wine. They are to teach what is good, so they may encourage the young women to love their husbands and to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, kind, and submissive to their husbands, so that God’s message will not be slandered. In the same way, encourage the young men to be self-controlled in everything. Make yourself an example of good works with integrity and dignity in your teaching. Your message is to be sound beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be ashamed, having nothing bad to say about us. Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back or stealing, but demonstrating utter faithfulness, so that they may adorn the teaching of God our Savior in everything. For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for Himself a people for His own possession, eager to do good works. (Titus 2:1-14 HCSB)

Notice the types of people Paul is talking about. Old and young men. Old and young women. Salves and masters. Etc.

Then he says "For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

Now, if "all people" means every single person who has ever lived, then you'd have to say that all people are being instructed to deny godlessness, and to live sensibly (which I'm sure you will). But it would be in error to say that all men are waiting for the blessed hope.

 

[Hammster]

Not sure that we/I have to deal with the term 'prevenient grace'...isn't it enough that the HS works on all men?

No, because I believe that He does. But you've used that passage to support prevenient grace and made resisting the Spirit equivalent to resisting prevenient grace.

 

[Hammster]

I'm saying that the HS comes upon all men, but that does not mean that men always follow what the HS is saying to them; they resist as it says in Acts 7:51.

First off, the Holy Spirit isn't an "it". HE is God.

Secondly, you are still saying that prevenient grace is equivalent to the Holy Spirit. Is that because you think He's an "it"?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Then he says "For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

Now, if "all people" means every single person who has ever lived, then you'd have to say that all people are being instructed to deny godlessness, and to live sensibly (which I'm sure you will). But it would be in error to say that all men are waiting for the blessed hope.

Which is exactly the point I was making to Oz before he disappeared, calling it a straw man. Sheesh.

 

[guuila]

How do you respond to the accusation that God picked your name out of a hat griff? Did he?

If you can show me a verse that says that, I'll believe it.

 

[Hammster]

Which is exactly the point I was making to Oz before he disappeared, calling it a straw man. Sheesh.

It's easier to just throw out a blanket accusation without support. Then, it seems, if you ask for clarification, all you get is a definition (see all of the red herring accusations). You never get why the accusation was leveled.

This, I think, is an effort to distract.

 

[Hammster]

How do you respond to the accusation that God picked your name out of a hat griff? Did he?

Who is doing the accusing?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Okay...please do.

I most certainly will - straight after you tell me what YOU think it's about and why it would be a problem for a Reformed believer.

 

[guuila]

This is expected as you do not believe in it according to Titus 2:11. Is that verse cut out of your Bible?

Oz

Is "don't do eisegesis" cut out of your Biblical Hermeneutics for Dummies book?

 

[guuila]

If faith is accepting that we are unable without God working through us to get right with God, then where is the boast? One is actually admitting failure.

Like I said, God gave you the tools (prevenient grace) and whether you're humble enough to admit failure totally depends on you. You make the difference. Good on ya!

 

[guuila]

When will you accurately represent those who believe in prevenient grace by quoting theologians who believe the Bible teaches such. I have tried to do that in my definition. But what do you do, you create a straw man of your own making.

Okay. Care to demonstrate how it's a straw man? Or are we all supposed to just take your word for it?

Please quit the false representations of prevenient grace and of my view.

Oz

Until you show me how they are misrepresentations, I cannot.

 

[guuila]

Irresistible influence but not an irresistible outcome. Acts 7:51.

So the influence can't be resisted? How does that not violate your free will?

 

[guuila]

Janx, what is prevenient grace? I've never actually seen you define it.

 

[guuila]

So from what I can tell, neither prevenient grace nor irresistible grace can be resisted. Here is the difference between the two:

Prevenient grace - God gives man the tools necessary to pull himself up by his bootstraps and bring himself to God. May or may not result in salvation. Depends on the man and if he's good enough to obey and quit being stubborn.

Irresistible grace - God brings man to himself giving everything required for salvation, including the desire to be saved, faith and repentance that will persevere to the end, resulting in salvation every single time.

And the synergists like Oz want us to believe the one that results in salvation is a horrible thing. Huh.

 

[guuila]

It seems the synergists here aren't in agreement.

Question: Can prevenient grace be resisted? Janx says no, Oz says yes. Can we get some clarification? Maybe we can check the Bible... oh wait nevermind the Bible doesn't talk about this. My bad.

 

[Hammster]

It seems the synergists here aren't in agreement.

Question: Can prevenient grace be resisted? Janx says no, Oz says yes. Can we get some clarification? Maybe we can check the Bible... oh wait nevermind the Bible doesn't talk about this. My bad.

In the Horton/Olsen discussion, Olsen admitted that prevenient grace is implicit, not explicit.