Questions for Synergists

[bling]

The elect will all turn. The non-elect will never turn. You're the one teaching that God is trying to save the non-elect.

Again they are elect because they did turn from the God of the future’s perspective (who is also the God of out past) and not because they “were” the elect.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you saying the future isn't set? Your Open Theism is becoming more clear.

I do feel it is “set” from the God of our future’s perspective since it is all “history” to him, but our free will moral choices were “set” by the free will moral choices we made as far as God is concerned.

So God does know the future? Why do you keep changing your position? If God knows the future, nothing but what God knows can come to pass. You're arguing as though the future is undetermined.

As far as we are concerned our future is undetermined, but as far as God way off in man’s future it is all history “set” for Him, but that future God is the same God of our past. Time is extremely relative as far as God is concerned, but if you limit God to man’s time frame there is a problem of man having free will or God “knowing” the future. The Open Theism limit God to our time frame, so do you limit God to our time frame?

 

[shturt678]

Judas was one of the "elect," and at what point he lost his "election," i.e., we can also lose our "election," only Jesus knew and presently knows.

 

[guuila]

Judas was never saved to begin with. Jesus made it clear about His statement about Judas, "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. - John 6:64

Judas did not believe, and therefore was never saved. He continued in sin and unbelief. He was merely chosen to be an apostle, but was not chosen unto salvation. The other 11 apostles were chosen unto salvation.

+1

 

[guuila]

False claim. I was responding to your statement: "Another synergist forgetting that 'elect' is a biblical term.... LOL!!!!!!!!!!" When will you ever learn what a red herring is?

Oz

Red herring.

 

[janxharris]

God knows the ends from the beginnings. He knows who will or won't be saved by their own hearts, which is what makes us "elect" or not.

Yes, but that is the Arminian position. Calvinism has it that God determined in advance.

 

[Metal Minister]

Judas was one of the "elect," and at what point he lost his "election," i.e., we can also lose our "election," only Jesus knew and presently knows.

It's safe to say Judas never had salvation. Our works and deeds are the outward sign of our salvation state. What was Judas's outward deed? To betray the saviour for a pittance. Jesus knew when He told Judas to go what was on his heart. He also knew that Judas would betray Him when He made him an apostle. Why did He make him an apostle? Because for the arrest to work, OT would've taken someone who was intimately familiar with Jesus's plans. He would have to be betrayed. I'm sure we can all agree that no true Christian would betray our Lord Jesus right?

 

[janxharris]

Unfortunately there are some folks around here who believe if God gives grace to one person, he's obligated to give grace to everyone or he's unjust. In their eyes, if God is not an equal-opportunity God, they don't want anything to do with him.

Except that it doesn't work like that.

Would you like to assure any casual readers of these posts, who might be interested in Christianity, that they definitely do have a real chance at salvation and that it is not possible that God may have predetermined they would never believe?

I make that assertion. Do you?

 

[Metal Minister]

Except that it doesn't work like that.

Would you like to assure any casual readers of these posts, who might be interested in Christianity, that they definitely do have a real chance at salvation and that it is not possible that God may have predetermined they would never believe?

I make that assertion. Do you?

If you believe, it was predetermined, you are part of the elect. That's all you need say.

 

[janxharris]

Start with a belief in human autonomy. Add scripture warning about falling away. This will make the Bible seem to say that Christians can fall away. Of course, if you start with a presumption about divine sovereignty, warnings about falling away become tools created by God which the Holy Spirit uses to quicken us to the seriousness of the need to persevere, thereby preventing us from falling away.

God's purpose in inspiring these texts was clearly to try to prevent apostasy.

I thought that God predetermined every event? Every thought and desire?

 

[guuila]

Except that it doesn't work like that.

Would you like to assure any casual readers of these posts, who might be interested in Christianity, that they definitely do have a real chance at salvation and that it is not possible that God may have predetermined they would never believe?

I make that assertion. Do you?

Good grief. You still don't get it. I'm not trying to be rude. I mean this as humbly as I can, but I'm afraid you're just not capable of understanding what I've been trying to explain to you. One final attempt: Let's say we have a casual reader named Bob. God knows with infallible perfect knowledge that Bob will never believe. Do you want to tell Bob he currently has a real chance of being saved?

 

[janxharris]

It's safe to say Judas never had salvation. Our works and deeds are the outward sign of our salvation state. What was Judas's outward deed? To betray the saviour for a pittance. Jesus knew when He told Judas to go what was on his heart. He also knew that Judas would betray Him when He made him an apostle. Why did He make him an apostle? Because for the arrest to work, OT would've taken someone who was intimately familiar with Jesus's plans. He would have to be betrayed. I'm sure we can all agree that no true Christian would betray our Lord Jesus right?

Matthew 10:1-8
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,a drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

 

[janxharris]

If you believe, it was predetermined, you are part of the elect. That's all you need say.

I'll take that as a no.

 

[Metal Minister]

Matthew 10:1-8
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,a drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

*ahem*

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I'm pretty sure Judas falls into this category. Just sayin...

 

[janxharris]

Good grief. You still don't get it. I'm not trying to be rude. I mean this as humbly as I can, but I'm afraid you're just not capable of understanding what I've been trying to explain to you. One final attempt: Let's say we have a casual reader named Bob. God knows with infallible perfect knowledge that Bob will never believe. Do you want to tell Bob he currently has a real chance of being saved?

Of course.

'Bob, you have a real chance at being saved. All you need to do is put your faith in Christ. Don't worry Bob, it is not the case that God decided in advance that you would not believe. By the way, God does know what you will do, for He knows all things, but that is nothing to worry about - your free will is intact.'

Can we now have your assurance to Bob please griff?

 

[janxharris]

*ahem*

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

I'm pretty sure Judas falls into this category. Just sayin...

My point was that Judas was not treated any differently to the eleven.

 

[Metal Minister]

I'll take that as a no.

It's not a matter of chance, its a matter of Grace. Grace we cannot demand access to, but must be freely given from God's will.

 

[Metal Minister]

Of course.

'Bob, you have a real chance at being saved. All you need to do is put your faith in Christ. Don't worry Bob, it is not the case that God decided in advance that you would not believe. By the way, God does know what you will do, for He knows all things, but that is nothing to worry about - your free will is intact.'

Can we now have your assurance to Bob please griff?

That is false assurance...

 

[Metal Minister]

My point was that Judas was not treated any differently to the eleven.

And? It proves my point. Jesus knew he'd betray Him, yet didn't treat him differently. He knew it would not change anything, could not change anything. Did you think Jesus would drop hints that He knew? Oh, wait. He did, and he betrayed Jesus anyway...

 

[janxharris]

That is false assurance...

Okay, since you give no assurance and you agree with Jesus "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven" (Mat. 7:21)...well, I will let you draw your own conclusions...

EDIT: I do not imply that you are not a true believer. No offence is/was intended.

It is possible that a Calvinist might not truly be saved (even though they think they are). They might be one of the non-elect; one of those that they could not give assurance to (as has been discussed).

 

[Epiphoskei]

I thought that God predetermined every event? Every thought and desire?

I am growing uncertain whether you are simply cannot recognize that your priors are mere idioms of your own philosophy which can't be used to analyze the internal consistency of other philosophies, or whether you are speaking disingenuously.

Stop this. You are not going to draw us into defending a mongrel ideology that's already more than half Arminian as if it were Reformed predestinarianism.