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Interesting to consider..I don't need one, nor did we need one for any other major event in world history with an ultra-rare few exceptions.
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Interesting to consider..I don't need one, nor did we need one for any other major event in world history with an ultra-rare few exceptions.
Gxg (G²);62923983 said:Again, none of that deals with scripture - as Christ still reigns/is the scepter and has NEVER lost. And his own have received him continually (Messianic Jews and Jews of the early church and others throughout the centuries who trusted in Him) - even though other Jews did not. There's a context to the Lost House of Israel that needs to be kept in mind...
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Judah was the custodian of the sceptre only until Shiloh, Christ, came. The destruction of the temple and the Levitical priesthood is pretty good evidence that God meant it.
And because there were a few believing Jews in no way negates Jesus primary mission to house of Israel.
Gxg (G²);62923983 said:Yeshua was not just King over Israel--but literally King of the ENTIRE WORLD and the Nations (long before anything of Israel even came up). He identified with the Samaritan people (i.e. woman at the well in John 4, Luke 9, etc), the demoniac who was healed in Gentile territory in Mark 5 and many other places. Apart from that, scripture was very explicit about the ways that the Lord chose to work in other nations outside of Israel just as He did with others within Israel.
Response to the OP
Response to the OP:
The British/Israel theology is a ruse
Herbert W. Armstrong and his earlier mentors were totally off course with their theology and there are still splinter groups who hold to his teachings today
Gxg (G²);62918924 said:Nothing in scripture says the promises were without conditions anymore than saying someone who is Jewish is automatically going to be saved or with blessings...
Show me the scriptures that lay conditions on these prophecies. Please be brief. You have a tendency to 'flood the zone' with more material than is necessary. I have to 'mine' your posts to find the errors.
Gxg (G²);62923983 said:Incorrect - seeing that the land was taken, the descendants prospered and saw God work. One has to avoid history to say otherwise. The natural blessing was for Ephraim and Manasseh to multiply like fishes (Numbers 26:34, 37). It became a blessing among Israelites. At one time Ephraim numbered 40,500 men able to bear arms; Manasseh numbered 52,700, and was permitted additional land besides his brother west of Jordan to the sea. The blessing was that they should "grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth", in the core of the land of their inheritance. And as we look at the map of Canaan as divided among the Tribes we see Ephraim and Manasseh have their inheritance in the midst of Joseph's own sons
These numbers are hardly impressive. Several tribes put more in the field than either Ephraim or Manasseh.
Numbers 1:
18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
19 As the Lord commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
So their growing into a 'multitude in the midst of the earth' was for a future time as there was nothing noteworthy about their population at this time.
House of Israel deals with the JEWISH people - and thus, as said before, it's a false distinction whenever one tries to avoid that simple reality (as the early body of believers well understood when it came to Israel NEVER being separate from the Jewish people). Anything else is making things up as one goes along - and Yeshua did his mission with the House of Israel when it came to witnessing to His own people.Sorry if I wasn't clear. Judah was the custodian of the sceptre only until Shiloh, Christ, came. The destruction of the temple and the Levitical priesthood is pretty good evidence that God meant it.
And because there were a few believing Jews in no way negates Jesus primary mission to house of Israel.
Doesn't matter - nor is the scripture you gave dealing with anything on the actual history of where Eprhraim was already dominant in Israel and blessed - for others having times when they were prominent doesn't mean Ephraim was not in the majority position most of the time. It's hardly impressive when one skips scripture to make a point that goes past the obvious..These numbers are hardly impressive. Several tribes put more in the field than either Ephraim or Manasseh.
Numbers 1:
18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
19 As the Lord commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
So their growing into a 'multitude in the midst of the earth' was for a future time as there was nothing noteworthy about their population at this time
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Wrong -as any system of thought attempting to say that scriptures supports a viewpoint is a system of theology - and British Israelism is just that...as well as wrong on multiple points and with too much off base with it to defend credibly, lest one already has an assumption that they WANT to be true rather than letting the scriptures be true on what they noted and how the Hebrew culture handled things.British Israelism isn't theology, it's history. And it's waaaay too good not to be true mostly.
When you actually deal with the scriptures already given on the issue and show from scripture where conditions were NOT in place. ..then one can talk. The issue was already covered earlier when another shared on the issue you disagree with (as seen in #52 ).Show me the scriptures that lay conditions on these prophecies. Please be brief..a tendency to 'flood the zone' with more material than is necessary. I have to 'mine' your posts to find the errors
Pretty much...It is a conspiracy theory that the UN or the EU has anything to do with the End Times, fuels by nothing more than rematerialized premillennialism combined with American Nationalism.
Gxg (G²);62931562 said:House of Israel deals with the JEWISH people - and thus, as said before, it's a false distinction whenever one tries to avoid that simple reality (as the early body of believers well understood when it came to Israel NEVER being separate from the Jewish people). Anything else is making things up as one goes along - and Yeshua did his mission with the House of Israel when it came to witnessing to His own people.
When did the northern kingdom, the house of Israel, rejoin the house of Judah? In other words when did the two 'sticks' of Ezekiel become one stick?
Avoiding the issue on your part - as nothing said there (again) deals remotely with showing where Israel was NOT the Hebrew/Jewish people. Another false distinction others often make is trying to pit Israel against Judah - as opposed to understanding where they were already united.When did the northern kingdom, the house of Israel, rejoin the house of Judah? In other words when did the two 'sticks' of Ezekiel become one stick?
Here's the problem with that whole idea...
God's people COLLECTIVELY (meaning all Christians), are to consider themselves as "aliens and strangers in the world"...wherever we live in the world.
The church has replaced Israel as God's light to the world.
When Jesus gave the beatidues, He was addressing Israel and He told them "You are the light of the world". Now fast forward. Christ has been raised and ascended to the Father, and the church is in full swing. Paul then tells us that we Christians are lights in Phillipians 2:14-16:
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
Peter then tells us we are a "holy nation and a royal priesthood". Therefore, there is no one nation God is using. He's using His people in all these nations collectively.
Gxg (G²);62931578 said:When you actually deal with the scriptures already given on the issue and show from scripture where conditions were NOT in place. ..then one can talk. The issue was already covered earlier when another shared on the issue you disagree with (as seen in #52 ).
As it is, "necessary" is always a subjective matter - for whereas others have no issue addressing something for what it is, whenever there is reason one doesn't want to tackle it, any reason will do for why something is "more material than is necessary" rather than addressment of the fact that it's really not a universal as much as a matter of it not being what one is able to handle in their own ability. People are at differing levels and some have higher capacity to handle swiftly/quickly what others may take awhile on - and as it is, there has already been brief dealing with things and that is problematic when that much is side-stepped.
If you're going to be here, please stick to the topic/address scripture as it is - for thus far, you've given no scripture on multiple points and made assumptions as if they were already proven and expect others to take that seriously (circular logic) - as well as avoiding where there were already scriptures addressed on the issue of relationship NOT being unconditional lest universalism be promoted. When a couple of scriptures are given directly and one has to avoid that in order to say "Well, give me more scripture" - the bottom line is that actually reading through scripture/study is not the focus since those who want to do so deal with it/not complain.
No one is going to take that seriously if the Word of God is really the focus. And you have a tendency to avoid material where it is necessary in the same way one reads past the central issue in a text because they wanted a micro-wave answer for a subject which requires in-depth study or is intricate enough that giving pat answers/over-simplified responses doesn't really address the topic........and to do so is compounded with error when one then asks questions without doing basic research. This in addition o choosing to avoid scripture where it is easy - and several have noted that already before. If one is going to deal with the Word, they need to be ready to do so comprehensively and not make excuses for it, as flooding the zone with rambles that don't deal with scripture is never necessary and no one is going to go through all of that in order to address what God has already said in the Word. Either one makes it up as they go along - or they can deal with scripture point for point, precept upon precept ..and actually deal with the way it has been addressed historically rather than importing into the text anything they think.
Scripture was already given - as others have also shared ( #52 - and later here in #72 ). You could've addressed it in the aforementioned post rather than finding reasons to not do so and try claiming it hasn't been given.You could have used this post to show me the scriptures that place conditions on the aforementioned prophecies.
Gxg (G²);62931710 said:Scripture was already given - as others have also shared ( #52 - and later here in #72 ). You could've addressed it in the aforementioned post rather than finding reasons to not do so and try claiming it hasn't been given.
As said before, no one is going to take anything seriously that is within the realm of avoiding scripture/claiming it was not given out and asking for it again as if people have to do the homework others should do - and if serious addressment of the Word is the goal, then the Word will be addressed when given (including in reference). It is what it is.
Wrong - seeing the amount of Jewish believers in the Church is extensive - for anyone remotely aware of the history of Jewish believers in the Body of Christ and Messianic Jews today. There are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide, according to various counts...although they are a tiny minority in Israel -- just 10,000-20,000 people by some estimates -- but growing, according to both its proponents and critics. The Church has always been Jew and Gentile - all of whom are God's Israel, the Israel of God. Judah was never solely connected to the Jews and that's a basic error often promoted by others who advance British Israelism - and as said before, it is a racist ideology/anti-semetic whenever others try to say that Jews are not part of the Christian Church.Of the world's Jewish population how many do you think are in the church? The church is not composed of Jews, but it is composed of Israelites (and others of course), of the house of Israel. The house of Judah, the worldwide population of Jews, is not part of the Christian church. Did Christ fail, or did he succeed in calling his 'other' sheep.
Wrong - as you gave scripture SELECTIVELY without dealing with the context and addressing the other scriptures others already brought up that handle the issue....in addition to addressing where you already took scripture outside of its historical background to say what it NEVER said since God never made all promises to Israel as being unconditional.I gave you the prophetic scriptures.
I said they were unconditional.
.
As said before, reference was already given in addition to scripture earlier in #52 - and later here in #72 (and for discussion for other places further back where discussion occurred, one can go to #267/#50 /#56 /#57, #37 ,#39 #44 #60 #64 ).You said they were conditional.
I asked for the scriptures that prove that they were conditional, because I cannot find those conditions.
Alot of what Hebert W noted was addressed later by members of the church...one of the most notable being how the use of medicine and doctors was discouraged because members were expected to place their faith in God for healing...and another being on long hair not being allowed for men, nor piercings.The British/Israel theology is a ruse
Herbert W. Armstrong and his earlier mentors were totally off course with their theology and there are still splinter groups who hold to his teachings today
Gxg (G²);62931729 said:Wrong - as you gave scripture SELECTIVELY without dealing with the context and addressing the other scriptures others already brought up that handle the issue....in addition to addressing where you already took scripture outside of its historical background to say what it NEVER said since God never made all promises to Israel as being unconditional.
That is never a matter of dealing with scripture...
As said before, reference was already given in addition to scripture earlier in #52 - and later here in #72 . No one is going to do your homework for you if avoiding the scripture already noted earlier when it comes to the addressment of scriptures pertaining to a conditional reality...for that's avoiding doing what's basic if really serious about the Word. It doesn't take much to go back/investigate a reference as others (including myself) do so all the time - and the same applies here.
Thus far, by your logic, you've already failed to actually live that out since there are dozens of scriptures others have already brought up (due to serious study) that are expected to be known amongst others really reading the Word - and you've avoided most of them while still asking for more.If I recited one of the ten commandments would you insist that I recite all ten in order to place it in context? I expect you to know what I'm talking about when I mention a scripture. .If you know the bible you know the proper context. You shouldn't have to recite the whole bible every time you want to make a point.
And as said before, you're making it up as you go along since scripture NEVER said anything close to that when it came to promises being unconditional. There's nothing in the scripture or supported by how the early Jewish believers felt with other non-believing Jews that all promises to Israel were ever unconditional - and one reinvents history everytime they try to speak past that basic reality.The prophecies concerning the future fate of the children of Israel were unconditional. There is nothing in scripture that says otherwise. History backs this up. In Genesis 49 Jacob told Judah that the sceptre would remain with him until Shiloh/Christ came. This happened right on schedule. When the temple and the Levitical priesthood were destroyed the 'lawgiver' ceased from between the feet of Judah and was conferred to the priesthood of Christ
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+2:6&version=NIVhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+2:6&version=NIV
Hebrews 7:14
For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
Revelation 5:5 Then one of the elders said to me, Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+7:14&version=NIV
Revelation 5:4-6