Music in church....(tin hat on)

[Ascendo]

I'm not really sure why you'd source those people as authorities on this issue.

According to the Scriptures, how does a beat - not even a rock beat, ANY beat - appeal to the flesh?

Is it merely liking the beat? Is it thinking a beat sounds cool, or "extra-rhythmic?" Is it a certain speed that is fleshly? Or a certain pattern?

I'm not disputing that there has been rock music that is worldly. I wouldn't dispute that any music style can be worldly. But please give evidence (non-anecdotal, Biblical evidence) that a style would be taboo.

 

[ActionJ]

I'm not really sure why you'd source those people as authorities on this issue.

According to the Scriptures, how does a beat - not even a rock beat, ANY beat - appeal to the flesh?

Is it merely liking the beat? Is it thinking a beat sounds cool, or "extra-rhythmic?" Is it a certain speed that is fleshly? Or a certain pattern?

I'm not disputing that there has been rock music that is worldly. I wouldn't dispute that any music style can be worldly. But please give evidence (non-anecdotal, Biblical evidence) that a style would be taboo.

Lot's of interesting, scientific studies on the subject. I found this finding to be interesting:

Anapaestic Beat
The anapaestic beat is used in most hard rock music; it consists of
two rapid beats followed by a long beat as in Tahta tara, Tahta tara,
Tahta tara.
In an experiment using applied kinesiology Dr John Diamond played
different kinds of music to people through headphones. When music with
an anapaestic beat was played volunteers would immediately lose muscle
strength and have to lower their arms. The
anapaestic beat seems to interrupt the natural rhythm of the heart
causing stress to the body.
Dr. Diamond found a direct link between muscle strength and music. He
found that listening to hard rock causes all the muscles in the body
to go weak. The normal pressure required to overpower a strong deltoid
muscle in an adult male is about 40/45 pounds, when hard rock music is
played, only 10/15 pounds of pressure is needed to push down the arm.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/soc.culture.indian/dWg0F3NNvag

Here's another:

[FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-1]Neuroscientists Daniel and Bernadette Skubik provide a concise explanation of how the rock beat affects the muscles, the mind, and the hormone levels. "Rhythm for which drums provide or generate the basic beat, produces measurable responses in the body’s muscular system, brainwave patterns and hormone levels. Briefly, (1) muscle coordination and control become synchronized with the basic beat; (2) brainwave activity itself aligns with the rhythm so generated; and (3) various hormones (specifically, opiates and sex hormones) are released as a result of electrophysiological synchronization with the rhythm. These results have been regularly documented by various researchers, and though individual subjects may vary in their response over narrow ranges of controlled input, all normal subjects have reacted as indicated when the rhythm exceeds 3-4 beats per second–roughly speaking a rhythm exceeding the rate of the average heartbeat."[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial][SIZE=-2]21[/SIZE][/FONT] Untitled Document

There are many more studies on the effects of rock's "back beat" or "off beat." It truly does have an effect on the body and the mind with or without lyrics.

As for providing specific Scripture opposing the rock beat? I have none to offer. Nor can I offer any specific Scriptures opposing the use of heroin or meth.

 

[Ascendo]

Studies which show a physiological response to a beat doesn't make it bad...

If you would have dug further into those studies they also say that listening to fast classical music has the same responses.

And there are Scriptures that would apply to heroin or meth.

And you still haven't addressed anything other than this insidious "back beat" or "off beat." Is that just the term you use to describe beats you don't like?

Every music has rhythm. Does merely applying a rock beat to something make it suddenly worldly? Or is it giving a beat an accent?

You've made something cultural and extra-biblical into something taboo. That's perfectly fine, for you, personally. But that doesn't give you license to peddle your philosophy as doctrine.

 

[ActionJ]

Studies which show a physiological response to a beat doesn't make it bad...

If you would have dug further into those studies they also say that listening to fast classical music has the same responses.

And there are Scriptures that would apply to heroin or meth.

And you still haven't addressed anything other than this insidious "back beat" or "off beat." Is that just the term you use to describe beats you don't like?

Every music has rhythm. Does merely applying a rock beat to something make it suddenly worldly? Or is it giving a beat an accent?

You've made something cultural and extra-biblical into something taboo. That's perfectly fine, for you, personally. But that doesn't give you license to peddle your philosophy as doctrine.

1) You apparently didn't read the studies thoroughly (there are many others like them).
2) I don't know any hymns that are sung to "fast classical music" (in other words ... I haven't heard Amazing Grace sung to The Flight Of The Bumble Bee) but having listened to all sorts of music over the years I disagree that classical music (fast or otherwise) can be compared to the hard rock beat.
3) I'm a conservative Christian posting in the "Conservative Christian" forum so you can hardly expect me to be something other than conservative.
4) If you prefer to listen to "Heavy Metal Christian" music then please be my guest but don't expect others to share your personal taste in music based on your personal opinions.
5) There are literally ZERO passages of Scripture that specifically deal with heroin or methamphetamine.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[Simon_Templar]

A couple of points...

#1 I don't think that contemporary praise music, or even christian rock style music is inherently bad or anything like that. I think it has its place.

#2 the first question you should ask about this kind of thing is WHY. Why do you want to introduce this music into your worship service. Specifically, do you want to introduce it to please yourself, to gratify your own tastes, do you want to introduce it to market your church and be "relevant" or do you want to introduce it really because you think God desires it, and that it is pleasing to God?
The point being worship is not about you. If you are going to define your worship by what you like, or by what you think the "young folk" like... you might as well just skip it because at that point, you aren't really worshiping God anymore. You are making worship about something other than offering something pleasing up to God.

#3 Music has character. This is not to say that some music is "good" and other music is "bad", but it is simply a fact that different kinds of music have different character and are suited to different things. From my personal experience I can say that there are some kinds of music that I like to listen to when exercising, and other types that kill me when I'm exercises. There are some types of music that make me want to dance, and other types that make me want to sit and think.
My point being that I believe there are some types of music that are well suited to worship, and other types that are not. I think many people confuse anything "uplifting" as good worship music. In this they are confusing things that make them feel positive or make them feel good, with things that are conducive to offering ourselves up to God. The two are not always the same.

 

[Wolftone]

A couple of points...

#1 I don't think that contemporary praise music, or even christian rock style music is inherently bad or anything like that. I think it has its place.

#2 the first question you should ask about this kind of thing is WHY. Why do you want to introduce this music into your worship service. Specifically, do you want to introduce it to please yourself, to gratify your own tastes, do you want to introduce it to market your church and be "relevant" or do you want to introduce it really because you think God desires it, and that it is pleasing to God?
The point being worship is not about you. If you are going to define your worship by what you like, or by what you think the "young folk" like... you might as well just skip it because at that point, you aren't really worshiping God anymore. You are making worship about something other than offering something pleasing up to God.

#3 Music has character. This is not to say that some music is "good" and other music is "bad", but it is simply a fact that different kinds of music have different character and are suited to different things. From my personal experience I can say that there are some kinds of music that I like to listen to when exercising, and other types that kill me when I'm exercises. There are some types of music that make me want to dance, and other types that make me want to sit and think.
My point being that I believe there are some types of music that are well suited to worship, and other types that are not. I think many people confuse anything "uplifting" as good worship music. In this they are confusing things that make them feel positive or make them feel good, with things that are conducive to offering ourselves up to God. The two are not always the same.

Can I thank you for your excellent post? Your questions are ones that I have asked myself and there certainly is an aspect of self gratification I have to admit.

The reason that we need to change our music (not the message obviously!) is that some of the music we play is deemed dreary and now fails to inspire and raise the level praise. The other Sunday, we played our opening hymn (a psalm) on organ only. Nobody knew the tune and the tune followed no patterns. The congregation mumbled and stumbled its way through. the comments at the end weren't favourable.

When we play the more up to date songs which, by most measures these days, are fairly sedate (King of Kings, Oh Church arise etc.) the congregation become visibly elevated in their praise, the singing becomes louder and more energetic and I believe that God is praised more earnestly.

The second part of my response is the slightly selfish bit.

Most old hymns cannot be played on guitar and if they can, the guitar cannot be strummed but only finger picked. That said, I am fairly good at finger picking but many of our old hymns require a skill level way above my capability and, even then, they don't really sound right. Modern hymns are designed to accommodate guitar and I feel more included in the praise as a consequence.

The other and main reason that drives my need is the story as to how I came by my church guitar.

For a while I had been dissatisfied with my Takamine. It didn't sound right or feel right. Previously I had been into a music shop and had played a Tanglewood TW45 which played beautifully and sounded perfect. I couldn't justify the purchase of that guitar so kept playing the Takamine. I still looked on the second hand listings for a used one. I couldn't find one anywhere.

One weekday, I had taken a day off to go into Belfast to lodge a cheque into the bank. This only took a short while and I still had plenty of time on my parking ticket. There had been an excellent guitar shop about a mile out of town that I had been told had shut down. For some inexplicable reason, I started walking to the shop that I knew had shut down. As I was walking, I couldn't explain why I was going. The only thing I can remember thinking was "I wonder what's there now?".

Anyway, I got to the shop and it was, as I expected, in darkness. I looked in the window and could see movement so I pushed the door and it was open. I was surprised to see that there was stock still on the wall. I asked the guy behind the counter if I could take a look around. He said that I could but I was lucky to find him there as he was only there for a little while doing an audit. The shop had been shut for weeks and the stock had now been bought by this guy's company.

I walked to the back of the shop where I could remember the acoustic guitars had been displayed. I looke up at the top row (about six feet up) and in the very corner, in the gloom...what did I see? It wasn't the TW45 I had been looking for but the top of the range flagship guitar, the TW47!!

I asked if I could play it. The guy got it down for me and was exceptional with its gold hardware and its solid mahogany construction. When I strummed it, it really sung! I then looked at the price tag...£699. It was expensive and my heart sank.

I asked the guy about the price and he thought for a bit and said;

"If you have it today,you can have it for £500 and I'll throw in a hard case"

I still have the guitar and it will stay with me, praising God until I die.

The reason?

God got me that guitar. My journey to the shop was nonsense. There was no reason on God's earth why I should have made that trip but I did. God led me to that guitar so I could use it to lift the praise in his church.

God works in a fantastic and miraculous way. He uses our skills to contribute to his glory.

God want's me to lift the praise.

Amen to our glorious Lord God Almighty!

I just love him!

 

[ActionJ]

Here's an absolutely beautiful, modern praise hymn sung to a very light, rock beat. I thoroughly enjoyed the message, the harmony, and the melody but I was completely distracted by the drum beat and the cymbal. After many years of listening to rock & roll my ears are tuned to pick up the thumping, background beat. This song would be more fabulous without it, in my personal opinion. Do I believe the artists are evil or sacrilegious for using the drums? Nope! I simply believe the message is where the praise of God is made known while the back beat detracts (or distracts) from it:

In Christ Alone - YouTube

 

[WannaWitness]

Here's an absolutely beautiful, modern praise hymn sung to a very light, rock beat. I thoroughly enjoyed the message, the harmony, and the melody but I was completely distracted by the drum beat and the cymbal. After many years of listening to rock & roll my ears are tuned to pick up the thumping, background beat. This song would be more fabulous without it, in my personal opinion. Do I believe the artists are evil or sacrilegious for using the drums? Nope! I simply believe the message is where the praise of God is made known while the back beat detracts (or distracts) from it:

In Christ Alone - YouTube

I like it! I detected sort of a Celtic-pop flavor to it. The music is something anyone can appreciate, and most importantly, the message comes through loud and clear.

 

[Alithis]

Hi all,

Our church in County Down has gone from a wheezing harmonium to a good little band within ten years. Our band comprises, bass guitar, electro-acoustic guitar, piano, full traditional organ (can be other instruments too e.g. strings etc), flute and clarinet.

The problem we have is that our music leader (real nice man) is incredibly traditional and has only accepted these changes as a result of pressure from the congregation. At every opportunity, he slides back into eighteenth century mode! The challenge is to introduce drums which many consider a step into hell itself!

Our music is from the Mission Praise collection with all the modern stuff played but not as frequently as I would like. Our youth fellowship have expressed their desire to go full modern and our thrust at the moment is actually develop our youth segment.

Question - How have you updated your music praise? How have you overcome objection without upset?

belated reply to the op ..

Find a music and worship "leader" .. that is to say , find a person who absolutely loves the lord Jesus and immerses him/her self in worship of the lord with psalms and spiritual songs and whose heart is after God(pursuing God).. may be the one you have if you listen ..maybe not

the point is - the music style and form is not paramount to in-depth sincere worship .
the state of the heart and attitude of the heart - IS .

and a good band leader does not automatically make a good worship leader.
how can a person lead into spiritual worship of the lord if they do not enter into it themselves .
a leader can only lead others as far as they themselves go .

 

[Simon_Templar]

Can I thank you for your excellent post? Your questions are ones that I have asked myself and there certainly is an aspect of self gratification I have to admit.

The reason that we need to change our music (not the message obviously!) is that some of the music we play is deemed dreary and now fails to inspire and raise the level praise. The other Sunday, we played our opening hymn (a psalm) on organ only. Nobody knew the tune and the tune followed no patterns. The congregation mumbled and stumbled its way through. the comments at the end weren't favourable.

When we play the more up to date songs which, by most measures these days, are fairly sedate (King of Kings, Oh Church arise etc.) the congregation become visibly elevated in their praise, the singing becomes louder and more energetic and I believe that God is praised more earnestly.

The second part of my response is the slightly selfish bit.

Most old hymns cannot be played on guitar and if they can, the guitar cannot be strummed but only finger picked. That said, I am fairly good at finger picking but many of our old hymns require a skill level way above my capability and, even then, they don't really sound right. Modern hymns are designed to accommodate guitar and I feel more included in the praise as a consequence.

The other and main reason that drives my need is the story as to how I came by my church guitar.

For a while I had been dissatisfied with my Takamine. It didn't sound right or feel right. Previously I had been into a music shop and had played a Tanglewood TW45 which played beautifully and sounded perfect. I couldn't justify the purchase of that guitar so kept playing the Takamine. I still looked on the second hand listings for a used one. I couldn't find one anywhere.

One weekday, I had taken a day off to go into Belfast to lodge a cheque into the bank. This only took a short while and I still had plenty of time on my parking ticket. There had been an excellent guitar shop about a mile out of town that I had been told had shut down. For some inexplicable reason, I started walking to the shop that I knew had shut down. As I was walking, I couldn't explain why I was going. The only thing I can remember thinking was "I wonder what's there now?".

Anyway, I got to the shop and it was, as I expected, in darkness. I looked in the window and could see movement so I pushed the door and it was open. I was surprised to see that there was stock still on the wall. I asked the guy behind the counter if I could take a look around. He said that I could but I was lucky to find him there as he was only there for a little while doing an audit. The shop had been shut for weeks and the stock had now been bought by this guy's company.

I walked to the back of the shop where I could remember the acoustic guitars had been displayed. I looke up at the top row (about six feet up) and in the very corner, in the gloom...what did I see? It wasn't the TW45 I had been looking for but the top of the range flagship guitar, the TW47!!

I asked if I could play it. The guy got it down for me and was exceptional with its gold hardware and its solid mahogany construction. When I strummed it, it really sung! I then looked at the price tag...£699. It was expensive and my heart sank.

I asked the guy about the price and he thought for a bit and said;

"If you have it today,you can have it for £500 and I'll throw in a hard case"

I still have the guitar and it will stay with me, praising God until I die.

The reason?

God got me that guitar. My journey to the shop was nonsense. There was no reason on God's earth why I should have made that trip but I did. God led me to that guitar so I could use it to lift the praise in his church.

God works in a fantastic and miraculous way. He uses our skills to contribute to his glory.

God want's me to lift the praise.

Amen to our glorious Lord God Almighty!

I just love him!

Great story it's awesome how God provides for us!

I often times tend to get overly down on people who see worship as depending on emotion. The church I grew up in was very emotionalist and worship was completely defined by feeling and emotion. Ultimately I came to realize that it was very self-centered, and also often times fake. After years of experience I began to realize that the people who were the most emotional, the most fervent were usually the most messed up internally and the most fake.

But, honestly, we all want to worship in a way that we enjoy. That's natural and obviously God wants us to enjoy worship too. I'm just very wary of turning worship into emotionalism, or into a concert/show.

As a traditionalist, I also see praise and worship as two different things. praise is involved in worship, but praise is not the same thing as worship. From my point of view, worship is defined by sacrifice, and therefore it is defined primarily by Communion.

Since I became a Catholic, I must admit the music is the one thing that I wish were different. Catholics tend to play everything too slow and about 3 people sing while everyone else either mumbles or just stands there

But I've also found that if we give ourselves to worship, none of that window dressing stuff really matters all that much. I can help us get to worship, and it can maybe hinder us if we let it.. but it isn't the main thing.

 

[tobethebest]

Hi all,

Our church in County Down has gone from a wheezing harmonium to a good little band within ten years. Our band comprises, bass guitar, electro-acoustic guitar, piano, full traditional organ (can be other instruments too e.g. strings etc), flute and clarinet.

The problem we have is that our music leader (real nice man) is incredibly traditional and has only accepted these changes as a result of pressure from the congregation. At every opportunity, he slides back into eighteenth century mode! The challenge is to introduce drums which many consider a step into hell itself!

Our music is from the Mission Praise collection with all the modern stuff played but not as frequently as I would like. Our youth fellowship have expressed their desire to go full modern and our thrust at the moment is actually develop our youth segment.

Question - How have you updated your music praise? How have you overcome objection without upset?

There are all types and styles of music in the church world today. Personally I appreciate the conservative side without all the drama that is being incorporated with today's secular sounds. I can't tolerate secular music behind spiritual lyrics. It ruins the reason behind the worship.

Back in the seventies, the music was where it was well controlled with nothing overbearing, nothing took away from the love of God's word and the want for the presence of the Spirit of God. It was wonderful. It was refreshing and we were all young and still desiring to know God and His presence above all the rest.

Mosh pits are the hippest thing in some circles, tambourines running up and down the hallways, loud sermons, loud music in general.

I am one of thousands of military veterans who came home with tinnitus. It is a debilitating condition. Listen to the video called The Devil's Symphony and you will get a clue as to the damage we tinnitus sufferers endure. Mine is from loading artillery shells. or 5" 38's on a destroyer without proper ear protection. It wasn't available then and even today it would be difficult to calm the thunder of any 5"38 going off.

Anyway, calm, easy worship music makes far better sense than damaging people's eardrums, creating tinnitus, taking a portion of a child's hearing early in life from loud theatre sounds.

It is what has caused many of my friends to not attend church anymore. The noise, the catering to young adults who feed on that noise and consider it touching God in some way. For me and my family, the best thing we ever did was step back, then another step until we were gone.

 

[Wolftone]

I can't tolerate secular music behind spiritual lyrics. It ruins the reason behind the worship.

I hear you but remember today's old hymns were secular in the 17th century!

Times move on although I have to say that I question the validity of Christian Heavy Metal...it just sounds totally wrong to me. It's as if the music was never designed to have good and righteous words sung to them.

Perhaps I'm just getting old....

 

[simran123]

Best way to learn how to play worship songs on guitar online. Easy to follow step-by-step process.Very affordable compared to private lessons.

learn how to play worship guitar
learn to play worship guitar
learn to play worship songs on guitar
learn to play worship songs on guitar online

You can learn guitar at your own pace. I learnt guitar by paying $50 per hour. which was out of my budget and then after few sessions, I had to quit. But then My friend suggested me to learn guitar online and referred me - howtoplayworshipsongsonguitar.com. Which was quite interesting and reasonable. Now I write and play worship songs on guitar..

 

[busdriver72]

After much thought I have come to one of two conclusions:

- Make sure that NO worship music is pleasing to the flesh at all...meaning we must make sure that no one likes or enjoys the tune. We must strive to make it sound like a combination of a cat yowling and someone sick to their stomach...but alas...there'll probably be someone that likes it.

- OR...just take a chance ... bust out in your best wailing guitar solo...engage the Ace Frehley smoking pickups...break the guitar in half and then throw it into the congregation!

...


...

...uhhh....wait....okay...I'm better now....sorry....

 

[Knee V]

If I may...

Growing up in Evangelical circles, I never cared much for "CCM". But the issue was never the style. My problem with it in general, at least it seemed this way to me, was that the overwhelming vast majority of the songs were void of any significant content, and seemed to be mostly emotionally-charged songs that weren't very worshipful. It always seemed that so many of the songs were songs "about worship" but without actually worshipping. I couldn't have cared any less of the music was done with a piano or a rock band; I just wanted something meaningful, and I never felt that most of the "contemporary" music fit that bill.

One beef that I have with much of the music from the past several centuries, even many that we would consider to be "classical hymns" is that we force so many of those songs to rhyme. Not that they're all bad songs which rhyme. But I think that many of those songs could be so much better if we didn't try to force them to rhyme and be in standard time signatures.

 

[Knee V]

Here is a very old song. It is the oldest extra-biblical Christian hymn, dating from around the end of the 1st century. It is sung in the evening and marks the transition from one day to the next.

There is of course a lot of folk Christian music that I enjoy, but when it comes to corporate worship, I think that the wheel doesn't need a whole lot of re-inventing.

O Gladsome Light Byzantine Chant - YouTube

 

[Gentlemantech48]

In general I think our worship services do not show reverence to God and are more for pleasing young people than for serious worship. It's my opinion that a worship service should be just that....Worship! I don't think happy, clapping hands kind of music belongs in a worship service. I think there should be two types of church services. One should only have very worshipful music that reminds the congregation that God is holy and worthy of "high worship". There can then be another service of celebration where we celebrate what God has done for us using the hand clapping, fun kind of music.

I have a dream about a church that I would like to start. I would like to call it "The Electronic Church". There would be no need for a choir, a song leader, or even a pastor. I see very worshipful music playing from the time we enter the sanctuary, people going forward to pray or to be prayed for, a quiet, reverent atmosphere where you feel the presence of The Lord. This can all be done with recorded music. The sermon can be a variety of pastors using DVD's. The Sunday school can be all recorded DVD's with some of the best teachers in the world. Sunday school can even be a theological course with regular tests and a diploma upon completion. How many dry Sunday School teachers have we heard where they read from a Quarterly and do not challenge us to grow?

Anyone in the St Louis, MO area interested in starting such a church?

 

[busdriver72]

In general I think our worship services do not show reverence to God and are more for pleasing young people than for serious worship. It's my opinion that a worship service should be just that....Worship! I don't think happy, clapping hands kind of music belongs in a worship service. I think there should be two types of church services. One should only have very worshipful music that reminds the congregation that God is holy and worthy of "high worship". There can then be another service of celebration where we celebrate what God has done for us using the hand clapping, fun kind of music.

So we should take joy and celebration out of worship?
Psalm 33:3
Psalm 47:1-9
Psalm 95:1-2
Psalm 100:1-2
Psalm 144:9
Psalm 150:1-6

You are also passing judgment in that a celebrative style is not reverent. How do you know? Just because you do not "feel it" means it is null and void for everyone else? I agree that people can go overboard and get plain goofy...but please don't throw a blanket of judgment on everyone. And if young people can relate with it...that makes it automatically taboo? I am not young anymore, but I have seen how the older members make it clear to the younger that they are not welcome and if you don't do it "our" way then it is wrong. And church congregations made up of older members wonder where the younger people are after they have made it clear they really aren't wanted. If something is sinful and unBiblical then, yes, deal with it, but I'm afraid it's the "my way or the highway" attitude that is causing many churches to die of old age. (Again, I am past middle-age, so I am not young.) So they are to follow the older generation that sticks strictly to the same old 10 selections out of the hymnal?
I find your position a bit unspiritual and not fully supported by Scripture...in fact....contradicted by Scripture.
As far as the electronic church....it negates the need for personal ministry and makes the pastoral epistles and the Scriptures pertaining to church government and spiritual giftedness null and void.

 

[Wolftone]

I think there should be two types of church services. One should only have very worshipful music that reminds the congregation that God is holy and worthy of "high worship". There can then be another service of celebration where we celebrate what God has done for us using the hand clapping, fun kind of music.

I started to red your post with a 'here we go again with the funeral music' and you then excelled yourself!

I think that two separate services are the way to go. The morning service would be the main, quite and conservative worship and the evening one with guitars playing modern songs, clapping, raised hands etc.

Good thinking dude!

 

[busdriver72]

I started to red your post with a 'here we go again with the funeral music' and you then excelled yourself!

I think that two separate services are the way to go. The morning service would be the main, quite and conservative worship and the evening one with guitars playing modern songs, clapping, raised hands etc.

Good thinking dude!

I can see and understand the logic for this, but I also see another effect...it divides and separates the body of Christ. You would have two groups that would basically have little to do with each other.