Confederate States of America: What Would've Happened if the South Won the Civil War.

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Gxg (G²);62923871 said:
That was already said before - and violated ( #59 / #65 ) , which doesn't make for consistency. Not really, as anyone can make up theology as they go/say it's established without ever addressing scripture or really showing the view historical. And as said before, it does zero trying to claim it's Biblical for America winning the Civil War being a "sign" that God was prospering them based on Biblical History - just as it was when others claimed that others wiped out in the development of the Spanish Empire were "destined" for such when they made themselves out to be the ones who were connected to the Bible/having a "divine right" for expansion in the New World. Imperialsim always flows out of that mindset and it's why it'll never be anything close to what the Bible or Biblical history supports...


It is not a thread on eschatology - nor a thread to attempt advancing/making points in support of British Israelism (unbiblical/divorced from history) or America connected to Israel (which was never a valid point made to begin with (and a distraction from the issues) or pseudo-biblical discussion on America/Britain being related to Joseph .Exactly what was already discussed and what others focused on in honor of the OP: Talking on what would've happened if the South had won (as the OP talks on) and addressing whether or not it was the best way to go about things with the Civil War. Nothing more and nothing less...and it's not that complicated.

Why would God end all prophecies concerning the nations with the Roman Empire, omitting the rise of great nations and empires since. Why a two thousand year prophecy gap between the days of Christ and the end time?
 
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Why would God end all prophecies concerning the nations with the Roman Empire, omitting the rise of great nations and empires since. Why a two thousand year prophecy gap between the days of Christ and the end time?
Again, please take it elsewhere as there are other threads for it and it doesn't belong here as that is not the focus.
 
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They both thought they were helping others. The North was fighting to set people free. But the south felt that they took good care of the slaves. They invited them into their home, they treated them like family. They fed them well. They believed that if there was no one to watch over them that they would starve to death. It was in the north where they felt the blacks were often imprisoned, neglected and mostly ignored. .
Very true - as both sides had good and both had bad. Hindsight is always 20/20..


Most every story ends the same way. They slave gets their freedom, then one day they go back to visit the old slave owner. The slave owner has fond memory of them and offers them their old job back at whatever the legal wage is. The slave turns the offer down because they remember being beaten or abused in some way. Although I have read storys of slaves that did feel they were treated fair and did not know life any different. Esp the children that would play with the owners child and did not feel any discrimination against them. Even they were well taken care of.
A lot of slaves did feel like they could do better if they remained in the South - and some blacks owned slaves as well and built their own communities while slave-masters who were not abusive sought to ensure they were provided for/given wages which were fair just like other lower-class whites were.
Often the slaves often felt that there was Justice. That if they were not treated right that sooner or later that would catch up with the slave owner and they would be punished for their bad treatment of others
Indeed..
 
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There were a sizeable number of Native Americans that fought for the South during the American Civil War. Will Thomas, a white man that was adopted by a Tsalagi (Cherokee) chief himself became principal chief of the Tsalagis of the Eastern Band of Cherokees in North Carolina, was in many ways as much a Tsalagi as a Native born one. He became a colonel for the Confederate Army in the Civil War and had a largely native outfit named Thomas Legion that fought (and beat) a Yankee force in the vicinity of Gatlinburg, Tenn. Also, in Oklahoma, another Tsalagi named Stand Watie was a brigadier General for the Confederate Army, and did not surrender to the Yankees til a full month after Lee surrendered at Appomattox. Also, many other Indian tribes and nations, especially in Oklahoma and Texas region, supported the South, including "Five Civilized Tribes" (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole) and other Indians that had relocated or been removed from back East to Oklahoma, such as Shawnee, Sauk and Fox, etc., fought for South, as did some plains and southwest tribes (e.g. some Commanche and Kiowa and Apache did, though not as many). Also, some fought for North, including Ned Christie, a Cherokee gunfighter on par with Jesse James or Wyatt Earp. The way the Indians had been treated in past (Trail of Tears, etc.) they saw the "Greycoats" (Confederates) as an alternative to the "Bluecoats" (Union). There were of course other factors (some Oklahoma Indians had black slaves, though not a lot, many Indians that fought for Confederacy, as well as many whites, did not own slaves at all or even believe in it). Very complex time period.

On the issue of Native Americans in the Civil War, found this and thought it was very relevant to the point you raised:

 
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Gxg (G²);62191172 said:
Many have no idea on how they were Confederate Slave owners who moved to Brazil (called the Confederados), as the slave trade was international and it opened up doors for commerce/business relationships throughout the Americas.

The history of the Conferados is truly fascinating..and for more, one can investigate a read entitled "The Deepest South: The United States, Brazil, and the African Slave Trade" ( ):

Having roots in Latin America, I'm aware of how the abuses in slavery were even worse there (and in the West Indies as well) than in North America....and I know there has always been strong racism present due to what the Portuguese and Spaniards did in coming over/setting up the systems they did. Thus, no surprise to see what happened with the active development of relationship between others in the American South and those in the Southern Hemisphere. The American Civil war even managed to spill into Brazil, as seen in the Bahia Incident ( a naval skirmish fought in late 1864 during the American Civil War where a Confederate States Navy warship was captured by a Union warship in Bahia Harbor, Brazil...and the engagement resulted in a United States victory, but also sparked an incident with the Brazilian government, which claimed the Americans had violated Brazil's neutrality by illegally attacking a vessel in their harbor..nore shared here).

SOuthern States desiring secession wanted to create a new International Empire called the "Golden Circle" that would've taken slavery onto an entirely different level. For what occurred with the Golden Circle (proposed country) was the unrealized pan-Caribbean political alliance of the 1850s, organized chiefly by United States adventurers, and envisioned the incorporation of several countries and states of the Americas into a federal union similar to the United States...it would've forced the states in the U.S to really reconsider a lot of things.

The balance of power between the northern and southern U.S. states was threatened by the proposed Golden Circle since Federalists feared that a new Caribbean-centered coalition would align the new Latin American states with the slave states in the US..tilting the balance of power southward and weakening U.S. federalism in favor of the Pan-American confederalist union, whereas those Americans in favor of the Gold Circle believed that an alignment with the remaining slaveholding Caribbean territories would reinforce their political strength.

Some have noted where there were black slave owners and having them involved made a difference - as seen in Black slave owners in the Golden Circle | Southern Nationalist - and it's amazing seeing how the narrative of all blacks being against the confederacy doesn't line up with history.

For more, one can study Chesteron's 1922 work called What I Saw in America. What Chesteron noted is especially considering the timing of it being written in 1922. This was less than 60 years removed from the Civil War. That would be like someone writing about Korea and Vietnam right now. The memories and direct consequences of those wars are still very real to us today. Chesterton was born in 1874, only four years after Virginia itself was re-admitted to the Union (1870). The crushing of secession was ultimately written down in history as the “right” thing to do, only because, ultimately, most Southerners accepted it as simply immutable. ...and to be clear, as many blacks fought in the Civil War on the side of the South for their own reasons (freedom being one of them (more here/here /here)as well as the fact that not all in the South endorsed slavery nor abuse as many in the North claimed---and for them, the North often didn't have much to offer). The Reconstruction was to be the re-programming of the Southern mind. It worked, and now Lincoln is seen as great. If, as Chesterton alludes to with his Irish example, the Southern spirit had continued to buck against centralized government and the resistance had continued into the twentieth century, Lincoln would be viewed more like Cromwell than Bismark.

Had the Confederacy won, who knows the ways things would have turned out for others in the Caribbean. people on both sides were concerned for the welfare of minorities...and there were people on both sides who couldn't of cared less about the plight of blacks. History is truly complicated...

There's actually a very amazing mockumentary on the issue entitled C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America (more shared here ) -as it explores the results of a Southern victory in the Civil War and posits the Golden Circle as a plan enacted after the war. One of the most wild and yet challenging critiques I've ever come across...


Little-Egypt-and-the-Golden-Circle.jpg



Thought it was noteworthy to mention that if some of our politicians had gotten their way, Cuba would be one of the states. Specifically, Jefferson wanted to annex Cuba (probably for the lucrative sugar crops) and later on, some Southern interests wanted to buy Cuba from Spain, so that there would be another slave state. There was even a proposal that if Spain didn't sell, we should take the island by force--the Ostend Manifesto (more at American Presidents Blog: The Ostend Manifesto and The Ostend Manifesto: Deadly Threats | Freedmen's Patrol )

Ostend Manifesto - YouTube

 
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Gxg (G²);62191172 said:
Many have no idea on how they were Confederate Slave owners who moved to Brazil (called the Confederados), as the slave trade was international and it opened up doors for commerce/business relationships throughout the Americas.

The history of the Conferados is truly fascinating..and for more, one can investigate a read entitled "The Deepest South: The United States, Brazil, and the African Slave Trade" ( ):

Having roots in Latin America, I'm aware of how the abuses in slavery were even worse there (and in the West Indies as well) than in North America....and I know there has always been strong racism present due to what the Portuguese and Spaniards did in coming over/setting up the systems they did. Thus, no surprise to see what happened with the active development of relationship between others in the American South and those in the Southern Hemisphere. The American Civil war even managed to spill into Brazil, as seen in the Bahia Incident ( a naval skirmish fought in late 1864 during the American Civil War where a Confederate States Navy warship was captured by a Union warship in Bahia Harbor, Brazil...and the engagement resulted in a United States victory, but also sparked an incident with the Brazilian government, which claimed the Americans had violated Brazil's neutrality by illegally attacking a vessel in their harbor..nore shared here).

SOuthern States desiring secession wanted to create a new International Empire called the "Golden Circle" that would've taken slavery onto an entirely different level. For what occurred with the Golden Circle (proposed country) was the unrealized pan-Caribbean political alliance of the 1850s, organized chiefly by United States adventurers, and envisioned the incorporation of several countries and states of the Americas into a federal union similar to the United States...it would've forced the states in the U.S to really reconsider a lot of things.

The balance of power between the northern and southern U.S. states was threatened by the proposed Golden Circle since Federalists feared that a new Caribbean-centered coalition would align the new Latin American states with the slave states in the US..tilting the balance of power southward and weakening U.S. federalism in favor of the Pan-American confederalist union, whereas those Americans in favor of the Gold Circle believed that an alignment with the remaining slaveholding Caribbean territories would reinforce their political strength.

Some have noted where there were black slave owners and having them involved made a difference - as seen in Black slave owners in the Golden Circle | Southern Nationalist - and it's amazing seeing how the narrative of all blacks being against the confederacy doesn't line up with history.

For more, one can study Chesteron's 1922 work called What I Saw in America. What Chesteron noted is especially considering the timing of it being written in 1922. This was less than 60 years removed from the Civil War. That would be like someone writing about Korea and Vietnam right now. The memories and direct consequences of those wars are still very real to us today. Chesterton was born in 1874, only four years after Virginia itself was re-admitted to the Union (1870). The crushing of secession was ultimately written down in history as the “right” thing to do, only because, ultimately, most Southerners accepted it as simply immutable. ...and to be clear, as many blacks fought in the Civil War on the side of the South for their own reasons (freedom being one of them (more here/here /here)as well as the fact that not all in the South endorsed slavery nor abuse as many in the North claimed---and for them, the North often didn't have much to offer). The Reconstruction was to be the re-programming of the Southern mind. It worked, and now Lincoln is seen as great. If, as Chesterton alludes to with his Irish example, the Southern spirit had continued to buck against centralized government and the resistance had continued into the twentieth century, Lincoln would be viewed more like Cromwell than Bismark.

Had the Confederacy won, who knows the ways things would have turned out for others in the Caribbean. people on both sides were concerned for the welfare of minorities...and there were people on both sides who couldn't of cared less about the plight of blacks. History is truly complicated...

There's actually a very amazing mockumentary on the issue entitled C.S.A.: The Confederate States of America (more shared here ) -as it explores the results of a Southern victory in the Civil War and posits the Golden Circle as a plan enacted after the war. One of the most wild and yet challenging critiques I've ever come across...


Little-Egypt-and-the-Golden-Circle.jpg

Gxg (G²);64657886 said:
Thought it was noteworthy to mention that if some of our politicians had gotten their way, Cuba would be one of the states. Specifically, Jefferson wanted to annex Cuba (probably for the lucrative sugar crops) and later on, some Southern interests wanted to buy Cuba from Spain, so that there would be another slave state. There was even a proposal that if Spain didn't sell, we should take the island by force--the Ostend Manifesto (more at American Presidents Blog: The Ostend Manifesto and The Ostend Manifesto: Deadly Threats | Freedmen's Patrol )

Ostend Manifesto - YouTube




Thought it would be worthwhile sharing one of the best documentaries I've seen on the issue of slavery and the ways that it has literally shaped the world when it comes to slavery in the Latin American world and the ways that things regarding the Confederacy's battles were intimately connected to a global context...

 
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Gxg (G²);62191172 said:
Really amazing article (in regards to the OP) on the political impact of Haiti's successful revolution - and the Confederate propaganda which used Haiti as an example to bolster it's cause...as seen if one chooses to go o to H-Net Reviews or the following:



What occurred with the Revolution - led by Toussaint Louverture - is a significant turning point in human history.

220px-G%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral_Toussaint_Louverture.jpg



As another noted wisely:


The Haitian people actually helped America win independence. In October 1779, a force of 500 free black Haitians joined American colonists and French troops in a battle to drive back British troops in Savannah, Georgia. Long before Haitians infamous recognition for migrating to the United States on boats, they fought and died in the American Revolutionary War. A life-sized bronze monument of four Haitian soldiers stands six feet tall atop a granite pillar in Savannah’s Franklin Square honoring Haiti’s contribution to American independence.

TIMELINE

1776 – Declaration of Independence

1779 – 500 free black Haitians join American colonists and French troops in the fight for American independence

1783 – American independence is established with the signing of the Treaty of Paris by the Kingdom of Great Britain and the newly formed United States of America

1804 – Haiti declares independence becoming the first independent nation in Latin America, the first black-led nation in the modern era, and the only nation whose independence was gained as part of a successful slave rebellion

1865 – U.S. President Abraham Lincoln signs the Emancipation Proclamation granting freedom to enslaved people in the Confederate States
Haiti’s revolution is significant not only because it was the sole major slave revolt to succeed in the history of African slavery in the Americas, but also because of its considerable influence on slavery in the United States. The events in Haiti, along with the rise of King Cotton, reinvigorated slavery in the American South. The accounts of thousands of whites massacred on Saint Domingue, bolstered by slave conspiracies in the 19th-century South, especially Nat Turner’s revolt in 1831, convinced many white Southerners that freed slaves would turn on their owners and other whites in an orgy of barbaric vengeance and hence must be kept enslaved to prevent bloody anarchy. Thomas Jefferson, himself a slaveholder, eloquently expressed this dilemma in 1820 when he wrote of the slaves “we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.” So white Southerners were afraid of their slaves, but feared emancipation even more. Which helps explain their vehemence in resisting even the slightest threat to peculiar institution’s survival and the final decision for secession. Abraham Lincoln’s election in the minds of many slaveholders brought the specter of Saint Domingue so close that safety only seemed possible by secession to preserve the institution that kept the slaves in check.

The Haitian Revolution was, as C. L. R. James noted in his classic Black Jacobins, “the only successful slave revolt in history,” and it was planned and carried out by the enslaved blacks of the French colony of Saint Domingue themselves, who effected their own transformation from “slaves, trembling in hundreds before a single white man, into a people able to organise themselves and defeat the most powerful European nations of their day.”

.....Frederick Douglass, who served as minister resident and consul general to Haiti from 1889 to 1891, aptly described white America’s responses to the Haitian Revolution, their discomfort with the black self-determination exhibited by the Haitian struggle for freedom, and the importance of a true vision of its history. Speaking in 1893 at Quinn Chapel, an important African Methodist Episcopal Church in Chicago, Douglass referred to the “coolness” toward Haiti by the United States, who refused to recognize Haiti’s independence until 1862 (after the secession of the Southern states), although France did so in 1825, with Britain following in 1833.

“Haiti is black, and we have not yet forgiven Haiti for being black,” Douglass noted; “after Haiti had shaken off the fetters of bondage, and long after her freedom and independence had been recognized by all other civilized nations, we continued to refuse to acknowledge the fact and treated her as outside the sisterhood of nations.” He did not disguise his anger as he described how despite the slaves’ heroic struggle which “made themselves free and independent,” American leaders continued to doubt “their ability to govern themselves” and demand that they “justify their assumption of statehood at the bar of the civilized world.” And he clearly articulated what a full understanding of the Haitian struggle means to African American—indeed, American—history as well as to the meanings we give the past:

"You and I and all of us have reason to respect Haiti for her services to the cause of liberty and human equality throughout the world, and for the noble qualities she exhibited in all the trying conditions of her early history. . . . We should not forget that the freedom you and I enjoy to-day; that the freedom that eight hundred thousand colored people enjoy in the British West Indies; the freedom that has come to the colored race the world over, is largely due to the brave stand taken by the black sons of Haiti 90 years ago."​






As said before elsewhere, “The freedom of the negroes, if recognised in Saint Domingue [Haiti] and legalised by France would at all times be a rallying point for freedom-seekers of the New World”, as said by U.S. president Thomas Jefferson...and it's not a hidden reality that the U.S actively worked with others to undermine Haiti since they were VERY fearful of their growth. In fact, the slave-owning President Thomas Jefferson imposed sanctions on Haiti in 1804 that lasted until 1862 - with these decades of sanctions cutting Haiti off from the world and even from the rest of the Caribbean since every ship that docked from a European country or from the U.S. could be an invasion or carry new demands for onerous concessions. Nontheless, Haiti survived.....and many blacks sought to immigrate to Haiti - Haiti occupied a HUGE role in the Black Consciousness...
(more discussed in Sanctuary: African Americans and Empire - Nicole Waligora-Davis - Google Books and Encyclopedia of African American History, 1619-1895: From the Colonial ... - Google Books ).

In fact, Frederick Douglass, in his “Lecture on Haiti,” which he delivered on Jan. 2, 1893 at the famous Quinn Chapel of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, posits that the Haitian Revolution was a turning point in world history and equally in the human narrative of freedom. He noted that the slaves at Saint-Domingue were also actors in history and key makers of modernity as well as proponents of freedom and defenders of the rights of all men and women. Moreover, Douglass also used the Haitian revolution to address the essentialist character of race and racial groups—an idea that was prevalent in his time—which scientific racism of the 19th century employed to account for “racial achievement” in world history.

But many Western nations still chose to oppose Haiti - for fears that Haiti's successful revolt could inspire slave insurrections in the United States led to increased restrictions on the movements of blacks in Southern states, with the racism of whites/Europeans against blacks being hard to ignore. But during the period of antebellum slavery and after, Haiti profoundly impacted the imagination of African-American political activism. Prior to the Civil War, Frederick Douglass spoke for most African-Americans when he referred to the "bright example" of Haiti, calling Toussaint Louverture "the noble liberator and law-giver of his brave and dauntless people."

Haiti went on to play a pivotal role (despite the attacks against it) in the liberation of Latin America from Spanish colonial rule - as they provided ships, soldiers, guns and provisions from their supplies Simón Bolívar when he was desperate. However, Haiti was still a threat to the U.S and thus they sought to take it by force later on...

People see the destruction that has occurred in Haiti - but not many wish to see that the stage for that was set by the neo-colonial manipulations of the Haitian economy and governments by the U.S. (as well as Canada and France), going back to the U.S. effort to destroy the independent state after the revolutionary slaves defeated the French and fear spread that success would motivate U.S. slaves to also rebel.

Not many consider the economic consequences of the Haitian Revolution and how the event served to diffuse and expand tropical exports elsewhere in the
Americas and amplify consumption in the United States and Western Europe
. It literally shifted the way that trade actually occurred - which later impacted dynamics of the Confederacy and the Union. And interestingly enough, even others for the Confederacy and the Golden Circle have noted the significance of the matter in how racial fear promoted a lot of the reactions that occurred - more seen in Hamilton vs Jefferson & Washington on Haitian Revolution | Southern Nationalist Network and Knights of the Golden Circle: Secret Empire, Southern Secession, Civil War by David C. Keehn

In light of how fear of a second Haitian Revolution was a fear in both the North and the South, Who knows what would have happened if Haiti had to deal with the Confederacy instead of the Union - but the history is fascinating. There was a pretty intensive book that I read recently on the matter and that amazed me, entitled Encountering Revolution: Haiti and the Making of the Early Republic by Ashli White

 
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Gxg (G²);62191172 said:
Some of the Founding Fathers had always been against slavery - although others actively supported it as a "necessary evil." For those touched sharply by the curse of slavery, they often did what they had to do - even if it meant breaking the law to get justice.

There is a recent film on the issue which seemed to address the issue sharply- called Django Unchained. The film is a three-hour Quentin Tarantino film, a cowboy-style Western set in the American slave South of 1858. The film itself has been rather remarkable - and has generated a greater conversation about the enslavement of my ancestors than any that I have witnessed perhaps since Roots because our society has long been in denial about African American slavery--America's original sin--since well-before its abolition. It's something I glad broke A LOT of rules in Hollywood with the sterotypes of heros - and real/relatable ones at that. Historically - when it comes to what happened in the West/Southern culture with violence and gun-slingers who were people of color ( more shared here or here ) - you'll not hear a lot of discussion on the subject.

Concerning the issue, for anyone interested in seeing the history of blacks in similar western films like Django, one can go to the following:



In addition to that, there's Separate Cinema: Harlem Goes West - as well as Cinemas of the Black Diaspora: Diversity, Dependence, and Oppositionality - Google Books

Also, for others...

The Black Cowboy - YouTube

Additionally, there's an excellent book on the subject I HIGHLY enjoyed going through - one that really helps to bring home the point on how much history has been lost when it comes to Blacks and the Western Frontier. It's entitled "Black, Red, and Deadly" by Art T. Burton
""]
 
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Gxg (G²);66355450 said:
Concerning the issue, for anyone interested in seeing the history of blacks in similar western films like Django, one can go to the following:



Also, for others...

The Black Cowboy - YouTube

Additionally, there's an excellent book on the subject I HIGHLY enjoyed going through - one that really helps to bring home the point on how much history has been lost when it comes to Blacks and the Western Frontier. It's entitled "Black, Red, and Deadly" by Art T. Burton
""]

Thanks for the information. Always a plethora of sources from you. :wave::wave:
 
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Thanks for the information. Always a plethora of sources from you. :wave::wave:
Glad that it came in handy - and on the issue, if you have any resources which you feel would be on point for the OP, I'd greatly appreciate it :)

Concerning the Golden Circle (the secret society known as the Knights of the Golden Circle that sought to establish a slave empire spanning the southern United States, Mexico, Cuba, and the West Indies), there were some excellent resources I came across recently that I appreciated:

 
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Always a plethora of sources from you. :wave::wave:
Came across this recently and was very much glad for what it broke down in relation to the Civil War - as seen here:


As said there:

The Lincoln administration struggled with the idea of authorizing the recruitment of Black troops, concerned that such a move would spark the border states to secede. On July 17, 1862, Congress passed the Second Confiscation and Militia Act, freeing the enslaved who had plantation owners in the Confederate Army. Two days later, slavery was abolished in the territories of the United States. The National Archives breaks down how enslaved Africans impacted the Civil War.


CWTIVol46No8-600x799.jpg

Robert E. Lee Made Fighting Possible
Gen. Robert E. Lee was a beloved figure in the South, and it took him, through virtually pleading, to convince the Confederate Congress to begin enlisting Black soldiers. The legislation required the consent of the plantation owner and would confer the rights of a freeman after the war, says history.net. Yet a month after the order came out, Virginia was able to muster no more than 50 enlistees.

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Many Black Men Served
About 179,000 Black men (10 percent of the Union Army) served as soldiers in the U.S. Army and another 19,000 served in the Navy. Black soldiers’ impact was varied, according to civilwar.org. They not only fought but served in artillery and infantry and performed all noncombat support functions that sustain an army, as well. And there were nearly 80 Black commissioned officers.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't think slavery would last long even if the South won... I know that some slaves were learning to read at the time, and education=freedom.
As it turns out, in the South, there was already a lot of battles in the South that would have made it difficult for the Confederacy to stand strong. Came across some amazing historical stories on the subject concerning historical figures in the Confederacy who were fighting, as it concerns Newton Knight, a poor farmer who seceded from the Confederacy to establish his own independent state in Jones County, Mississippi:
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