Priest accused of causing "mental conflict" by preaching Catholic doctrine; gay...

Fantine

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Pastoral, as in like a Pastor?
he was trying to lead a lost sheep away from something that is harmful

sin is harmful to the human person in a core and fundamental way
sin harms the soul
is not the purpose of counselling to facilitate healing? or lead people on a healthier life path?
neither healing or a healthy life path are possible while committing unnatural acts

Repelling and alienating people are not effective ways to "facilitate healing."

When I look at people who are involved with ministry, it often seems as if those who think they can facilitate healing by repelling and alienating people are often overly controlling and self-righteous.

I think that they make themselves feel better by driving people away by reading them the riot act--they've done their officious duty. They've stood up for truth, justice and the narrow-gate-to-heaven way. They can play the martyr, even, because their technique didn't work.

Rather than learn what is more effective, they can pat themselves on the back (which feeds into their own addiction to be the voices of morality).
 
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KatherineS

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Pastoral, as in like a Pastor?
he was trying to lead a lost sheep away from something that is harmful

...is not the purpose of counselling to facilitate healing? or lead people on a healthier life path?

Yes, well obviously the chaplain failed in being pastoral.
 
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Needing_Grace

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Pastoral, as in like a Pastor?
he was trying to lead a lost sheep away from something that is harmful

sin is harmful to the human person in a core and fundamental way
sin harms the soul
is not the purpose of counselling to facilitate healing? or lead people on a healthier life path?
neither healing or a healthy life path are possible while committing unnatural acts

Pastoral as in pastoral. Present the truth in a way that gives them the law's requirements and the Gospel's provisions. Present the truth in a way that makes a specific issue (homosexuality) a manifestation of the much larger issue that affects everyone (concupiscence), nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't make anyone any different than anyone else (except in vocation...no marriage, no religious vocation...there's no way to soften the blow of that one). Present the truth that it's the way one must struggle with original sin in their own way. Present the truth at that it stinks, yes, but it stinks for everyone. Learn to live with your own stink because everyone else's stink is worse for you. Tell the story about the guy who Jesus offered to give another cross...any one he wanted...and so he went in to a room full of crosses of all sizes...some seemed like Redwoods...and he went straight for the smallest, lightest looking cross in the room only to be told it was the one he's been carrying all along...

Using the heady language of the CCC may be giving the "absolute truth" but the language is off-putting for people not well versed in the philosophical tradition Catholicism is steeped in.

BTW, being the snot I am, I would answer the cross story by saying, I'd asked to weigh a few first, sometimes the larger ones look scary bad but they're like carrying Styrofoam while the smaller ones that look easy can seem to be made of neutron star material.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Sounds like you are knocking the Apostles... who didnt apologize, cajole, conform, or beg folks to follow them.
Priests arent here to spread the good feelings so much as stand up for truth. Nothing more or less.
According to the priest who died and returned - who would have been judged to hell - he was doing more of the touchy feely stuff to 'bring ppl back each week - so they gave money...'
But - Jesus wasnt very touchy feely about the the way he was teaching...sans the important teachings about hell, guilt and sin.

'God is love, God is sunshine, God will forgive you....' yadda yadda.

Ok, so God is love, He forgives - but He also told folks who were sinners - to go and sin No More.'
He wasnt requesting, He wasnt begging, He was stating to sin no more.

The hard dose of reality is this - we wont be forgiven by excusing our behavior - something the priest said at judgment - you give no rebuttals, no excuses - you stand judged - period.

Its not a trial with a jury where you speak your mind - it's done.
Folks who reject the message do it for one reason - they simply Do Not Like The Message - and unless or until they 'want' God enough to give up their sins - they are not going to listen to it or abide by it.

Quite frankly, its not about the employment of the message - its always going to 'BE' the message. Its not easy - its not agreeable - and its unwanted.

The priest has nothing to do with it - the world hates what Jesus taught and wants - it did in His time - it still does.

I have said many times in this forum - You must make the choice between what this world offers [including the temporary consolations and group think acceptance of certain behaviors considered sin before the Great judge - or you accept His teachings and step down from promoting them, excusing them or accepting them.

It is in fact - black and white.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Pastoral as in pastoral. Present the truth in a way that gives them the law's requirements and the Gospel's provisions. Present the truth in a way that makes a specific issue (homosexuality) a manifestation of the much larger issue that affects everyone (concupiscence), nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't make anyone any different than anyone else (except in vocation...no marriage, no religious vocation...there's no way to soften the blow of that one). Present the truth that it's the way one must struggle with original sin in their own way. Present the truth at that it stinks, yes, but it stinks for everyone. Learn to live with your own stink because everyone else's stink is worse for you. Tell the story about the guy who Jesus offered to give another cross...any one he wanted...and so he went in to a room full of crosses of all sizes...some seemed like Redwoods...and he went straight for the smallest, lightest looking cross in the room only to be told it was the one he's been carrying all along...

Using the heady language of the CCC may be giving the "absolute truth" but the language is off-putting for people not well versed in the philosophical tradition Catholicism is steeped in.

BTW, being the snot I am, I would answer the cross story by saying, I'd asked to weigh a few first, sometimes the larger ones look scary bad but they're like carrying Styrofoam while the smaller ones that look easy can seem to be made of neutron star material.
You have to walk in someone's shoes to say if it is easy or not.

There are many crosses and depending on the person who is made to carry their cross whether it is easy or not - is depending on their willingness to accept grace from God.

If someone carries a chip on their shoulders - its makes it very difficult. If they willingly try and look to God - the Lord grants them strength that is heroic..

This includes quadriplegics, disabled, blind, deaf - etc etc etc.

No one can say theirs is the heaviest - only One can say They had the heaviest - which was Christ Who carried His for all sins.
 
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Needing_Grace

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Sounds like you are knocking the Apostles... who didnt apologize, cajole, conform, or beg folks to follow them.
Priests arent here to spread the good feelings so much as stand up for truth. Nothing more or less.
According to the priest who died and returned - who would have been judged to hell - he was doing more of the touchy feely stuff to 'bring ppl back each week - so they gave money...'
But - Jesus wasnt very touchy feely about the the way he was teaching...sans the important teachings about hell, guilt and sin.

'God is love, God is sunshine, God will forgive you....' yadda yadda.

Ok, so God is love, He forgives - but He also told folks who were sinners - to go and sin No More.'
He wasnt requesting, He wasnt begging, He was stating to sin no more.

The hard dose of reality is this - we wont be forgiven by excusing our behavior - something the priest said at judgment - you give no rebuttals, no excuses - you stand judged - period.

Its not a trial with a jury where you speak your mind - it's done.
Folks who reject the message do it for one reason - they simply Do Not Like The Message - and unless or until they 'want' God enough to give up their sins - they are not going to listen to it or abide by it.

Quite frankly, its not about the employment of the message - its always going to 'BE' the message. Its not easy - its not agreeable - and its unwanted.

The priest has nothing to do with it - the world hates what Jesus taught and wants - it did in His time - it still does.

I have said many times in this forum - You must make the choice between what this world offers [including the temporary consolations and group think acceptance of certain behaviors considered sin before the Great judge - or you accept His teachings and step down from promoting them, excusing them or accepting them.

It is in fact - black and white.

Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.

Get it yet? You demand Law ONLY. You imply that I demand Gospel only.

I say give BOTH. Preach the law, correctly and completely, which means not singling out homosexuality as the über sin but as a manifestation of the thing called sin, until the conscience is terrorized, but immediately and without delay, present the saving good news of Jesus' provision for our sin. To do otherwise leads to despair and people going away mad (or sad) and without the whole truth of what they need to know.

But then again, I don't read a similar soteriology to what I understand. Yours seems to be salvation solely on our own efforts and our works, like slaves working to earn the affections of their angry master. I see a loving Father who loves the sinner and provides for every need, including what is needed for salvation (which doesn't deny the necessity of cooperation, but salvation is not earned, it's 100% gift).
 
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Michie

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Washington D.C., Apr 5, 2013 / 06:10 pm (CNA/EWTN News).-
Students and parishioners are speaking up for a Catholic priest after two gay students at George Washington University said they want him removed for supporting the Church's stance on homosexual behavior.

“I have never seen Fr. Greg be less than compassionate to any student on an issue of sexuality,” Catholic author and speaker Dawn Eden told CNA April 5. “He’s been instrumental in helping them to find healing in Christ.”

Eden, who is a parishioner at Saint Stephen Martyr Parish where Fr. Schaffer serves as chaplain to the GWU Newman Center, said participation in Catholic life “shot up exponentially” since his arrival in 2009.

These comments come in the wake of an effort by two former Newman Center members seeking to force Fr. Schaffer off campus at the D.C. university, saying that they felt alienated by his defense of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality.

Seniors Damian Legacy and Blake Bergen, both of whom are gay, want Fr. Schaffer removed because he taught that homosexual behavior is immoral, consistent with the teaching of the Catholic faith.

The students said that the priest had told individuals who came to him for counseling that if they experience same-sex attraction, they should remain celibate.

Asserting that this was unacceptable anti-gay behavior, the two gay students have launched a campaign to force Fr. Schaffer off the campus. According to the campus newspaper, they have filed a formal complaint with the administration and are holding a vigil outside the Newman Center until the priest is removed.

Legacy, who is now a priest in the schismatic Old Catholic Church, submitted a report to the administration outlining a program used by other schools to vet religious leaders before bringing them to the campus and plans on asking the Student Association to defund the Catholic student outreach center which reportedly received $10,000 last year.

Current and past Newman Center students have voiced their support of the priest on a blog called, “The Chaplain I Know.” They argued that it was ridiculous to try to penalize a Catholic priest for upholding Catholic teaching and offered testimonies on Fr. Schaffer’s character, calling him “self-sacrificing,” “encouraging” and instrumental in their conversions back to the Catholic faith.

“The kindness and unconditional affection he expressed was what gave me the strength to realize that I was loved despite my mistakes,” one contributor wrote.

If Catholics are looking for “someone to rally behind” in order to tell the culture where they stand, Eden said, Fr. Schaffer is “a good and holy priest” worthy of such support.
“We need to stand up for a Catholic priest who is true to his vocation and who is promoting and defending the Gospel for the good of souls,” she added.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue has called Legacy and Bergen’s campaign a “serious civil issue” that should be the subject of a “campus wide discussion on the meaning of the First Amendment.”
Catholics rally behind embattled chaplain at George Washington University...
 
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WarriorAngel

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Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.
Law AND Gospel.

Get it yet? You demand Law ONLY. You imply that I demand Gospel only.

I say give BOTH. Preach the law, correctly and completely, which means not singling out homosexuality as the über sin but as a manifestation of the thing called sin, until the conscience is terrorized, but immediately and without delay, present the saving good news of Jesus' provision for our sin. To do otherwise leads to despair and people going away mad (or sad) and without the whole truth of what they need to know.

But then again, I don't read a similar soteriology to what I understand. Yours seems to be salvation solely on our own efforts and our works, like slaves working to earn the affections of their angry master. I see a loving Father who loves the sinner and provides for every need, including what is needed for salvation (which doesn't deny the necessity of cooperation, but salvation is not earned, it's 100% gift).
I can tell you havent read anything i wrote.

The priest was judged to hell for not speaking enough about hell.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Thanks Michie...

“I have never seen Fr. Greg be less than compassionate to any student on an issue of sexuality,” Catholic author and speaker Dawn Eden told CNA April 5. “He’s been instrumental in helping them to find healing in Christ.”

As i said - it is not the way someone preaches - it is 'if' the recipient 'wants' to receive it. Most dont want or like it. Therefore - they choose the world.
 
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Michie

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Thanks Michie...



As i said - it is not the way someone preaches - it is 'if' the recipient 'wants' to receive it. Most dont want or like it. Therefore - they choose the world.
I can't believe the projecting & judging going on here as if some were actually privy to this priest's words & actions.

This priest is not going to have anything to worry about.
 
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Needing_Grace

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I can tell you havent read anything i wrote.

The priest was judged to hell for not speaking enough about hell.

So, he was about nether the law's condemnation nor the Gospel's salvation (you really can't separate the two in Christianity).

Could I also say that you've not read my post?

You need to give demands of God's Law, full force and without adjectives, which we all violate. We all deserve hell, without exception. This is the message of the law's condemnation of sinners that cannot go unsaid because unless you've done this, the Gospel's good news of salvation by grace through faith and hope in Christ with its resulting charity will mean NOTHING (the three Theological Virtues altogether).

It's a complete message, not half a message.

So, of course this priest would have gone to hell. He was unfaithful in his ministry and his vocation.

I'm certain that hellfire and brimstone preachers that fail to present the saving message of Christ's Gospel to their charges will also find themselves in a similar bind.
 
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Fantine

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Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 1995, recognizes that, due to what we have learned about the psychology and biochemistry of the human mind, beginning with the work of Freud and Jung in the early twentieth century, it is difficult of not impossible to determine the severity of individual sins.

While there may be a textbook definition of sin (the rule book this "chaplain" obviously goes by) there is no way that any individual can see the situation as God sees it.
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

And so perhaps the chaplain's "one size fits all blanket condemnations" do not take into account the individual circumstances of the persons being counseled.

I know I've brought up this case before. A lady I know was widowed young and remarried a divorced Baptist who had no interest in wading through reams of Catholic red tape to get married. She had a third child with him and they were together more than thirty years (during which time the husband, about 15 years older than his wife, became very ill...) She made the mistake of telling a priest who was somewhat like this college chaplain her situation. He wouldn't give her Communion anymore. She left the parish and went to a different one, with a younger priest with a different approach. Three years later her husband became Catholic and now they all go to church together.

Perhaps some of you think that the first priest's counsel was right....

Leave a husband who is elderly and sick after he married you as a young widow, helped you raise your children from your first marriage, gave you another child, and was faithful to you for thirty years....

Anyone who thinks that's what God would advocate has a really warped view of God.

The wiser priest recognized that there were some emotional wounds that needed healing, and perhaps a lack of understanding on the part of the husband.

No, this has nothing to do with SSA, but the advisability of such an approach surely does.
 
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mark46

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Thank you for your comments.

It seems that many think of the priest as policeman and a canonical lawyer, ready to explain and enforce the Law of God.

Of course, we are ALL sinners and fall short of the glory of God. We ALL need salvation. A priest has many functions. Obviously his sacramental role is critical. His PASTORAL role is also crucial.

It is indeed the priest's role to be a teacher. HOWEVER, there is a matter of priorities. The issue of same sex attraction is hardly one of the most important issues to address from the pulpit.

Many Christians consider Catholics to be too focused on the Law and not enough on the gospel, also that Catholics are legalistic.

Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church, published in 1995, recognizes that, due to what we have learned about the psychology and biochemistry of the human mind, beginning with the work of Freud and Jung in the early twentieth century, it is difficult of not impossible to determine the severity of individual sins.

While there may be a textbook definition of sin (the rule book this "chaplain" obviously goes by) there is no way that any individual can see the situation as God sees it.


And so perhaps the chaplain's "one size fits all blanket condemnations" do not take into account the individual circumstances of the persons being counseled.

I know I've brought up this case before. A lady I know was widowed young and remarried a divorced Baptist who had no interest in wading through reams of Catholic red tape to get married. She had a third child with him and they were together more than thirty years (during which time the husband, about 15 years older than his wife, became very ill...) She made the mistake of telling a priest who was somewhat like this college chaplain her situation. He wouldn't give her Communion anymore. She left the parish and went to a different one, with a younger priest with a different approach. Three years later her husband became Catholic and now they all go to church together.

Perhaps some of you think that the first priest's counsel was right....

Leave a husband who is elderly and sick after he married you as a young widow, helped you raise your children from your first marriage, gave you another child, and was faithful to you for thirty years....

Anyone who thinks that's what God would advocate has a really warped view of God.

The wiser priest recognized that there were some emotional wounds that needed healing, and perhaps a lack of understanding on the part of the husband.

No, this has nothing to do with SSA, but the advisability of such an approach surely does.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I'm certainly not trying to. Even being a "Catholic chaplain" is not the same as being a parish priest. The expectations of a chaplain are usually much more open, pastoral and counselling oriented.


The expectations between a parish priest and a school chaplain, are no different.

In fact, the Catholic Chaplain probably also works as an associate at a local parish as well as being a chaplain a the university. In my former parish, the associate was the chaplain at the local college. Another was the chaplain for the city police department.

In both cases, he doesn't compromise Catholic teaching on abortion and sexual promiscuity. I'm sure he tells heterosexuals that sex outside of marriage is also sinful, but we don't see them protesting to have him removed over it.

They know it's a sin. The two gay males in the OP article, deny that it's sinful and resent being told by the priest.

Jim
 
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ThePilgrim

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Even in that context he might need to separate roles. The context may need him to inform the student about the Catholic Church's criteria for priesthood while keeping a distance from commenting on the homosexuality himself. Or to refer the student to another priest who is not a chaplain for advice on vocation.
That's silly. He's a Catholic chaplain and he should never have to avoid saying what the Catholic Church teaches on a given issue. If the student wasn't Catholic, and had different beliefs, he could make clear that he was telling him the Catholic perspective, and that the student's own Church might say something different, for the sake of clarity, but something is either true or false and he's either a Catholic chaplain or he isn't.

In Christ,
Fr. John
 
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ThePilgrim

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Being a chaplain in a public community - even where there are other faith chaplains - is still different from being a parish priest.
He is still bound to teach what he believes to be true. Of course, he should do it pastorally, but a chaplain in a public setting isn't a chaplain of nothing in particular and a preacher of nihilism. He is bound to be faithful to the truth and to his vocation, even in a public setting.
 
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ThePilgrim

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Sheesh! The priest didn't stand outside the Newman Center with a megaphone shouting, "Repent, sinners!" when these young men walked past.

He didn't go to their cars in the parking lot and put rainbow decals with the "No" line running diagonally through them.

If his behavior constituted harassment, then they would have a case. Supporting the principles of his faith does not constitute harassment--and no one was forcing the young men to listen to him.
Exactly! That distinction should be common sense.
 
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ThePilgrim

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I'm certainly not trying to. Even being a "Catholic chaplain" is not the same as being a parish priest. The expectations of a chaplain are usually much more open, pastoral and counselling oriented.
But there's no such thing as generic pastoral care or generic counseling. What a pastor, chaplain, or counselor says, how he counsels, and what sort of care he gives is always going to be informed by and based on a particular set of beliefs, values, and a particular world view.
 
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