Pope of Rome vs Historic Protestants

[jamesonofthunder]

Still waiting on clarification of whether the year day applies to the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4. And if not, then why not.

Tall73,

I promised you I would get back to your question.

Could you be more specific and I will pray and find the right answer.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

E.W. and J.S. would have made a great couple

.

Joseph Smith was a false Prophet. He made claims that contradicted scripture. Nothing Mrs White claimed contradicted scripture.

"If they speak not according to THIS word, there is NO light in them"

 

[Erose]

Do you deny the quotes taken directly from the Catholic Catechism? You throw out one quote from Jesus, that is not related to indulgences. The selling of the indulgences took money away from the poor that then was given the Church of Rome to enrich it even more.

Those poor and whoever else where giving Alms. We're there abuses occurring at that time you betcha. It seems wherever we human beings are there is going to be some who take advantage of the situation. That is the human condition right now.

But a few things here though. Indulgences I.e. doing good works such as giving to the poor, helping someone convert to the faith, helping anyone in need, paying tithes for the upkeep of your Church, donating money for the building of a Church these all possess some merit to them. Why because one begins to realize that those gifts you are giving are really not yours in the first place. They belong to Christ first and that is how we are to view them.

The passage I referenced has everything to do with indulgences. Why? Because for us to be perfect we have to understand we have nothing without Christ. Nothing. He is the only possession we should be striving for. To be like Christ. Everything else we have is there to help us in that process.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Those poor and whoever else where giving Alms. We're there abuses occurring at that time you betcha. It seems wherever we human beings are there is going to be some who take advantage of the situation. That is the human condition right now.

But a few things here though. Indulgences I.e. doing good works such as giving to the poor, helping someone convert to the faith, helping anyone in need, paying tithes for the upkeep of your Church, donating money for the building of a Church these all possess some merit to them. Why because one begins to realize that those gifts you are giving are really not yours in the first place. They belong to Christ first and that is how we are to view them.

The passage I referenced has everything to do with indulgences. Why? Because for us to be perfect we have to understand we have nothing without Christ. Nothing. He is the only possession we should be striving for. To be like Christ. Everything else we have is there to help us in that process.

OH NOOOOOO!

You're equating Tithe with indulgences? You didn't happen to go to school at Georgetown did you? How about Loyola college?

Silly me, you wouldn't admit it if you did.

 

[Erose]

yeah well from reading just briefly on it since you raised the point it does not appear that all agree He was not born vaginally per se, but just that she was preserved from pain or the usual impact of such on the body.

Perhaps others could clarify.

Some Catholics do appear to argue a more mystical approach.

But there doesn't appear to be anything spelled out on that aspect.

On the other hand, again, do Catholics say Jesus did not come in the flesh?

Even if they posit that Jesus was born through some other channel, have they said he was something other than in the flesh?

For Catholics the doctrine of Mary's ever-virginity is quite simple. Before she gave birth to Christ she was a virgin. She did not loose her virginity during birth. And she retained Her virginity forever. It is as simple as that. These are mysteries no doubt, since the first two cannot be explained physically, nor does the Church claim to explain them physically. Rather she says they are mysteries, and with all mysteries there is always speculation.

 

[Erose]

A delivery that leaves the hymen completely intact— that is the stuff of miracle for sure.
In early texts though, and early arguments, what gnostics were arguing against with these textswas the flesh of God.

Flesh is evil in gnostic theology.

Ever-virgin is a useful theological argument against the flesh of Jesus. For those of us who believe in Jesus in the flesh, which is everyone here in this section of the forum, Ever-Virgin, including bloodless, painless delivery without tearing the hymen, is a miracle with no theological reason behind it.

One has to look outside of the Christian belief system, to the gnostic, to understand the kind of theological import that that kind of belief originally had.

The teaching of Mary's ever-virginity did not come from Gnostics. Why because in their view point Mary could never have been truly pregnant with Jesus anyway. All of it was a illusion and nothing more.

 

[BlackSepulcher]

Joseph Smith was a false Prophet. He made claims that contradicted scripture. Nothing Mrs White claimed contradicted scripture.

"If they speak not according to THIS word, there is NO light in them"

Nothing the Church teaches contradicts Scripture. The Church's central dogma that rests between Tradition, Scripture, and Papacy is that they do not contradict each other. This is a very real and upheld standard of Roman Catholicism, which is why the Church has always been unconcerned about fundamentalist claims against them.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Have you heard of your own church's official teaching of what indulgences is?

Indulgence; Works and prayers allowing one to obtain the remission before God of the temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned. In the Apostolic Constitution The Doctrine of Indulgences of January 1, 1967 we read: "Holy Mother Church has then deemed it fitting, in order to give greater dignity and esteem to the use of indulgences, to introduce some innovations into her discipline of indulgences and has accordingly ordered the issuance of new norms."

READ IT!!!!!!

You claim to be a Catholic yet you do not know your own church's teachings!!!!

Can anyone tell me what Paul said about faith and works?

We cannot earn salvation or be forgiven for anything by doing one bit of work.

But when we are forgiven we are filled with Holy Spirit and He WORKS in us. This has nothing to do with paying the pope to get away from punishment for sins.

The new way of interpreting your own beliefs is like this.

You now believe you can be freed of the earthy punishment of a life of sin. They do not go as far as saying you can buy someone elses soul out of Purgatiry any more like they used to.

But according to your church's OFFICIAL stance on this issue, you can buy yourslef out of paying for the results of sin.

In other words, to show the complete ignorance of this false doctrine, it would be like saying "I can smoke cigarettes my whole life, and pay the pope so I do not get cancer"

Does this sound like a rational approach to God's word?

 

[Erose]

From Mariam's dictionary, first entry...

Vicar: one serving as a substitute or agent,

The pope will never be a substitute for Jesus.

I totally agree that it is our duty, and each of us are commanded to allow Christ to enter in us, through His word and Spirit, the hope of glory, but how is that manifested in the title of Pope?

This is really important, and you guys shouldn't be so flippant about it.

What did Jesus say about the rich? "It is harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."

How about if the richest man on earth who has accepted the title of Christ on earth, the title we are warned about in scripture? Vicarius Filei Dei; 'In place of the Son of God' which when you add this title up, the roman numerals equals 666.

Poor pope.

I guess you don't really understand that none of that is owned by the pope. Every papal election I have seen so far, I hear in the media that this cardinal or that cardinal are jockeying for position to become the next pope, and yet that isn't the case. No one wants to be pope, and if they even show that type of desire they are scratched off everyone's list. Why? Because the pope is no longer his own man. He just can't do whatever he wants. He in fact becomes to a certain extent a slave to the Catholic Church. He is always the pope. He owns very little of his own stuff. Sure everything is provided for him no doubt, but nothing is his.

Someone asked the last pope, Pope Benedict what he was feeling when he started to realize that his fellow cardinals were going to select him. He said quite frankly that he felt the gallintine drop. There might have been a few periods in time when it would have been to someone's advantage to be pope, especially during the dark times of the papacy, but early on it was a death sentence, and today it is 24/7 the pope.

I would not like to be him. I would prefer to be President of the USA over being the pope. At least the President can get time off.

 

[Erose]

Have you heard of your own church's official teaching of what indulgences is?

Indulgence; Works and prayers allowing one to obtain the remission before God of the temporal punishment due for sins already forgiven as far as their guilt is concerned. In the Apostolic Constitution The Doctrine of Indulgences of January 1, 1967 we read: "Holy Mother Church has then deemed it fitting, in order to give greater dignity and esteem to the use of indulgences, to introduce some innovations into her discipline of indulgences and has accordingly ordered the issuance of new norms."

READ IT!!!!!!

You claim to be a Catholic yet you do not know your own church's teachings!!!!

Can anyone tell me what Paul said about faith and works?

We cannot earn salvation or be forgiven for anything by doing one bit of work.

But when we are forgiven we are filled with Holy Spirit and He WORKS in us. This has nothing to do with paying the pope to get away from punishment for sins.

The new way of interpreting your own beliefs is like this.

You now believe you can be freed of the earthy punishment of a life of sin. They do not go as far as saying you can buy someone elses soul out of Purgatiry any more like they used to.

But according to your church's OFFICIAL stance on this issue, you can buy yourslef out of paying for the results of sin.

In other words, to show the complete ignorance of this false doctrine, it would be like saying "I can smoke cigarettes my whole life, and pay the pope so I do not get cancer"

Does this sound like a rational approach to God's word?

and what is wrong with that passage. You are making mountains out of molehills. All good works do make a certain reparation to the temporal punishment due to sin. I believe it whole heatedly and thank God for giving me such a grace. To be able to make up for the evil that I have done, I thank him greatly.

Can I ask you a simple question. In our modern judicial system are you against probation and community service as punishments?

 

[Erose]

OH NOOOOOO!

You're equating Tithe with indulgences? You didn't happen to go to school at Georgetown did you? How about Loyola college?

Silly me, you wouldn't admit it if you did.

Yes I am equating. We are called to give of ourselves monetary, good deeds, prayer to God, interceding for those in need, etc., etc. All of these acts are in a sense storing treasure in heaven just as Christ teaches us. But I think you have derailed this thread enough. Maybe you ought to start a new one.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

I guess you don't really understand that none of that is owned by the pope. Every papal election I have seen so far, I hear in the media that this cardinal or that cardinal are jockeying for position to become the next pope, and yet that isn't the case. No one wants to be pope, and if they even show that type of desire they are scratched off everyone's list. Why? Because the pope is no longer his own man. He just can't do whatever he wants. He in fact becomes to a certain extent a slave to the Catholic Church. He is always the pope. He owns very little of his own stuff. Sure everything is provided for him no doubt, but nothing is his.

Someone asked the last pope, Pope Benedict what he was feeling when he started to realize that his fellow cardinals were going to select him. He said quite frankly that he felt the gallintine drop. There might have been a few periods in time when it would have been to someone's advantage to be pope, especially during the dark times of the papacy, but early on it was a death sentence, and today it is 24/7 the pope.

I would not like to be him. I would prefer to be President of the USA over being the pope. At least the President can get time off.

OH MY GOODNESS!!!!

To hear the pope complain about the duties of being the pope is like hearing a rock star or movie star complain that he has no privacy anymore. Really? Are you gonna go there?

Poor pope, shame on the billion plus people for looking up to you in reverence. It must be so hard sitting on a pile of gold for the rest of your life never having to really work ever again. Where is my manners? To think of the horror of his station, it must be such a burden to be carried everywhere on a golden platform.

Looks pretty cozy to me.

My church would say this is what caused this decline in health. Exercise is good for a man. He wouldn't even climb ten steps any more.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Yes I am equating. We are called to give of ourselves monetary, good deeds, prayer to God, interceding for those in need, etc., etc. All of these acts are in a sense storing treasure in heaven just as Christ teaches us. But I think you have derailed this thread enough. Maybe you ought to start a new one.

Show me in scripture what you claim.

Where is the word 'indulgence' in scripture? My bible doesn't say the word except in condemnation.

Colossians 2:20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch 22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Your own doctrines condemn you.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

And the prayers you offer, having first to go to Mary have absolutely no value.

Mary is in the grave waiting for the resurrection not in heaven making intercession for you.

 

[Root of Jesse]

OH MY GOODNESS!!!!

To hear the pope complain about the duties of being the pope is like hearing a rock star or movie star complain that he has no privacy anymore. Really? Are you gonna go there?

Poor pope, shame on the billion plus people for looking up to you in reverence. It must be so hard sitting on a pile of gold for the rest of your life never having to really work ever again. Where is my manners? To think of the horror of his station, it must be such a burden to be carried everywhere on a golden platform.

Looks pretty cozy to me.

My church would say this is what caused this decline in health. Exercise is good for a man. He wouldn't even climb ten steps any more.

Where was it said that the Pope complained? What he said is that nobody wants to be pope. Truth is, anyone who wants to be Pope is not cut out for the job.

While he might not have to 'work' as you know it, he does work, in fact, does not get a day off. But you wouldn't know, would you? No priest owns much of anything. The Pope, while he may want for nothing, actually owns nothing, even gets buried in a simple wood box. Even when I wasn't Catholic, I respected the office of Pope.

You, on the other hand, don't seem to have an atom of humility. The Pope washes the feet of criminals, as Jesus did. You insult the Pope because he accepted the call of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Show me in scripture what you claim.

Where is the word 'indulgence' in scripture? My bible doesn't say the word except in condemnation.

Colossians 2:20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch 22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Your own doctrines condemn you.

Where's the word Bible, for that matter? And where does it say that, because a word isn't in the Bible, it's invalid as a concept?

 

[Root of Jesse]

And the prayers you offer, having first to go to Mary have absolutely no value.

Mary is in the grave waiting for the resurrection not in heaven making intercession for you.

Where does it say we must go to Mary first? And do you have proof Mary is in the grave? And even if she is, how does this preclude her being in heaven?

 

[Erose]

OH MY GOODNESS!!!!

To hear the pope complain about the duties of being the pope is like hearing a rock star or movie star complain that he has no privacy anymore. Really? Are you gonna go there?

Poor pope, shame on the billion plus people for looking up to you in reverence. It must be so hard sitting on a pile of gold for the rest of your life never having to really work ever again. Where is my manners? To think of the horror of his station, it must be such a burden to be carried everywhere on a golden platform.

Looks pretty cozy to me.

My church would say this is what caused this decline in health. Exercise is good for a man. He wouldn't even climb ten steps any more.

Yes I'm going to go there. You guys are so blinded by your hatred you just refuse to see what is in front of you. You and me if we want to and if we had the money we can go anywhere we want to and do whatever we want to. Pope can't do that. You don't see him out golfing. You don't see him out in a brand new corvette with the windows down and the wind in his hair. It isn't what you would like to think, but keep blinding yourself with your hatred.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Nope, he doesn't get a day off. He has several castles he went to for vation several times every year. Where do you come up with this garbage?

Bishop of Castel Gandolfo, Italy, says having the Pope so close during the summer months 'is a great joy.' He says the Pope puts an emphasis on the value of time off, which should be for recreation for the heart, the spirit and the mind.

Read more: Pope's Vacation Reflects Purpose of Rest | Daily News | NCRegister.com

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Where does it say we must go to Mary first? And do you have proof Mary is in the grave? And even if she is, how does this preclude her being in heaven?

Say ten "hail marys", and then say ten "our Fathers" while counting the rosary.

I was there you forget.

Hail Mary full of grace....

This is praying to Mary. Don't you see?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I could list about 150 different texts that say when we die we sleep waiting for the resurrection. The doctrine of going straight to heaven or hell after death is from Satan. It was his first lie to ADAM. "You shall not surely die."

This is a subject worthy of it's own thread here.