An examination of the claim that God decreed Adam's fall

Hammster

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Stopping it would have meant overriding free will I guess.

He couldn't have stopped Satan? Or would that have violated Satan's precious free will, too?
 
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Hammster

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bottomofsandal

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God does foreknow, yes. God created angels with a free will.

Why do you think the fall was part of his purpose? I would think that God would have been very pleased if Adam and Eve had continued to be obedient. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

God told Adam and Eve to not eat of a certain tree. They had 1 command to obey and they could not obey and honor God with this little assignment. Our frailty, our inability establishes and accentuates God's power and holiness.


Without the fall, there would be no need for forgiveness, mercy, or grace. Adam and Eve would have lived forever in the type of relationship that they had with God. It was good to be sure, but is not our communion and fellowship with God better ? Do we not know God in a manner which Adam and Eve never could ?


Conclusion: the fall accomplished something that otherwise would not have happened, the fall made things better for humanity, the fall allowed the inhabitants of Heaven to see attributes of God that previously had been unknown and therefore God was GLORIFIED !!!:bow:
 
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gmm4j

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God told Adam and Eve to not eat of a certain tree. They had 1 command to obey and they could not obey and honor God with this little assignment. Our frailty, our inability establishes and accentuates God's power and holiness.


Without the fall, there would be no need for forgiveness, mercy, or grace. Adam and Eve would have lived forever in the type of relationship that they had with God. It was good to be sure, but is not our communion and fellowship with God better ? Do we not know God in a manner which Adam and Eve never could ?


Conclusion: the fall accomplished something that otherwise would not have happened, the fall made things better for humanity, the fall allowed the inhabitants of Heaven to see attributes of God that previously had been unknown and therefore God was GLORIFIED !!!:bow:


Conclusion: ...the fall made things better for humanity, the fall allowed the inhabitants of Heaven to see attributes of God that previously had been unknown and therefore God was GLORIFIED !!!:bow:

Wow. Sin made things better for humanity? God needs sin to reveal His glory? Wow.
 
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janxharris

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"3. How is it possible for God to DECREE that men SHOULD commit certain sins, hold them RESPONSIBLE in the committal of them, and adjudge them GUILTY because they committed them?

Let us now consider the extreme case of Judas. We hold that it is clear from Scripture that God decreed from all eternity that Judas should betray the Lord Jesus. If anyone should challenge this statement we refer him to the prophecy of Zechariah through whom God declared that His Son should be sold for "thirty pieces of silver" (Zech. 11:12). As we have said in earlier pages, in prophecy God makes known what will be, and in making known what will be He is but revealing to us what He has ordained shall be. That Judas was the one through whom the prophecy of Zechariah was fulfilled needs not to be argued. But now the question we have to face is, Was Judas a responsible agent in fulfilling this decree of God? We reply that he was. Responsibility attaches mainly to the motive and intention of the one committing the act. This is recognized on every hand. Human law distinguishes between a blow inflicted by accident (without evil design) and a blow delivered with 'malice aforethought.' Apply then this same principle to the case of Judas. What was the design of his heart when he bargained with the priests? Manifestly he had no conscious desire to fulfill any decree of God, though unknown to himself he was actually doing so. On the contrary, his intention was evil only, and therefore, though God had decreed and directed his act, nevertheless his own evil intention rendered him justly guilty as he afterwards acknowledged himself-"I have betrayed innocent blood." It was the same with the Crucifixion of Christ. Scripture plainly declares that He was "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23), and that though "the kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ" yet, notwithstanding it was but "for to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy counsel determined before to be done" (Acts 4:26, 28); which verses teach very much more than a bare permission by God, declaring, as they do, that the Crucifixion and all its details had been decreed by God. Yet, nevertheless, it was by "wicked hands," not merely "human hands" that our Lord was "crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23). "Wicked" because the intention of His crucifiers was only evil.

But it might be objected that if God decreed that Judas should betray Christ, and that the Jews and Gentiles should crucify Him they could not do otherwise, and therefore, they were not responsible for their intentions. The answer is, God had decreed that they should perform the acts they did, but in the actual perpetration of these deeds they were justly guilty because their own purposes in the doing of them was evil only. Let it be emphatically said that God does not produce the sinful dispositions of any of His creatures, though He does restrain and direct them to the accomplishing of His own purposes. Hence He is neither the Author nor the Approver of sin. This distinction was expressed thus by Augustine: "That men sin proceeds from themselves; that in sinning they perform this or that action, is from the power of God who divideth the darkness according to His pleasure." Thus it is written, "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). What we would here insist upon is, that God's decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men but the fore-determined and prescribed boundings and directings of men's sinful acts. In connection with the betrayal of Christ God did not decree that He should be sold by one of His creatures and then take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart and thus force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. No; not so do the Scriptures represent it. Instead, God decreed the act and selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not make him evil in order that he should perform the deed; on the contrary, the betrayer was a "devil" at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve (John 6:70), and in the exercise and manifestation of his own deviltry God simply directed his actions, actions which were perfectly agreeable to his own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked intentions. Thus it was with the Crucifixion." A.W. Pink from "The Sovereignty of God Chapter 8

I understand this does not apply to the exception of Adam, but it does help explain his descendants.

Thanks for this Apologetic Warrior. Very interesting.

How does the word 'foreordination' remain unblunted in its meaning if there is a consideration of the deeds of men in what is decreed? If you edge towards the idea of foreknowing then you are approaching the Arminian position. In effect, foreordaining becomes post-ordaining.

We speak of predestination as God's eternal decree by which He compacted with Himself what He willed to become of each man. For not all are created in equal condition; rather, some are foreordained to eternal, others to eternal damnation. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or death. (J. Calvin, Institutes, xxi, 5)

John Calvin makes no reference here to a consideration of the man himself. God compacted with Himself, says Mr. Calvin.
 
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janxharris

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Before we get to Adam, let's read some more from Pink:

""Predestination we call the decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny: but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestinated either to life or to death"-from John Calvin's "Institutes" (1536 A. D.) Book III, Chapter XXI entitled "Eternal Election, or God's Predestination of Some to Salvation and of Others to Destruction."

We ask our readers to mark well the above language. A perusal of it should show that what the present writer has advanced in this chapter is not "hyper-Calvinism" but real Calvinism, pure and simple. Our purpose in making this remark is to show that those who, not acquainted with Calvin's writings, in their ignorance condemn as ultra-Calvinism that which is simply a reiteration of what Calvin himself taught-a reiteration because that prince of theologians as well as his humble debtor have both found this doctrine in the Word of God itself.

Martin Luther in his most excellent work "De Servo Arbitrio" (Free Will a Slave), wrote: "All things whatsoever arise from, and depend upon, the Divine appointments, whereby it was preordained who should receive the Word of Life, and who should disbelieve it, who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them, who should be justified and who should be condemned. This is the very truth which razes the doctrine of freewill from its foundations, to wit, that God's eternal love of some men and hatred of others is immutable and cannot be reversed."

It is astonishing that Luther held such views.

So, as an example (correct me if I am wrong), God foreordained Mr. A to eternal life, but Mr. B to eternal damnation. God did so without any consideration of Mr. A and Mr. B, that is, without consideration of how they would behave as people (good or bad). Mr. A was a ruthless, greedy man and drank to excess, but because God had foreordained that he would receive eternal life, God effected a complete turn around in his life. Mr. B was greedy and drank too (though he did do a lot of work for the poor) and because God had foreordained damnation, he remained a non-Christian.

John Fox, whose Book of Martyrs was once the best known work in the English language (alas that is not so today, when Roman Catholicism is sweeping upon us like a great destructive tidal wave!), wrote: "Predestination is the eternal decreement of God, purposed before in Himself, what should befall all men, either to salvation, or damnation."

Though I don't agree with Roman Catholicism, I find Calvinism THE greatest threat to the Gospel.

"Reprobation is before the person cometh into the world, or hath done good or evil. This is evidenced by Romans 9:11. Here you find twain in their mother's womb, and both receiving their destiny, not only before they had-done good or evil, but before they were in a capacity to do it, they being yet unborn-their destiny, I say, the one unto, the other not unto the blessing of eternal life; the one elect, the other reprobate; the one chosen, the other refused." In his "Sighs from Hell," John Bunyan also wrote: "They that do continue to reject and slight the Word of God are such, for the most part, as are ordained to be damned."

It remains shocking that the author of Pilgrims Progress should write such this.

Romans 9 is about the nation of Edom (Malachi 1, Genesis 25:23).

Commenting upon Romans 9:22, "What is God willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," Jonathan Edwards (Vol. 4, p. 306 - 1743 A.D.) says, "How awful doth the majesty of God appear in the dreadfulness of His anger! This we may learn to be one end of the damnation of the wicked."

Not true. Romans 9 has God electing those whom He will work through. The electing is not unto salvation.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Not true. Romans 9 has God electing those whom He will work through. The electing is not unto salvation.

That's flatly impossible. Verse 8 speaks of God's promise selecting who will be considered Abraham's offspring, which is a salvific term. Verse 22 speaks of those whom you would have us believe God is merely choosing not to work through being "prepared for destruction," which is clear-cut damnation. And moreover,

I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one

And

In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.

And
Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
 
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janxharris

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That's flatly impossible. Verse 8 speaks of God's promise selecting who will be considered Abraham's offspring, which is a salvific term. Verse 22 speaks of those whom you would have us believe God is merely choosing not to work through being "prepared for destruction," which is clear-cut damnation.

If it is a salvific term, why weren't all saved? Are you suggesting Ishmael and all of his offspring were damned? Ishmael was blessed.

No, 'prepared for destruction' is not clear-cut damnation. Damnation comes to those that willfully reject God.

Your interpretation of these scriptures throws up the awful prospect of God unconditionally damning and you have said that God foreordains everything.


And moreover,

I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one

And

In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.

And
Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

What of these scriptures?
 
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Iosias

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It has been claimed that God decreed the fall of Adam, so I would like to examine the nature of this decree and its relation to Adam and his will.

What foreknowledge, if any, of what He (God) was about to create determined the nature of the decree?
Was the decree made without regard to anything of Adam?
Was eternal obedience a real possibility for Adam?

Since Adam didn't exist, these questions are all a bit pointless :wave:
 
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Clare73

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Wow. Sin made things better for humanity? God needs sin to reveal His glory? Wow.
You got a better way to glorify his mercy?

You got a better way to glorify his justice (Ro 9:22)?
 
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Iosias

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Luke 3:38

Was Luke wrong?

Was 'Luke' living at the time Adam supposedly lived, or was he (whoever 'he' was) reflecting the beliefs of those alive during the late apostolic period? Just because 'Luke' believed Adam existed, does not mean Adam existed.
 
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bottomofsandal

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Wow. Sin made things better for humanity? God needs sin to reveal His glory? Wow.
WOW is right ! Look at the scene in Heaven shown in Revelation 5 where myriads of voices sing praise: the 24 elders, angels, and EVERY creature. There are no dissenters crying foul or maligning the glorifying work of God that God has performed on the earth to magnify His Name, are there ?


God doesn't need to do anything, and God certainly does not require our approval to exercise His dominion in the universe that He created. It is as if man takes umbrage and is offended by the manner in which God chooses to govern. God does what is according to His goodwill and pleasure. There is no vote, no discussion, no consensus. Just God doing what pleases Himself. God is not responsible to explain or pacify the capricious whimsy of man.


Either God had a hand in the fall or someone or something else did. An open-theist would say God was surprised and blindsided, and reacted to the fall of man because God lacks exhautive definitive foreknowledge (EDF). God could not know what was yet to happen because it had not yet happened and therefore was unknowable to God. Furthermore, man had not exercised his "say-so" (a la Greg Boyd) and the fall could not happen without man's input.


What is contradictory about God ordaining or allowing the fall ?

What attribute or characteristic does God violate ?
 
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janxharris

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Was 'Luke' living at the time Adam supposedly lived, or was he (whoever 'he' was) reflecting the beliefs of those alive during the late apostolic period? Just because 'Luke' believed Adam existed, does not mean Adam existed.

Is this true:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,?

And this:

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.?

Do say why you think Adam did not exist.
 
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Hammster

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Was 'Luke' living at the time Adam supposedly lived, or was he (whoever 'he' was) reflecting the beliefs of those alive during the late apostolic period? Just because 'Luke' believed Adam existed, does not mean Adam existed.

Good grief. :doh:
 
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Iosias

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