What if a gay family comes to the Church?

[gracefullamb]

.

 

[QueSi]

Yes. And if they do not repent, they are not "shunned" from the community. They only do not participate in the Eucharist, etc.

So, could a married homosexual couple repent for having sex, and then be members just like heterosexual couples who might commit sins and repent?

 

[InnerPhyre]

I seriously doubt they would be turned away. I've never personally been to an Orthodox Church that turned anyone away. Why would you do that? I imagine the priest would probably call his bishop for advice on how to handle the matter discreetly and with great care. So long as the couple was engaging in sexual relations with each other, they would not be able to receive the sacraments, but if they were willing to do their best to live as brothers, then that might be another matter. I hesitate to go any further with this kind of speculation since I'm not a priest and definitely not a bishop.

 

[Cappadocious]

So, could a married homosexual couple repent for having sex, and then be members just like heterosexual couples who might commit sins and repent?

Anyone can repent.

 

[QueSi]

Anyone can repent.

Great, so a homosexual couple would be treated just as any other relationship in your church, sounds like a real Christian church. Good to hear.

 

[tapi]

It's up the priest, or the bishop, should he be consulted. But I believe that they should be allowed to be a part of the parish regardless of wheter or not they are able stop their sexual activity right away (even though the parents most likely could not receive the Holy Communion).

The Church is a spiritual hospital and we cannot simply turn away people who come to seek Christ there. That would be a grievous sin, even if we (and we do) view homosexuality as a distortion of human sexuality as created by God.

However, if the adults are committed in their faith, they should in time seriously start to consider if it would be at least possible to have this relationship without the sexual component. I do think it would be unrealistic and too harsh to demand them to stop living together as a criteria for joining the community – should they come with time come to such a decision by God's will, is another thing.

I also agree that requesting them to put their children for adoption is not a course of action that would likely benefit anybody. It would likely cause deep spiritual and mental pain for the adults, and have severe and drastically negative effects on the childrens' mental development.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Your answer is a bit surprising to me. I figured it'd be in the best interest of all parties, especially the children, to remain in a single home with a family. No sex between the same-sex parents, and perhaps move to two separate bedrooms, but keep the family intact. Their love could evolve from a sexual relationship to that of true brotherly love and affection while raising their children in the Faith.

It would all depend on their honest ability to move from a sexual relationship to a brotherly love relationship. If the priest wasn't convinced they could, or if they themselves weren't convinced they could, for the good of their souls it would be better for one to move out.

And some may disagree with me, but we can't act as though homosexuality is a sin without normally attached views. If I went to a parish and I heard they had an openly gay couple attending, well, I'm sure it reflects badly on my ability to refrain from judging, but in American Christian culture having such a couple generally means that parish has abandoned other Christian norms. I wish it wasn't so and homosexuality was, in reality, just another sin, but there's a reason why it was suggested in this thread that this couple go seek out Episcopalians.

If any priest would suggest put the children back up for adoption, which means to take the only parents they have ever known away from them, and destroy their home... that is just cruel, and not Christ-like or loving at all. Surely Jesus would not treat those children so unjustly.

Well I didn't say it was likely, but I do think some would, because many believe that children do best in a home with a mother and a father. I don't think it's likely though, because we wouldn't make a widower give up his children.

 

[InnerPhyre]

The Church as a spiritual hospital and we cannot simply turn away people who come to seek Christ there.

This is what should be lighting up in neon. To turn away homosexuals from the Church would be like a hospital telling a patient "You're too sick for us to treat...just go home and die." Even if a hospital would do this, the Divine Physician would not. He desires the salvation of all mankind because of His never-ending love for us.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Who on Earth would make such a suggestion!?

it was suggested in this thread that this couple go seek out Episcopalians.

 

[rusmeister]

I think there are already a lot of gay people who get married, have children and are relatively normal families, and Orthodox.

You need to be clear on what "married" means and to whom.

 

[HalupkiMonster]

This is a very sticky issue, to say the least.

To the satisfaction of some and dismay of many, this is a situation that many Orthodox parishes are faced with. I know of two married women, one of which have adopted several children, who are communing members in the Orthodox Church. Mind you, these women were born into the Orthodox faith. Someone coming to the Church in this type of relationship would be received differently (which doesn't make sense, but it's the way of the world.)

This also depends on the parish priest. There are priests who are staunchly opposed to homosexuality, even those who have unfounded prejudices. There are also Orthodox priests who advocate LGBT rights and such. Both of these priests and their bishops would handle this differently. They're only men, after all.

 

[rusmeister]

I am not trying to dismiss your question, but perhaps you really might want to ask a priest about this. I do not usually respond so generally but this is something we will probably just be grasping at.

I don't think it's so hard as all that.

No one who wishes to inquire into the Orthodox faith will be turned away. All will be welcomed to learn, to listen, and to discover.

But admittance into the Church as a MEMBER is VERY conditional. When people with understandings opposed to ours on what marriage and the family is come into a church, they are going to discover that they cannot remain as they are. Only those willing to submit and adapt to our understandings, the teachings (dogmas) and practices of the Church may become catechumens or Orthodox members and commune with us. This will be very hard for such people. If they have no intention of changing, they may attend services forever, but never partake of the Eucharist. It all depends on whether they are willing to accept the Truth about themselves and do something about it or not. Cappadocious is right that we do not "shun" people, though.

So what Joseph said is quite true - IF they accept the conditions. If they don't, they are welcome to come and watch, to sit at coffee hour, etc, but not to promote or demand that we accept their views as normal or acceptable. As to children, that IS thornier, but the first step is acknowledging that they are not parents, but guardians. From there, whether they can continue to live together or not, raise the children or not, depends on individual response.

And (to QueSi) yes, if the "homosexual" couple (who suffer from same-sex attraction) REFRAIN from indulging that passion, then they can be like the rest of us. We ALL must refrain from some passion or other.

(to Helga) Orthodox hierarchs have expressed Orthodox teaching, but always with the full support of the laity, the people. It would be a serious error to suggest that the teaching was imposed "from the top" or that it has been in error and that movements now to "correct the error" are legitimate. (Edit add - not that you intend that; but it could be inferred from the way you put it.)

 

[rusmeister]

This is a very sticky issue, to say the least.

To the satisfaction of some and dismay of many, this is a situation that many Orthodox parishes are faced with. I know of two married women, one of which have adopted several children, who are communing members in the Orthodox Church. Mind you, these women were born into the Orthodox faith. Someone coming to the Church in this type of relationship would be received differently (which doesn't make sense, but it's the way of the world.)

This also depends on the parish priest. There are priests who are staunchly opposed to homosexuality, even those who have unfounded prejudices. There are also Orthodox priests who advocate LGBT rights and such. Both of these priests and their bishops would handle this differently. They're only men, after all.

Sorry, AA, Orthodox teaching on sex, marriage and the family is not a function of the modern opinions of individual priests ( thank God!) but of the collective witness of the Church throughout history. So no, it is not nearly as chaotic or sticky as you imagine. There is no room for debate on the legitimacy of same-sex relations within the Orthodox Church. What people may politically advocate OUTSIDE the Church might be debated, but here we are talking about the inside, not the outside.

 

[HalupkiMonster]

Sorry, AA, Orthodox teaching on sex, marriage and the family is not a function of the modern opinions of individual priests ( thank God!) but of the collective witness of the Church throughout history. So no, it is not nearly as chaotic or sticky as you imagine. There is no room for debate on the legitimacy of same-sex relations within the Orthodox Church. What people may politically advocate OUTSIDE the Church might be debated, but here we are talking about the inside, not the outside.

I understand that, I was just pointing out that some congregations would be more welcoming to people in same sex relationships than others. The Church's convictions on such activities wouldn't change, of course.

 

[Wesley1982]

So let's fast forward a decade or two. There's a legally "married" homosexual couple, and they have two children together. A loving, relatively normal family. Let's say one partner, or both partners, are suddenly drawn to the Holy Orthodox Church. How would this be handled? I know it'd take a lot of personal pastoral care, but just for discussion, how would the Church handle this?

There would an actual family, with children, a home, etc. and they are legally married in the eyes of the government (but not the Church, of course). But yet they seek the fullness of the Faith, and are strongly convicted to join Orthodoxy.

What would happen? I know they wouldn't be turned away. Surely the Church wouldn't seek to break up the family. Would they still be able to be a family and the two homosexual parents refrain from sex over time, assuming they were both committed to converting? Etc.

The priest handles that.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Justin,

I had a long talk with my priest about this a few weeks ago. He said that everyone, regardless of their state of life, is welcome in the Church. I was specifically asking about transgendered people (in addition to gays/lesbians) and he said they should come and wear whatever they want. If they are sincere about becoming members of the Church, they have to understand that we are ROCOR and in his words "one of the most traditional forms of Christianity in the world." So, if they want to join ROCOR, that means adopting many traditional ways including traditional dress. Men dress like men, women dress like women and one's biological sex determines that, not how they feel.

In regard to gays and lesbians who have families, there are obligations that have to be fulfilled. If a child sees two women as her parents, she shouldnt be punished by losing one of her parents. But gential expressions of love between people of the same sex cannot be a part of an Orthodox life. Sure, a gay couple can attend church together, go to school plays together, etc. But romance and sexual activity have to stop. If they stumble into sin, confess and repent.

God is merciful and full of loving kindness.

M.

 

[choirfiend]

We have married saints who decided to live as brother and sister. And sometiems they lived apart, sometimes they lived together. With Christ, great things are possible.

I imagine they would be received and treated as individuals, instead of as "gays." Which means there's no set requirements. It would be done with great pastoral care in the interest of all of the party's eternal salvation.

 

[GenetoJean]

Justin,

I had a long talk with my priest about this a few weeks ago. He said that everyone, regardless of their state of life, is welcome in the Church. I was specifically asking about transgendered people (in addition to gays/lesbians) and he said they should come and wear whatever they want. If they are sincere about becoming members of the Church, they have to understand that we are ROCOR and in his words "one of the most traditional forms of Christianity in the world." So, if they want to join ROCOR, that means adopting many traditional ways including traditional dress. Men dress like men, women dress like women and one's biological sex determines that, not how they feel.

In regard to gays and lesbians who have families, there are obligations that have to be fulfilled. If a child sees two women as her parents, she shouldnt be punished by losing one of her parents. But gential expressions of love between people of the same sex cannot be a part of an Orthodox life. Sure, a gay couple can attend church together, go to school plays together, etc. But romance and sexual activity have to stop. If they stumble into sin, confess and repent.

God is merciful and full of loving kindness.

M.

It is nice to know, I could come to your church and enjoy some friendship.

 

[Damaris]

I know of two married women, one of which have adopted several children, who are communing members in the Orthodox Church. Mind you, these women were born into the Orthodox faith. Someone coming to the Church in this type of relationship would be received differently (which doesn't make sense, but it's the way of the world.)

Whether one is born into or received later into the faith should not make that much of a difference. If anything, it's usually converts who get any accommodation because they did not know any better. Women are not permitted to present themselves as "married" to other women (or men to other men). A priest who puts up with such behavior is not doing anyone any favors.

 

[HalupkiMonster]

genital expressions of love between people of the same sex cannot be a part of an Orthodox life. Sure, a gay couple can attend church together, go to school plays together, etc. But romance and sexual activity have to stop. If they stumble into sin, confess and repent.

God is merciful and full of loving kindness.

I converted to Christianity when I was 14. I'm now going on 19. Coming to terms with my sexual orientation and what I thought the Church's teachings were regarding it was difficult, and caused me to defect from Holy Orthodoxy for a long while.

It took me a long time to realize that Christ wasn't this feel good hippie people make him out to be. He was about peace and love, but through His perfect will. The Church calls everyone to reject sin, not just certain people. To truly be a Christian is to be a sinner who repents and repents. No one has any hope of being perfect without Christ (which is what I took so long to realize.)