Vegetarians and Vegans

[ChirpChirp]

It's a bit of an odd question: what do vegetarians and vegans think of Lent? I know I definitely feel the sacrifice, but if someone is already living that lifestyle, how does it work?

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

It's not just about food.

 

[ChirpChirp]

It's not just about food.

I know it's not just about food, but the reason we do it is to self-sacrifice and instead of focusing on worldly pleasure, to focus on prayer and contemplation . So I was just wondering, if you already lead that lifestyle out of personal choices, how does it affect you during Lent? If it affects you at all? Do you find an alternate sacrifice to make during this period?

 

[Kristos]

I find fasting from wine & oil to be the most difficult, which would apply to vegans too. Along with added prayer and almsgiving - it seems like a good Lent.

 

[ChirpChirp]

The oil bit is actually new to me! The way I've always observed fasting is by giving up all animal produce and alcohol (though I must admit that I don't stick to the alcohol very well, because I'm only an occasional drinker to begin with and it's never seemed anything more than old grape juice to me lol)

 

[Cappadocious]

Losing olive oil hurts!

 

[ChirpChirp]

What's the reason for giving up oil?

 

[Cappadocious]

One explanation: Olives and wine grapes are pressed for the vitae, the fragrant, concentrated and living components which allow wine to ferment greatly and produce gladness in the heart, and oil to do a great many things, like light a lamp, absorb flavors, tend wounds.

They symbolize the Resurrection in that, from the press of death, flows greater life.

We fast from them so that on Resurrection feasts (Pascha being the chief among them), we remember these things.

 

[27B6]

...

 

[rusmeister]

One thing you might run up against is that in Orthodoxy, one can be a vegetarian out of personal taste and preference, but not in principle (ie, you can't teach or hold that it is wrong to either kill animals for food or consume animal products.)

 

[AureateDawn]

One thing you might run up against is that in Orthodoxy, one can be a vegetarian out of personal taste and preference, but not in principle (ie, you can't teach or hold that it is wrong to either kill animals for food or consume animal products.)

I think you can hold that principle, and not just a matter of personal taste. Sinful and wrong aren't necessarily the same thing. It may not be sinful to eat meat, but given the rapid evolution of the world and population, resources, etc. it is certainly wrong to consume animal products if it is viable for you to not do so.

 

[Cappadocious]

it is certainly wrong to consume animal products if it is viable for you to not do so.

As I understand it:

One could argue that American livestock practices are abhorrent and, for that reason and not for uncleanliness, it is unethical to eat our meat products. Or one could choose not to eat meat because they believe it to be cruel or unnecessary in our age.

What one cannot hold: that meat is unclean, or makes one unclean through consumption, and that those believers who do not refrain shall be condemned for it. Which is believed by Jews and Muslims re: certain meats, and at certain times; by Buddhists for certain levels of advancement; certain of those in Hinduism; or Jains; and probably Manicheans. And for many other traditions.

The reason why it is important to maintain this distinction is because some anti-material traditions actually believe that animals, or certain animals, are vile and unclean. They do not fear harming the animal, they only fear defiling themselves.

"As for those presbyters or deacons who are in the clergy and who abstain from meat, it has seemed right for them to touch and taste the meat and then, if they so wish, to refrain from eating it; but if they are unwilling to eat even vegetables that have been cooked with meat, and refuse to submit to the Canon, let them be dismissed from the orders."

-Canon 14, Synod of Ancyra

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think they are just more strict in their vegetarianism. I know some monastics eat less then they normally would, and they are vegetarian.

 

[ikonographics]

Losing olive oil hurts!

Here in Greece "no oil" means "NO oil" not just no olive oil.

 

[ikonographics]

.

 

[rusmeister]

I think you can hold that principle, and not just a matter of personal taste. Sinful and wrong aren't necessarily the same thing. It may not be sinful to eat meat, but given the rapid evolution of the world and population, resources, etc. it is certainly wrong to consume animal products if it is viable for you to not do so.

Well, that thought is wrong.
And what Cappadocious said.

It is certainly NOT wrong to consume animal products, and the Church specifically blesses their consumption at non-fasting (feast) times.
The father of the prodigal son (a parable spoken by... Jesus) does NOT call for the cutting down of their best corn as the chief focus of the celebratory feast.
It is actually sin to judge those who DO consume animal products, to teach that it is wrong. If I thought it might really help someone close to me, I might refrain (for a time) from animal products, but only until they "grow up".

I look forward to bacon next week...

 

[AureateDawn]

Well, that thought is wrong.
And what Cappadocious said.

It is certainly NOT wrong to consume animal products, and the Church specifically blesses their consumption at non-fasting (feast) times.
The father of the prodigal son (a parable spoken by... Jesus) does NOT call for the cutting down of their best corn as the chief focus of the celebratory feast.
It is actually sin to judge those who DO consume animal products, to teach that it is wrong. If I thought it might really help someone close to me, I might refrain (for a time) from animal products, but only until they "grow up".

I look forward to bacon next week...

Again, I feel like you're confusing morally wrong with either "sinful" or some other term. Sure, bless meat. Celebrate Christ is risen! It is all very good, and I have no qualm with it. Eat meat and be a part of the Church and I will not judge you. I feel like you're missing how drastically life and the world have changed. Within 200 or so years our numbers increased by 6 billion, power has changed, resources and their acquirement have changed, etc.

Perhaps "wrong" is the incorrect term. I do, however, think that eating meat (only if it is viable for you to eat a veggie diet) is weak. It shows a weakness of the heart (do you know anything of where and how our American meat comes from?), and it actually harms the health of your body. If you are financially and otherwise able to do so, eating a vegetarian/vegan diet is tremendously better for your health, for the environment, for humanity itself, for the world, and further, it is a sign of compassion.

I would eat meat if I could afford prices from local farms (we have a farm in the area that raises and kills humanely). But most animal products are horrendously acquired, particularly in America, to feed such a growing and unheard of population. Meat and dairy are acquired in a radically different way this past century.

Think what you want, and be happy about your bacon. That's fine. I don't judge you. Neither does Christ, as he in fact has blessed the consumption of meat. But the better, stronger, healthier, more loving choice in our day and age is to either not consume animal products or TRULY know where you get them from. And to deny this blatant reality in today's world is either ignorance or, well, straight up denial.

(An edit to add my agreement and appreciation for Cappadocious' post.)

 

[ChirpChirp]

Perhaps "wrong" is the incorrect term. I do, however, think that eating meat (only if it is viable for you to eat a veggie diet) is weak. It shows a weakness of the heart (do you know anything of where and how our American meat comes from?), and it actually harms the health of your body. If you are financially and otherwise able to do so, eating a vegetarian/vegan diet is tremendously better for your health, for the environment, for humanity itself, for the world, and further, it is a sign of compassion.

Eating meat doesn't harm your health. Eating meat unhealthily cooked does. Everything in moderation. Vegetarians and especially vegans should regularly get check ups because they run into deficiencies easier than someone who consumes meat as part of their diet (I'm talking about longer-term, not the period of fasting). God knew what is good for us when he blessed meat

I see your argument about where meat is sourced from though, and it is very valid.

 

[rusmeister]

Again, I feel like you're confusing morally wrong with either "sinful" or some other term. Sure, bless meat. Celebrate Christ is risen! It is all very good, and I have no qualm with it. Eat meat and be a part of the Church and I will not judge you. I feel like you're missing how drastically life and the world have changed. Within 200 or so years our numbers increased by 6 billion, power has changed, resources and their acquirement have changed, etc.

Perhaps "wrong" is the incorrect term. I do, however, think that eating meat (only if it is viable for you to eat a veggie diet) is weak. It shows a weakness of the heart (do you know anything of where and how our American meat comes from?), and it actually harms the health of your body. If you are financially and otherwise able to do so, eating a vegetarian/vegan diet is tremendously better for your health, for the environment, for humanity itself, for the world, and further, it is a sign of compassion.

I would eat meat if I could afford prices from local farms (we have a farm in the area that raises and kills humanely). But most animal products are horrendously acquired, particularly in America, to feed such a growing and unheard of population. Meat and dairy are acquired in a radically different way this past century.

Think what you want, and be happy about your bacon. That's fine. I don't judge you. Neither does Christ, as he in fact has blessed the consumption of meat. But the better, stronger, healthier, more loving choice in our day and age is to either not consume animal products or TRULY know where you get them from. And to deny this blatant reality in today's world is either ignorance or, well, straight up denial.

(An edit to add my agreement and appreciation for Cappadocious' post.)

Thanks! I appreciate the gracious tone!

Still, your feeling is wrong, and "wrong" is the right word. I have a fairly clear understanding of what sin is in Orthodox theology. (Remember, I've lived more than two of your lifetimes, and have three decades of adult thinking behind me. The "age card" is not completely irrelevant, as you would admit if a nine-year old challenged your own ideas. I do not say that makes me right, I only caution you to consider that I have had a great deal more time than you to think about things, and your not having seen my expression of it doesn't mean I missed it.) As sin is, first of all, a broken relationship with God, what is morally wrong is always sinful.
Secondly, I think I have a much CLEARER picture of how the world has changed, because I actually remember over forty years of that change, never mind my own knowledge of history. I actually remember, for example, when people understood clearly that "gender" was a grammatical concept, and did not confuse it with one's sex, as they do today.

Your ideas are Eastern Asian, Hindu/Buddhist, and the remark about compassion is the particular giveaway. They are in no wise Christian in origin.

I do think you are right and that we ought to truly know where our food comes from, and that the local farm is indeed the ideal. But it is NOT "more loving" to refuse to eat animal products. If we follow this logic, then we must reject all benefits that animals bring us. It leads to the Doukhabors, freeing the chickens in their compassion for their fellow beings and wishing them a nice life in the wild. Wool must not be gathered. And so on.

No one is denying realities, when they are actually real. You could list a hundred abuses that I would agree are abuses, and they would not invalidate good and proper use.

FTR, over here the world is a lot less antiseptic, and I watch meat hacked up in front of me, and a good deal more of the killed animal than is typical for Americans. We get most of our dairy straight from a local farm, and so, when the charges of modern industrial abuse have been dismissed, what's left? Weakness? In what? Your sentimentality? I even sympathize with that, but live in a world, a culture and climate where a lot of your understandings are simply not relevant. When it gets down to minus 25 and below in central Russia, nothing beats a fur hat to keep your head warm. I have one (rabbit) that is older than you, and it is faded, and my wife dislikes it because it is "old-fashioned", and my concession to your concerns is that I don't get a new one because I don't need it.

Finally, in your own comments I see self-contradiction. I see both condemnation of use of animals combined with an expressed willingness to do it if you could afford it.

It is the condemnation in principle that is wrong, and if a human life is saved or significantly bettered by responsible use of animals, then you really don't have good objections that do not contradict either Christian tradition or themselves.

Our culture as swung around to a point where animal life is valued more highly than human life; at the very least, we thoroughly confuse the two and no longer see the difference.

I hope you don't see any personal offense in my words. I take none in yours (though I could see it if I chose to). I know it is not intended.