The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

[Timothew]

At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is good news for those whose Lord is Jesus Christ. Rather bad news for those who reject Jesus Christ, since they will not receive eternal life, not in hell being tortured, or anywhere else. According to the Bible, The wicked will be destroyed.

The wages of sin is death. Dead means "not alive".
In order to have eternal life, a person has to be "not dead".
In order to be "not dead", a person has to have their sins forgiven, because the wages of sin is death.

 

[ChetSinger]

Hell is temporary. It's the lake of fire that's eternal.

 

[Tigger45]

Matt 25:46, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."

 

[drstevej]

Matt 25:46, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."

This thread is done.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is good news for those whose Lord is Jesus Christ. Rather bad news for those who reject Jesus Christ, since they will not receive eternal life, not in hell being tortured, or anywhere else. According to the Bible, The wicked will be destroyed.

The wages of sin is death. Dead means "not alive".
In order to have eternal life, a person has to be "not dead".
In order to be "not dead", a person has to have their sins forgiven, because the wages of sin is death.

Over and over and over, the same old arguments and the same handful of out-of-context proof texts.

The wages of sin is death. But the Bible does not say death, resurrection, then death again. I'm sure you have been told before, that everybody has sinned and everybody dies And it is appointed to man once to die then the judgment. That means everybody, the good, the bad and the ugly.dies.

You are aware that in addition to the story of the rich man and Lazarus there are scriptures that describe dead men in Sheol speaking, moving, etc. The Bible says nothing about their sins being forgiven. There quite evidently is some kind of conscious awareness which is not "eternal life."

 

[saspian]

At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is good news for those whose Lord is Jesus Christ. Rather bad news for those who reject Jesus Christ, since they will not receive eternal life, not in hell being tortured, or anywhere else. According to the Bible, The wicked will be destroyed.

The wages of sin is death. Dead means "not alive".
In order to have eternal life, a person has to be "not dead".
In order to be "not dead", a person has to have their sins forgiven, because the wages of sin is death.

Yes, I think some Christian reasoning goes along those lines.
S.D.A., I think teaches soul sleep, based on an O.T. tract "the dead know nothing at all' but also speak of the second resurrection......not sure of any Hellfire then?? I imagine the wicked will be given every chance to come up to scratch.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

Yes, I think some Christian reasoning goes along those lines.
S.D.A., I think teaches soul sleep, based on an O.T. tract "the dead know nothing at all' but also speak of the second resurrection......not sure of any Hellfire then?? I imagine the wicked will be given every chance to come up to scratch.

"the dead know nothing at all" is another out-of-context proof text. Shall we read it in context?

Ecc 9:3-11
(3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
(4) For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
(7) Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
(8) Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.
(9) Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
(11) I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.​

Notice the author uses the phrase "under the sun" four times in these verses. This is not talking about man's eternal fate but what happens in this life, under the sun.

"the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." if your proof text means what you claim then not even Christians will have any reward after death.

 

[Timothew]

Matt 25:46, "And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life."

Yep, I agree with that. Do you believe that the everlasting punishment is death, (as the Bible says is the wages of sin) or eternal conscious torment in hell (which is conspicuously absent from the Bible)?

 

[Timothew]

Over and over and over, the same old arguments and the same handful of out-of-context proof texts.

Out of context!? Not really. Here is the context:
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As you can see, Paul's context clearly says that the fruit of sin is death, the wages of sin is death. Paul never says that the wages or outcome of sin is eternal life in hell being tortured.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

Yep, I agree with that. Do you believe that the everlasting punishment is death, (as the Bible says is the wages of sin) or eternal conscious torment in hell (which is conspicuously absent from the Bible)?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

What is "their part?" What is the part of others who are cast into the lake of fire? See Rev 20:10.

 

[Tigger45]

Yep, I agree with that. Do you believe that the everlasting punishment is death, (as the Bible says is the wages of sin) or eternal conscious torment in hell (which is conspicuously absent from the Bible)?

I understand what you're saying and I wish it were true but I don't believe that that's what ment by the second death. Have you ever read what the early church fathers that actually were discipled by the Apostles believed?

 

[C.O.Ioves]

I understand what you're saying and I wish it were true but I don't believe that that's what ment by the second death. Have you ever read what the early church fathers that actually were discipled by the Apostles believed?

For example,

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Treatise 8 On Works And Alms

Assuredly he may fear to die, who, not being regenerated of water and the Spirit, is delivered over to the fires of Gehenna; he may fear to die who is not enrolled in the cross and passion of Christ; he may fear to die, who from this death shall pass over to a second death; he may fear to die, whom on his departure from this world eternal flame shall torment with never-ending punishments; he may fear to die who has this advantage in a lengthened delay, that in the meanwhile his groanings and his anguish are being postponed.​

 

[Timothew]

I understand what you're saying and I wish it were true but I don't believe that that's what ment by the second death. Have you ever read what the early church fathers that actually were discipled by the Apostles believed?

Yes I have.

Did you know that Irenaeus believed that the "continuance of existence" ceases for non believers?


If you wanted to describe a condition where a person lives forever in torment, would you call it the second death? (I wouldn't)
If you wanted to describe what happens to someone who dies again after they have been resurrected for judgment, would you call it the second death? (I would)

If you "knew" that the penalty for sin was eternal conscious torment in hell, would you write to the Romans that the wages of sin is death?

Read John 3:16, there are two possible outcomes, perishing or having eternal life.

 

[Timothew]

For example,

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Treatise 8 On Works And Alms

Assuredly he may fear to die, who, not being regenerated of water and the Spirit, is delivered over to the fires of Gehenna; he may fear to die who is not enrolled in the cross and passion of Christ; he may fear to die, who from this death shall pass over to a second death; he may fear to die, whom on his departure from this world eternal flame shall torment with never-ending punishments; he may fear to die who has this advantage in a lengthened delay, that in the meanwhile his groanings and his anguish are being postponed.​

Yes, there are those who believed that there is eternal conscious torment. I'm saying that the Bible does not support that. The early church was mixed in opinion, just as we are today.

 

[Timothew]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [a person] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

What is "their part?" What is the part of others who are cast into the lake of fire? See Rev 20:10.

How many eyes did Jesus have? I can "prove" from the Book of Revelation that He has 7 eyes.

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slaughtered, but it was now standing between the throne and the four living beings and among the twenty-four elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the sevenfold Spiritc of God that is sent out into every part of the earth.

Do you want to take a passage out of context from the Book of Revelation which is full of symbolism and use that passage (which doesn't even say that wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tortured alive forever while they are dead) to overturn all of the rest of the Bible?


The Book of Revelation also says that the lake of fire is the second DEATH. Why do you not believe that the lake of fire is the second death? How could John have made this more clear to you?

 

[RDKirk]

The question is only relevant if one stands in judgment of God.

At least, according to the Bible.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is good news for those whose Lord is Jesus Christ. Rather bad news for those who reject Jesus Christ, since they will not receive eternal life, not in hell being tortured, or anywhere else. According to the Bible, The wicked will be destroyed.

The wages of sin is death. Dead means "not alive".
In order to have eternal life, a person has to be "not dead".
In order to be "not dead", a person has to have their sins forgiven, because the wages of sin is death.

 

[Timothew]

The question is only relevant if one stands in judgment of God.

God's word says that the penalty for sin is death. I don't stand in Judgment of God for that, do you? Do you think God made a mistake and the penalty for sin ought to be eternal conscious torment in the hot place?

 

[RDKirk]

God's word says that the penalty for sin is death. I don't stand in Judgment of God for that, do you? Do you think God made a mistake and the penalty for sin ought to be eternal conscious torment in the hot place?

When you get up in the morning to go about God's mission for you...what difference does it make?

Now, if it makes a difference in whether or not I give witness to what God has done for me, then it's relevant. But I can't see how it does that unless I demand that God first pass my moral muster.

 

[Timothew]

When you get up in the morning to go about God's mission for you...what difference does it make?

Now, if it makes a difference in whether or not I give witness to what God has done for me, then it's relevant. But I can't see how it does that unless I demand that God first pass my moral muster.

Who is demanding that God passes a moral muster? I certainly am not demanding that God passes MY moral muster. Are you claiming that I have done this? What are you saying? That unless I believe that God tortures people in Hell, that He fails my "Moral Muster"? Doesn't it matter AT ALL what the BIBLE says? According to the BIBLE, the wages of sin is Death, NOT ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORTURE in Hell. So my "moral muster" has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

I might as well say that you think God fails YOUR moral muster because He says that the wicked will perish instead of being tortured alive forever. Does God fail to live up to your exacting standard of righteousness because the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture in hell?

 

[C.O.Ioves]

How many eyes did Jesus have? I can "prove" from the Book of Revelation that He has 7 eyes.

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slaughtered, but it was now standing between the throne and the four living beings and among the twenty-four elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the sevenfold Spiritc of God that is sent out into every part of the earth.

Do you want to take a passage out of context from the Book of Revelation which is full of symbolism and use that passage (which doesn't even say that wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tortured alive forever while they are dead) to overturn all of the rest of the Bible?

The Book of Revelation also says that the lake of fire is the second DEATH. Why do you not believe that the lake of fire is the second death? How could John have made this more clear to you?

Ah yes! The old "Illegitimate Totality Transfer" fallacy. "If there is one figure of speech in a passage, we can dismiss the entire chapter, or book as symbolic." However, "If the plain sense, makes good, sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." Thus you must show how the vss. are symbolic as I do with Rev 5:6, below.

We can be fairly certain that there is no literal "lamb" with seven eyes, and horns. And we know that eyes are not horns, are not spirits, and literal eyes and horns are not sent forth into all the world, so we can safely say that is figurative. But with the passages I quoted nothing indicates they are not literal.

If you make the charge that something is out-of-context, you need to prove it. I'm waiting.

You are correct the book of Revelation does say that the lake of fire [LOF] is the second death. Why do you not take that as figurative since you are trying to argue that the 4 vss. I quoted are figurative? Nowhere in Revelation does it state that anyone or anything dies after being cast into the LOF. If as you are trying to argue that being thrown into the LOF explicitly results in death, how can three living creatures one of which is a human, be thrown into the LOF and not die, Rev 20:10?