N.T. Wright and the evangelical Protestant gospel message

[pshun2404]

What sort of person gets on here and writes posts that seem to assume that people aren't already reading the Bible first and foremost? We read the Bible AND read other books. As John Wesley practiced, we are men (and women) of one book and many books.

You are right I made an incorrect assumption as if by reading these books that one would then understand the Bible better...as if we need to view the Bible in light of these later commentators as opposed to the other way around. So you know what they say when one assumes...(guilty)...Hee Haw! Sorry...

Paul

 

[GraceSeeker]

Hey, it is so seldom that one gets an apology rather than an apologia on the internet any more. I'm impressed!!

 

[FireDragon76]

I went to an Episcopalian low Eucharist service in the evening today and the sermon was on Romans. Typical Roman Road stuff... "You're at war with God, and God is at war with you... and Jesus loves you because he's ended the war". He totally missed that the first couple of chapters of Romans are not a detailed systematic theology or an apologetic for God's wrath - they are a rhetorical device to set up the revelation of God's faithfulness and mercy. The war Paul sees is not so much with God and man, although it is there, as between Jew and Gentiles that are at war with each other because the Messianic Age had not yet arrived. That's Paul's underlying theme in alot of his epistles, the cosmopolitan nature of the Christian life in the Spirit that transcends the religious, ethnic, and sexual distinctions of the world (a message that would have resonated alot with middle-class Greeks familiar with the Stoic ethic which was common at the time). That is just as much a part of the "New Creation" for Paul as much as the forgiveness of individual sins.

I don't know where the priest got his theology training but he seems to gravitate towards that "stuck in the 4 Spiritual Laws" mindset. Alot of his sermons have that theme. It's a good thing that i don't go just for the sermons, but sermons like that seldom really make me feel connected with God and inspired to live Spirit-filled life. Usually I treat them as irrelevent or offensive at worst.

 

[elman]

I went to an Episcopalian low Eucharist service in the evening today and the sermon was on Romans. Typical Roman Road stuff... "You're at war with God, and God is at war with you... and Jesus loves you because he's ended the war". He totally missed that the first couple of chapters of Romans are not a detailed systematic theology or an apologetic for God's wrath - they are a rhetorical device to set up the revelation of God's faithfulness and mercy. The war Paul sees is not so much with God and man, although it is there, as between Jew and Gentiles that are at war with each other because the Messianic Age had not yet arrived. That's Paul's underlying theme in alot of his epistles, the cosmopolitan nature of the Christian life in the Spirit that transcends the religious, ethnic, and sexual distinctions of the world (a message that would have resonated alot with middle-class Greeks familiar with the Stoic ethic which was common at the time). That is just as much a part of the "New Creation" for Paul as much as the forgiveness of individual sins.

I don't know where the priest got his theology training but he seems to gravitate towards that "stuck in the 4 Spiritual Laws" mindset. Alot of his sermons have that theme. It's a good thing that i don't go just for the sermons, but sermons like that seldom really make me feel connected with God and inspired to live Spirit-filled life. Usually I treat them as irrelevent or offensive at worst.

I think the only war that ultimately matters is the battle within us to be loving to others or not. We fight this battle as long as we live. With the help of the Spirit we are ultimately victorious, if we do not grieve the Spirit by choosing the unloving path or failing to turn from the unloving path to the righteous one. We can experience the peace with God that passes understanding, but the battle must be endured as long as we have breath.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I think the only war that ultimately matters is the battle within us to be loving to others or not.

Wise counsel.

 

[Skala]

Wise counsel.

Be careful, to elman, loving others is the sum of the gospel. All you have to do to be saved, in his view, is simply be loving to others.

Nothing about faith alone in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, etc. Just love love love.

Love = justification, to elman.

 

[Arcoe]

Be careful, to elman, loving others is the sum of the gospel. All you have to do to be saved, in his view, is simply be loving to others.

Nothing about faith alone in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, etc. Just love love love.

Love = justification, to elman.

Why is love greater than faith? What good is faith without love? How are you child of God without love? How does faith without love alive? How can you separate faith and love? Everything you say you do through faith, everything you say faith does for you, can only be accomplished with love, including justification by faith.

1 Cor. 13 -
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

What can faith alone do for you?

 

[Skala]

What can faith alone do for you?

Faith alone can justify me before God, according to the Apostle Paul. Sounds pretty important to me.

 

[FireDragon76]

Faith alone can justify me before God, according to the Apostle Paul. Sounds pretty important to me.

Unless a person were genuinely becoming more loving, I'd tend to doubt that faith was real. Faith can't stand alone and be a saving faith. I think this is what James is talking about in his Epistle, there is a kind of dead faith that is worthless, just as there is a kind of religion that is worthless. Love is what marks out a true believer in Christ from the world- someone with faith in Christ that is salvific has moved beyond the narrow self-interest and fearfulness, the "curvature into the self".

 

[Arcoe]

Faith alone can justify me before God, according to the Apostle Paul. Sounds pretty important to me.

Faith without love profits you nothing.

Oh, these are Paul's words also.

 

[Johnnz]

Why all this doctrinal hair splitting over what is most important. A Christian is living out the indwelling life of Christ, in reliance and relationship with Him. That is a multi faceted reality of life, truth, character, fruit, love, obedience, faith and empowerment. Let our lives express the reality of what we believe.

John
NZ

 

[GraceSeeker]

Faith alone can justify me before God, according to the Apostle Paul. Sounds pretty important to me.

In terms of the exact phrase "faith alone", it is only used once in the entire Bible. Are you familiar with it?


"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." (James 2:24, NIV)

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24, Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament)

 

[GraceSeeker]

I think the only war that ultimately matters is the battle within us to be loving to others or not.

Wise counsel.

Be careful, to elman, loving others is the sum of the gospel. All you have to do to be saved, in his view, is simply be loving to others.

Nothing about faith alone in Jesus Christ and his atoning work, etc. Just love love love.

Love = justification, to elman.

Well, love does seem to be even more important than faith or hope, or at least Paul thought so: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love" (1 Corinthians 13:13).

And when Jesus was leaving his disciple instructions on how to live after he was gone, he too focused on just one thing: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:34-35).



But for balance sake, I do think that we probably need more than just love in the Christian life. Here's a story to that effect:

While teaching a Bible college class, Donald Miller conducted an interesting experiment. He told students he was going to leave out one important truth and that they should try to detect it. Miller then talked about people’s sinfulness and our need to repent; he read Scripture like Ephesians 2:8-9 and the Roman Road and reflected on stories like Joshua choosing to follow God; he discussed the reward awaiting us in heaven and the importance of fleeing from the wrath to come.

Not one of the 45 students realized their professor had left out Jesus. “I had said nothing about his love, his life and incarnation, his death or his resurrection,” Miller says. “I had said nothing about our need to ... have his righteousness cover us.”

Miller, author of Blue Like Jazz, says he could probably conduct the same experiment from Christian church pulpits, and few people would notice or be upset. Faith should be a relationship, not a formula, he argues, and it’s hard to have a relationship when you leave out Jesus.

 

[Johnnz]

The issue in Paul's day was Torah keeping (works), or the new life in Christ that came by grace through believing in Jesus. It was not the 'which comes first, faith or grace' or 'faith and/or works'. Genuine life in Christ could only result in new behaviours and lifestyle. Believing in Jesus and knowing Him was the crucial issue.

John
NZ