Music: If it feels good, do it!

[Epecho]

Originally Posted by Hammster

"Still nothing about instruments."

Originally Posted by Epecho

Consider this....

"13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests." - Hebrews 7:13-14


In this passage the Hebrew writer points out that the Law of Moses did not authorize priests from any other tribe but Levi. Not because it was specifically forbidden, but because the Law said nothing about it.

Hammster, The Bible doesn't forbid entrance to Islam or Buddhism, does that mean it's ok? The Bible doesn't say anything about adding peanut butter to the bread in communion or exchanging the fruit of the vine for a soda called "Fruit of the Vine" or having multiple wives. Does that make those things ok?

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​

No, you can't have multiple wives. And there is a description of the Lord's Supper.

If this is your best argument, it's pretty weak.

Your right there is a description of the Lord's supper. So would you be ok with adding peanut butter to the bread in communion or exchanging the fruit of the vine for a soda called "Fruit of the Vine", since the Bible doesn't forbid it?

How do you know you can't have multiple wives?

Also, could you explain to me how my argument is weak?

 

[Hammster]

Originally Posted by Hammster

"Still nothing about instruments."

Originally Posted by Epecho

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​

Your right there is a description of the Lord's supper. So would you be ok with adding peanut butter to the bread in communion or exchanging the fruit of the vine for a soda called "Fruit of the Vine", since the Bible doesn't forbid it?

How do you know you can't have multiple wives?

Also, could you explain to me how my argument is weak?

For your argument to be valid, there would have to be a description of worship services that were specific in the use of voices only, or something along those lines. In the case of communion, you don't add peanut butter because scripture is clear of what the bread represents. The fact that you would even use that to further your already weak argument is a bit troubling. But I digress.

Since there's no description if, or hint of, worship without instruments, to use instruments isn't "adding" to scripture. It would only be adding if it was clear that there was a reason for voices only.

That's why your argument is weak.

 

[Hammster]

I truly fear the church today has lost its power by inventing its own way and no one respects the church in this day. It has become a joke, a religious social club to enjoy get-togethers and hear a good foot-stomping gospel sing and call it worship. On social issues it has become just another PAC with a religious veneer.​

And why do you think that this is representative of my local church?

 

[Epecho]

For your argument to be valid, there would have to be a description of worship services that were specific in the use of voices only, or something along those lines. In the case of communion, you don't add peanut butter because scripture is clear of what the bread represents. The fact that you would even use that to further your already weak argument is a bit troubling. But I digress.

Since there's no description if, or hint of, worship without instruments, to use instruments isn't "adding" to scripture. It would only be adding if it was clear that there was a reason for voices only.

That's why your argument is weak.

God is clear as to the type of music He wants in Christian worship.

• Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26 - After instituting the Lord's supper Jesus and His disciples sang a hymn.
• Acts 16:25 - In prison, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God.
• Romans 15:9 - Prophets had predicted that (in the gospel age) Gentiles would glorify God for His mercy and sing to His name.
• 1 Corinthians 14:15 - I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding.
• Ephesians 5:19 - Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.
• Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
• Hebrews 2:12 - In the midst of the congregation I will sing praise to You.
• Hebrews 13:15 - Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
• James 5:13 - Is any cheerful, let him sing psalms.

Consider the consequence for practices not revealed in the New Testament. Since the Bible contains all truth, all good works, etc., does it not follow that any practice not found there is not true, not a good work, and does not pertain to life or godliness? How then can we practice these things and expect to please God?

• John 16:13 (14:26) - The Holy Spirit revealed all truth to the apostles. What the Spirit revealed, they then wrote in the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 11:23; 14:37; 15:8; 1 John 1:1-4; Ephesians 3:3-5).
• Acts 20:20,27 - Paul preached the whole counsel of God, keeping back nothing that was profitable.
• 2 Timothy 3:16,17 - All good works are recorded in the Scriptures. So the Scriptures are profitable to teach and instruct men in righteousness, etc.
• 2 Peter 1:3 - In Peter's lifetime, people received all things that pertained to life and godliness. Having received these things, Peter wrote them down so that, even after he died, we could be reminded of the words of Jesus' apostles and prophets (2 Peter 1:12-15; 3:1,2).

Specifically, if God wants instrumental praise today, wouldn't the New Testament reveal this like the Old Testament did? Singing is part of the truth and a good work, etc., since it is revealed. But instruments are not revealed, so how can we use them and be abiding in the truth?

 

[Hammster]

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. (Colossians 3:16 NASB)


Praise the Lord ! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord ! (Psalms 150:1-6 NASB)

Is this a psalm that can be sung today?

 

[56Bluesman]

God is clear as to the type of music He wants in Christian worship.

• Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26 - After instituting the Lord's supper Jesus and His disciples sang a hymn.
• Acts 16:25 - In prison, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God.
• Romans 15:9 - Prophets had predicted that (in the gospel age) Gentiles would glorify God for His mercy and sing to His name.
• 1 Corinthians 14:15 - I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding.
• Ephesians 5:19 - Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.
• Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
• Hebrews 2:12 - In the midst of the congregation I will sing praise to You.
• Hebrews 13:15 - Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
• James 5:13 - Is any cheerful, let him sing psalms.

Consider the consequence for practices not revealed in the New Testament. Since the Bible contains all truth, all good works, etc., does it not follow that any practice not found there is not true, not a good work, and does not pertain to life or godliness? How then can we practice these things and expect to please God?

• John 16:13 (14:26) - The Holy Spirit revealed all truth to the apostles. What the Spirit revealed, they then wrote in the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 11:23; 14:37; 15:8; 1 John 1:1-4; Ephesians 3:3-5).
• Acts 20:20,27 - Paul preached the whole counsel of God, keeping back nothing that was profitable.
• 2 Timothy 3:16,17 - All good works are recorded in the Scriptures. So the Scriptures are profitable to teach and instruct men in righteousness, etc.
• 2 Peter 1:3 - In Peter's lifetime, people received all things that pertained to life and godliness. Having received these things, Peter wrote them down so that, even after he died, we could be reminded of the words of Jesus' apostles and prophets (2 Peter 1:12-15; 3:1,2).

Specifically, if God wants instrumental praise today, wouldn't the New Testament reveal this like the Old Testament did? Singing is part of the truth and a good work, etc., since it is revealed. But instruments are not revealed, so how can we use them and be abiding in the truth?

You might want to read Revelations chapter 15 through and through. Indeed the saints before the throne, are given harps in the book of Revelation, which I do believe is part of the New Testament canon. As for a prohibition for the current church age in regards to the use of musical instruments in worship, I can find none in scripture. Thank goodness my liberty is in Christ and not the traditions of men.

 

[strelok0017]

Binding someone's conscience by tradition is dangerous. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? That was Acts 15:10.

It generally refers to all the external observances of the OT that, once accomplished in Christ, became indifferent in their moral value. We are in fact told that we are provoking God by putting a yoke on others. Just something to pray about.

 

[Epecho]

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. (Colossians 3:16 NASB)


Praise the Lord ! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord ! (Psalms 150:1-6 NASB)

Is this a psalm that can be sung today?

The part of the psalm speaking about praising the Lord with instrumental music would not be ok to sing today. It would not be wise to teach the use of instrumental music in worship since it has not been approved by God for the church.

 

[now faith]

God is clear as to the type of music He wants in Christian worship.

• Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26 - After instituting the Lord's supper Jesus and His disciples sang a hymn.
• Acts 16:25 - In prison, Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God.
• Romans 15:9 - Prophets had predicted that (in the gospel age) Gentiles would glorify God for His mercy and sing to His name.
• 1 Corinthians 14:15 - I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the understanding.
• Ephesians 5:19 - Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.
• Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
• Hebrews 2:12 - In the midst of the congregation I will sing praise to You.
• Hebrews 13:15 - Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
• James 5:13 - Is any cheerful, let him sing psalms.

Consider the consequence for practices not revealed in the New Testament. Since the Bible contains all truth, all good works, etc., does it not follow that any practice not found there is not true, not a good work, and does not pertain to life or godliness? How then can we practice these things and expect to please God?

• John 16:13 (14:26) - The Holy Spirit revealed all truth to the apostles. What the Spirit revealed, they then wrote in the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 11:23; 14:37; 15:8; 1 John 1:1-4; Ephesians 3:3-5).
• Acts 20:20,27 - Paul preached the whole counsel of God, keeping back nothing that was profitable.
• 2 Timothy 3:16,17 - All good works are recorded in the Scriptures. So the Scriptures are profitable to teach and instruct men in righteousness, etc.
• 2 Peter 1:3 - In Peter's lifetime, people received all things that pertained to life and godliness. Having received these things, Peter wrote them down so that, even after he died, we could be reminded of the words of Jesus' apostles and prophets (2 Peter 1:12-15; 3:1,2).

Specifically, if God wants instrumental praise today, wouldn't the New Testament reveal this like the Old Testament did? Singing is part of the truth and a good work, etc., since it is revealed. But instruments are not revealed, so how can we use them and be abiding in the truth?

By constructing these verses,you are condemning all Instruments,no pianos,or even organs.

Seems that most Churches have a pianos,the sword of legalism cuts both ways.

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So I would not seek to change your worship,why would you condemn mine?

 

[Hammster]

The part of the psalm speaking about praising the Lord with instrumental music would not be ok to sing today. It would not be wise to teach the use of instrumental music in worship since it has not been approved by God for the church.

You would think that Paul, a Pharisee, would have made mention of that when he mentioned in two separate letters about psalms.

No, I'll stick with instruments since they aren't prohibited directly or by inference.

 

[now faith]

The part of the psalm speaking about praising the Lord with instrumental music would not be ok to sing today. It would not be wise to teach the use of instrumental music in worship since it has not been approved by God for the church.

It was approved by God for David, and to dance as well.
Jesus was a descendant of David.

 

[Hammster]

It's asinine to think that not only were instruments allowed in it worship, they were encouraged. And now, some folks think that they are prohibited? And what's that based on? Conjecture. And then they want to put this undue burden on the rest if us.

Makes me sad.

 

[now faith]

It's asinine to think that not only were instruments allowed in it worship, they were encouraged. And now, some folks think that they are prohibited? And what's that based on? Conjecture. And then they want to put this undue burden on the rest if us.

Makes me sad.

Well same thing with pants on women,and all the other legality.
But If I were to attend a Church I would abide by their laws so not to offend them.

I would not be sad considering some Churches play with rattle snakes lol.

Can you imagine walking into the middle of a snake charming service

 

[Epecho]

You might want to read Revelations chapter 15 through and through. Indeed the saints before the throne, are given harps in the book of Revelation, which I do believe is part of the New Testament canon. As for a prohibition for the current church age in regards to the use of musical instruments in worship, I can find none in scripture. Thank goodness my liberty is in Christ and not the traditions of men.

Heaven is a spiritual realm inhabited by spirit beings (1 Corinthians 15:50; Hebrews 12:23). Do you really believe that God, Who is spirit (John 4:24) or anyone else is actually holding, and playing literal physical musical instruments?

6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, ..." - Revelation 5:6-8

If literal harps will be in heaven, then we will not see Jesus in heaven. Instead, we will see a lamb with seven horns. If harps and other musical instruments are authorized because they are mentioned here in Revelation, then incense and animal sacrifice are also authorized in Christian worship.
Since the golden bowls full of incense are explained as being the prayers of the saints, the harp is also symbolic, representing praise to the Lord. Are prayers actually bowls or are bowls literally prayers?

The harps spoken of in Revelation 15 are no more literal than the other images spoken of in the context.

2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. 3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying..... - Revelation 15:2,3

Again the harps are symbolic of praises to God.

Thank goodness my liberty is in Christ and not the traditions of men.

This statement you made doesn't make any sense. Please explain. Do you really believe musical instruments in worship is not a tradition of man?

 

[Epecho]

It's asinine to think that not only were instruments allowed in it worship, they were encouraged. And now, some folks think that they are prohibited? And what's that based on? Conjecture. And then they want to put this undue burden on the rest if us.

Makes me sad.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up worship under Mosaic Law to be authorization for matters of Christian worship. (Rom. 7:4; Gal. 3:24-25; Col. 2:14)

And what's that based on?"

The simplest, most concise answer is this: It is a matter of authority. There is no authority for the use of a mechanical instrument in Christian worship.

Perhaps you are unaware of the condemnation of will-worship.

23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. - Colossians 2:23

Here is the original Greek word used for will-worship in Col. 2:23 and Vine's definition of the term:

ethelothreskeia (Strong's #1479) - "will-worship" (ethelo, "to will," threskeia, "worship"), occurs in Colossians 2:23, voluntarily adopted "worship," whether unbidden or forbidden, not that which is imposed by others, but which one affects."

There is no record in the NT of the use of instruments in the musical worship of the Christian church” Wycliffe Bible Dictionary, Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1998, p. 1163).

It is clear that we are to worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). And we know what the truth is (John 17:17).

17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. - John 17:17​

6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another." - 1 Corinthians 4:6 (emp. mine)​

The Christian must not go outside the bounds of Christ's authority.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

 

[Hammster]

Worship in the OT had nothing to do with the Mosaic law. It had to do with worship. And if Paul hadn't wanted instruments used in worship, he would have mentioned it in Colossians and Ephesians. So Paul didn't mention it. None of the gospel accounts mention it. Peter? Nope. John, in his epistles? Not him either. Hmmm. It's looking more and more like conjecture really is ruling the day with the legalists.

 

[56Bluesman]

Heaven is a spiritual realm inhabited by spirit beings (1 Corinthians 15:50; Hebrews 12:23). Do you really believe that God, Who is spirit (John 4:24) or anyone else is actually holding, and playing literal physical musical instruments?



If literal harps will be in heaven, then we will not see Jesus in heaven. Instead, we will see a lamb with seven horns. If harps and other musical instruments are authorized because they are mentioned here in Revelation, then incense and animal sacrifice are also authorized in Christian worship.
Since the golden bowls full of incense are explained as being the prayers of the saints, the harp is also symbolic, representing praise to the Lord. Are prayers actually bowls or are bowls literally prayers?

The harps spoken of in Revelation 15 are no more literal than the other images spoken of in the context.



Again the harps are symbolic of praises to God.



This statement you made doesn't make any sense. Please explain. Do you really believe musical instruments in worship is not a tradition of man?

I believe that musical instruments can be just as much as a tradition of men as the prohibitions that men make against them are, when they do so without scriptural warrant! As for the harps mentioned in Revelation 15, and yes I'm very much aware of the symbolism going on; thank you very much, regardless, I find it very odd that the vision of the Heavenly worship before the throne would include mention of such instrumental accompaniment along with the singing of praises, if indeed the use of such instruments were under prohibition for the church.

 

[Epecho]

As for the harps mentioned in Revelation 15, and yes I'm very much aware of the symbolism going on; thank you very much, regardless, I find it very odd that the vision of the Heavenly worship before the throne would include mention of such instrumental accompaniment along with the singing of praises, if indeed the use of such instruments were under prohibition for the church.

...think about what was going on at the time in history it was written.
Here is a quote that may help give you a little more insight. I encourage you to do your own study on Apocalyptic language

The book of Revelation is a form of literature styled "apocalyptic," which means that it is characterized by a series of visions which are portrayed in symbolic language (cf 1:1). ...this type of writing was common in times of great danger (which is clearly evidenced in this book). It was employed to "smuggle" a message of hope to the Lord's people, when an unambiguous declaration of victory would have multiplied their afflictions.

Significantly, the signs of the book are largely borrowed from the Old Testament which, of course, would be familiar to the saints. Of the 404 verses in Revelation, some 265 contain references from the Old Testament, involving approximately 550 Old Testament passages.​

The basic design of the book is to show that, in spite of the devastating persecution to which Christians were being -and would be-subjected, the cause of Jesus Christ would ultimately be victorious over all opposing forces. The key word in Revelation is "overcome" (cf. 2:7, 11, 17,26; 3:5, 12, 21).Christ has "overcome" (5:5), and so shall his people." - Wayne Jackson, Revelation: Jesus Christ's Final Message of Hope, pg. 4

 

[Epecho]

Worship in the OT had nothing to do with the Mosaic law. It had to do with worship. And if Paul hadn't wanted instruments used in worship, he would have mentioned it in Colossians and Ephesians. So Paul didn't mention it. None of the gospel accounts mention it. Peter? Nope. John, in his epistles? Not him either. Hmmm. It's looking more and more like conjecture really is ruling the day with the legalists.

Who was under Mosaic Law? Jews
What references do you keep on referring to in OT for authorization for instrumental music in worship to God? Jewish


Hammster, you basically keep repeating yourself after I have shown that your arguments are not valid in light of Bible authority. Please refer to my last reply to you. It was at: 29th April 2013 10:25 PM.
Little children understand this principle. Ever play "Simon Says"? What happens if you raise your hand when Simon doesn't say?


In order to prove your point you would have to show me that what the Bible does say doesn't matter.

 

[Hammster]

Who was under Mosaic Law? Jews
What references do you keep on referring to in OT for authorization for instrumental music in worship to God? Jewish


Hammster, you basically keep repeating yourself after I have shown that your arguments are not valid in light of Bible authority. Please refer to my last reply to you. It was at: 29th April 2013 10:25 PM.
Little children understand this principle. Ever play "Simon Says"? What happens if you raise your hand when Simon doesn't say?


In order to prove your point you would have to show me that what the Bible does say doesn't matter.

In the OT, would you be sinning if you didn't use instruments in worship?