Music: If it feels good, do it!

[Epecho]

My husband is the worship director and leader at our Baptist church. And I can tell you we do hymns with modern arrangements. And we have some of the most authentic worship I have ever been apart of. People at our church cry out they yell they sing they don't care how they look they just worship. And that is what God cares about. He doesn't care about the genre or style of music. Scripture tells us to make a joyful noise. Us worshipping God with all our heart is joy enough for God. In my opinion the whole worship style debate is just one more stupid thing the devil uses to divide us and sadly it works.

What makes it "authentic"?

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind," - Jeremiah 17:9

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death." - Proverbs 14:12

 

[Hammster]

Still waiting a response.

Who was under Mosaic Law? Jews
What references do you keep on referring to in OT for authorization for instrumental music in worship to God? Jewish


Hammster, you basically keep repeating yourself after I have shown that your arguments are not valid in light of Bible authority. Please refer to my last reply to you. It was at: 29th April 2013 10:25 PM.
Little children understand this principle. Ever play "Simon Says"? What happens if you raise your hand when Simon doesn't say?


In order to prove your point you would have to show me that what the Bible does say doesn't matter.

In the OT, would you be sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship?

 

[Epecho]

Still waiting a response.
In the OT, would you be sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship?"

Hammster,
How is this a relevant question in regards to Christian (New Covenant) worship?

1. The Old Testament is not the pattern for the church today. The death of Christ did away with the Old Testament system.

   14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." - Colossians 2:14

2. Paul condemned the religious observance of Mosaic practices in the New Testament church, because they were only a “shadow” of better things to come

   16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God." - Colossians 2:16-19

We can see by the passages below that authority in religious matters belongs to Christ.

17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father." - Colossians 3:17

9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." - 2 John 9

We have a biblical pattern for New Covenant worship.

God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” - John 4:24

1. God is the focus of worship
2. It cannot be sheer ritual. It must involve your innermost being.
3. It must be "in truth" which means it must match divine authority.

 

[Hammster]

And STILL waiting a response. Some folks like answering questions that aren't asked.

Who was under Mosaic Law? Jews
What references do you keep on referring to in OT for authorization for instrumental music in worship to God? Jewish


Hammster, you basically keep repeating yourself after I have shown that your arguments are not valid in light of Bible authority. Please refer to my last reply to you. It was at: 29th April 2013 10:25 PM.
Little children understand this principle. Ever play "Simon Says"? What happens if you raise your hand when Simon doesn't say?


In order to prove your point you would have to show me that what the Bible does say doesn't matter.

In the OT, would you be sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship?

 

[Epecho]

And STILL waiting a response. Some folks like answering questions that aren't asked.

In the OT, would you be sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship?

It depended on who you were and when it was.

 

[Hammster]

It depended on who you were and when it was.

And where do you find the distinction?

 

[Epecho]

And where do you find the distinction?

Let's take a look at the first occurance of musical instruments in tabernacle worship in the Old Testament. This is when God gave instruction to Moses on Mount Sinai about how to worship.

1 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Make two silver trumpets for yourself; you shall make them of hammered work; you shall use them for calling the congregation and for directing the movement of the camps.....

8The sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow the trumpets; and these shall be to you as an ordinance forever throughout your generations....

10 Also in the day of your gladness, in your appointed feasts, and at the beginning of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be a memorial for you before your God: I am the Lord your God.” - Numbers 10:1,2,8,10 (emp. mine)

• Notice God does not leave it up to the people as to how to use instruments.

1. There must be two trumpets of silver.
2. There are times when both can be sounded and times when one can be sounded.
3. Only priests can blow the trumpets (verse 8)

About 400 years after the beginning of tabernacle worship David introduced more instruments. We are told why in 2 Chronicles when Hezekiah attempted to purify the temple and restore true worship to Israel.

25 And he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with stringed instruments, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad the king’s seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for thus was the commandment of the Lord by His prophets. 26 The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. 27 Then Hezekiah commanded them to offer the burnt offering on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the Lord also began, with the trumpets and with the instruments of David king of Israel." - 2 Chronicles 25-27 (emp. mine)

• Some observations:

1. The instruments used were only those authorized by David and Moses. The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. - 2 Chronicles 29:26
2. Hezekiah didn't feel he had the right to change temple worship from what it was originally.

Let's take a look at a few other restorations of worship in the Old Testament,

• And the singers, the sons of Asaph, were in their places, according to the command of David, Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun the king’s seer. - 2 Chronicles 35:15
• When the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, the priests stood in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the Lord, according to the ordinance of David king of Israel. - Ezra 3:10
• and some of the priests’ sons with trumpets—Zechariah the son of Jonathan, the son of Shemaiah, the son of Mattaniah, the son of Michaiah, the son of Zaccur, the son of Asaph, 36 and his brethren, Shemaiah, Azarel, Milalai, Gilalai, Maai, Nethanel, Judah, and Hanani, with the musical instruments of David the man of God. - Nehemiah 12:35-36

(all bold emphasize is mine)

 

[Hammster]

Let's take a look at the first occurance of musical instruments in tabernacle worship in the Old Testament. This is when God gave instruction to Moses on Mount Sinai about how to worship.

• Notice God does not leave it up to the people as to how to use instruments.

1. There must be two trumpets of silver.
2. There are times when both can be sounded and times when one can be sounded.
3. Only priests can blow the trumpets (verse 8)

About 400 years after the beginning of tabernacle worship David introduced more instruments. We are told why in 2 Chronicles when Hezekiah attempted to purify the temple and restore true worship to Israel.

This has nothing to do with the context of our discussion.

• Some observations:

1. The instruments used were only those authorized by David and Moses. The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. - 2 Chronicles 29:26
2. Hezekiah didn't feel he had the right to change temple worship from what it was originally.

1. Nothing in the text supports this assertion.

Let's take a look at a few other restorations of worship in the Old Testament,

• And the singers, the sons of Asaph, were in their places, according to the command of David, Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun the king’s seer. - 2 Chronicles 35:15
• When the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, the priests stood in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the Lord, according to the ordinance of David king of Israel. - Ezra 3:10
• and some of the priests’ sons with trumpets—Zechariah the son of Jonathan, the son of Shemaiah, the son of Mattaniah, the son of Michaiah, the son of Zaccur, the son of Asaph, 36 and his brethren, Shemaiah, Azarel, Milalai, Gilalai, Maai, Nethanel, Judah, and Hanani, with the musical instruments of David the man of God. - Nehemiah 12:35-36

(all bold emphasize is mine)

So, nothing about sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship. It seems that it was up to those leading worship. Pretty much as I thought.

 

[Epecho]

This has nothing to do with the context of our discussion.
Nothing in the text supports this assertion.


So, nothing about sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship. It seems that it was up to those leading worship. Pretty much as I thought.

How did you come up with your conclusion?

Originally Posted by Epecho

"It depended on who you were and when it was."

Originally Posted by Hammster

"And where do you find the distinction?"

Refer back to my last post, 5th May 2013 04:10 PM. I included scripture with my reply, which may clear things up for any of you reading this who have not been involved or reading this discussion.

1. Who was commanded to use instruments in the Old Testament?
2. Would it be a sin for them to not use the instruments as commanded?

Sorry, I thought it went without saying that it is sin to disobey God. It seems that you have a different viewpoint though. Please explain.


"8 Then Moses said to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi: 9 Is it a small thing to you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the work of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to serve them; 10 and that He has brought you near to Himself, you and all your brethren, the sons of Levi, with you?" - Numbers 16:8-10

"

 

[Hammster]

How did you come up with your conclusion?

Simple. While there's times when certain instruments were used during worship, there was no instruction to say what instruments were to be used and when.

Refer back to my last post, 5th May 2013 04:10 PM. I included scripture with my reply, which may clear things up for any of you reading this who have not been involved or reading this discussion.

1. Who was commanded to use instruments in the Old Testament?
2. Would it be a sin for them to not use the instruments as commanded?

Sorry, I thought it went without saying that it is sin to disobey God. It seems that you have a different viewpoint though. Please explain.

Yes, you've used a lot of scripture. But you used a lot of conjecture, as well. Finding examples of when instruments were used, and why, falls short of saying that God commanded certain instruments be used at certain times.

"8 Then Moses said to Korah, “Hear now, you sons of Levi: 9 Is it a small thing to you that the God of Israel has separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to Himself, to do the work of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to serve them; 10 and that He has brought you near to Himself, you and all your brethren, the sons of Levi, with you?" - Numbers 16:8-10

"

Praise the Lord ! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord ! (Psalms 150:1-6 NASB)

Here is Psalm 150. It would be a stretch to say that it is a prescription for which instruments are to be used in worship, and when. It's clear, at face value, that the writer wanted to convey that we are to praise God with instruments and dance, and voice. I would say that this isn't an all inclusive list, not is it a requirement to always use each instrument. The writer is just exuberant about worship, as he should be.

The point in all of this is to show that there's no teaching in scripture that says OT worship without instruments is sinning. It's not there. Likewise, there's no teaching in the NT that says that instruments are not to be used in worship.

I appreciate my brother's diligence to try to be pleasing to God in worship. It's commendable, and I will not fault them for that. However, there has yet to be shown any clear cut evidence from scripture that says instruments should not be used in NT worship. In fact, I would say that there is evidence that they are allowed since Paul, a Jew, said to sing Psalms. And the singing of psalms clearly allowed for the use of instruments.

 

[Bella Vita]

What makes it "authentic"?

Because people really worship at our church. You can feel the holy spirit in the room. People don't just stand there all awkward like they do at some churches. They sing they clap they yell out to God. They don't care of they can;t sing or if they sound like a dying cat they worship. And that is what worship should be about. It's not about sounding good or making a show for others its for you to connect with God.

My comment was not to say other types of worship are less authentic. I was speaking on my church and our body.

 

[98cwitr]

Because people really worship at our church. You can feel the holy spirit in the room. People don't just stand there all awkward like they do at some churches. They sing they clap they yell out to God. They don't care of they can;t sing or if they sound like a dying cat they worship. And that is what worship should be about. It's not about sounding good or making a show for others its for you to connect with God.

My comment was not to say other types of worship are less authentic. I was speaking on my church and our body.

Definitely like churches like yours

 

[McMatt]

It saddens me when people take religious scripture out of context and turn it into fundamentalist law. "Oh praise ye lord for I am a zealot who believes that god imbues people with amazing musical abilities, but they shall not in turn praise me with it. Damn them if they do" - the person who posted this

 

[korvus]

I don't think there are much Churches that I know of that have music that strives for the passions of men that much.
Even though the guitar, bass and drum have token the place of the organ, the music still doesn't sound like music people would want to listen to for pure pleasure of it.

Though of course there's a lot of music in churches that sound meant to be enjoyed in itself, but if the church must be fully devoid of things that pleasure us as humans, then why do churches traditionally look beautiful? What is inherently 'holy' about the intricate pleasing designs given to the great cathedrals, apart from some stain-glass windows and the like?