The day of reckoning. What will replace the standard solar theory?

Loudmouth

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Michael

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How so, Michael? My solar theory allows for magnetic lines to heat the chromosphere

What magnetic lines? You lost your power supply for "magnetic lines" in 2012. What's the heat source? Even convection turned out to be a dud!

and and to force it upwards.

How? What is your energy source?

Where is the problem?

You mean *besides* the fact your energy supply bit the dust last year?

None of it jives with the SDO images! I've shown you mathematical modeling studies of sunspots that predict the most powerful magnetic fields are at the base of the sunspot, *under* the surface of the photosphere. I've shown you SDO images of 1700A and 171A that show the flux ropes descending right down along the penumbral filaments as "predicted" in those models. The 'origin' of 171A light is not located *above* the photosphere. There is no "transition" region seen in SDO. There is no limit in terms of where the mass flows come from either!

In terms of basic facts, you lost your power source, and even if you had one, it wouldn't jive with the images! There is no magic heat source in the sky. The electrical current actually sustains the "flux rope", not a simplified 'magnetic line'. The mainstream has the magnetic cart in front of the electric horse. Those are just a "few" of the problems with mainstream theory as it relates to physics and SDO data.
 
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Loudmouth

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What magnetic lines? You lost your power supply for "magnetic lines" in 2012.

No, I didn't. The magnetic lines are still there, nice and healthy.

Sunspots are explained by magnetic field lines:

Pores and sunspots

You mean *besides* the fact your energy supply bit the dust last year?

In your dreams.

None of it jives with the SDO images! I've shown you mathematical modeling studies of sunspots that predict the most powerful magnetic fields are at the base of the sunspot, *under* the surface of the photosphere.

I have shown mathematical models which work fine with the current model:

Pores and sunspots

Pure denial on your part.

I've shown you SDO images of 1700A and 171A that show the flux ropes descending right down along the penumbral filaments as "predicted" in those models. The 'origin' of 171A light is not located *above* the photosphere. There is no "transition" region seen in SDO. There is no limit in terms of where the mass flows come from either!

The pictures you have shown me show the chromosphere being thrown up into the upper atmosphere. Big whoop. That's what magenetic field lines do.

In terms of basic facts, you lost your power source,

One paper and one theoretical measurement that has yet to be verified. Hardly a falsification. Is that what your entire hope is pinned on? One paper?
 
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Michael

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The temperature of the photosphere has nothing to do with magnetic fields.

It varies in the umbra of sunspots however, and you've not properly explained it. Magic magnetic fields doesn't cut it, particular since your power supply blew a fuse last year.

Your model is falsified by the observed temperature of the photosphere, so why should I take it seriously?

If those pesky lower umbra temperatures weren't observed, you might have no reason to worry. Since they do, you need "magical" magnetic fields to explain them in your model, whereas I simply need on more double layer of non opaque plasma to explain those low temperature plasmas in my model. I'll take physics of magic magnetic fields any day.

They still haven't been verified. It is just one theoretical measurement out of many. Also, differential rotation produce magnetic field lines.

Why would differential rotation produce *stable* magnetic fields? More magic with magnetism in your model.

You have also failed to show anything below the photosphere.

You've failed to address the mathematical models of sunspots and why the 171A light follows the penumbral filaments along their path *down into* the photosphere. As long as you simply remain in denial, what can I say?

What is the density of the flux ropes?

It's always greater than the surrounding plasma because the current is "pinching" the plasma together. It's likely to be many orders of magnitude more dense than the atmosphere around it. It certainly has more current running through it.

What is the density of the photosphere? What is the energy content of both? You keep ignoring this bit.

No, you keep ignoring the *current* and the magnetic pinch in creates. That is the 'bit' that keeps being ignored in the mainstream solar model. They left out the *electricity* that sustains it!

The only denial is your continued denial of the temperature of the photosphere and how magnetic fields already explain all of the features of sunspots in peer reviewed models.

They are "peer reviewed nonsense" based on magical magnetic field lines that now enjoy no power source thanks to HMI.

It's all explained without the need for any "rigid" plasma, which is just your fantasy anyway.

We haven't even discussed anything related to the evidence of "rigidity" yet. You haven't even figured out the light source in raw 171A images yet apparently.

The bottom line is that standard theory is missing the key ingredient. It's missing the *current* that sustains the light show. What it's got is a *kludged* (Alfven called it pseudoscience) understanding of electromagnetic behavior in plasma. Alfven's double layer paper explains the "reconnection" of current that occurs in a current carrying double layer, thus eliminating any 'magic magnetism". The mainstream simply needs to find the *electrical switch*.

The mainstream model doesn't even enjoy a steady power source at this point. The convection predictions have been called into question to the tune of two full orders of magnitude, not just "a little".

There is no "transition region" seen in SDO images. The flux ropes originate and can be observed to originate *underneath* of the surface of the photosphere in face on images of sunspots. The mathematical models jive perfectly with the images in 171A descending along the penumbral filaments.

The magnetic fields align with the hot spots as predicted in a Birkeland model, and the mass flows up and through the photosphere are also consistent with a Birkeland model.

As far as I can tell, you haven't even figured out that a Birkeland cathode model does not *require* solids to exit in the 'rigid' layer. That "stratification subsurface" of a cathode could simply be a more dense double layer of thick plasma.

Before you go "eliminating" other solar models, you'll first need to fully understand them, and have some idea of what makes them tick. A convection failure of two orders of magnitude is a major blow to mainstream theory. Convection is a primary power source for flare activity in mainstream models, and it's the only thing that would prevent mass separation from occurring. Without fast convection, mainstream solar theory is up a creek without a power supply paddle. :(
 
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Loudmouth

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It varies in the umbra of sunspots however, and you've not properly explained it.

Already explained:

Pores and sunspots

Magic magnetic fields doesn't cut it, particular since your power supply blew a fuse last year.

Still running:

[1205.1530] On the Amplitude of Convective Velocities in the Deep Solar Interior

If those pesky lower umbra temperatures weren't observed, you might have no reason to worry.

Not worried. They are already explained by the current model:

"As the upflow velocity in a flux concentration slows and reverses, the upward heat flux decreases and the plasma inside the concentration cools by radiation through the surface (Figure 25 ). As a result, the density scale height decreases and the plasma settles lower. "
Pores and sunspots

Since they do, you need "magical" magnetic fields to explain them in your model,

And I have those magnetic fields:

[1205.1530] On the Amplitude of Convective Velocities in the Deep Solar Interior

Why would differential rotation produce *stable* magnetic fields?

Why wouldn't they?

You've failed to address the mathematical models of sunspots and why the 171A light follows the penumbral filaments along their path *down into* the photosphere. As long as you simply remain in denial, what can I say?

You haven't shown the 171A material below the photosphere, so why should I address something you have never shown?

It's always greater than the surrounding plasma because the current is "pinching" the plasma together. It's likely to be many orders of magnitude more dense than the atmosphere around it. It certainly has more current running through it.

What is the density of the corona compared to the photosphere? I want you to say it so that we are clear on this.


No, you keep ignoring the *current* and the magnetic pinch in creates. That is the 'bit' that keeps being ignored in the mainstream solar model. They left out the *electricity* that sustains it!

So says the person who ignores the temperature of the photosphere.

They are "peer reviewed nonsense" based on magical magnetic field lines that now enjoy no power source thanks to HMI.

Magnetic fields are still there:

[1205.1530] On the Amplitude of Convective Velocities in the Deep Solar Interior


We haven't even discussed anything related to the evidence of "rigidity" yet. You haven't even figured out the light source in raw 171A images yet apparently.

They are still not shown to be below the photosphere.

The bottom line is that standard theory is missing the key ingredient.

Just found the missing ingredient:

[1205.1530] On the Amplitude of Convective Velocities in the Deep Solar Interior

The mainstream model doesn't even enjoy a steady power source at this point. The convection predictions have been called into question to the tune of two full orders of magnitude, not just "a little".

Still there:

[1205.1530] On the Amplitude of Convective Velocities in the Deep Solar Interior

There is no "transition region" seen in SDO images. The flux ropes originate and can be observed to originate *underneath* of the surface of the photosphere in face on images of sunspots.

WHERE???!!!!!

The magnetic fields align with the hot spots as predicted in a Birkeland model, and the mass flows up and through the photosphere are also consistent with a Birkeland model.

They align with the current model, as I have already shown.
 
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Michael

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No, I didn't. The magnetic lines are still there, nice and healthy.

Sure because the *currents* sustain them, not "convection". They are Birkeland currents, not sterile magnetic lines.

Sunspots are explained by magnetic field lines:
More field lines that you simply don't have due to the loss of your primary power supply. It's two orders of magnitude too small to explain those powerful "lines" as you call them in your dumbed down world.

I have shown mathematical models which work fine with the current model:
Those models depended on *fast* convection. Pity that your model was falsified last year, and it's a bigger pity that you didn't notice or care.

Pure denial on your part.
The "pure denial" is all yours, starting with your denial of those HMI findings last year. All you're doing now is ignoring the mathematical models entirely for fear of instant humiliation. Even Kosovichev claimed the high temperature mass flows start *under* the photosphere.

The pictures you have shown me show the chromosphere being thrown up into the upper atmosphere. Big whoop. That's what magenetic field lines do.
No, I showed you pictures of the *photosphere* being thrown up into the upper atmosphere. Nice trick considering the fact that your model doesn't explain it.

One paper and one theoretical measurement that has yet to be verified. Hardly a falsification. Is that what your entire hope is pinned on? One paper?
No, it's pinned on 25 years of studying solar satellite imagery, and about 3 years of studying SDO images of the entire solar disk in lots of new wavelengths. It's based on computer models, heliosceismology data that shows a stratification subsurface under the photosphere, and it's based upon nuclear chemistry. It's based on Alfven's work, Birkeland's life's work, and a lot of other lab work that shows the "practicality" of the model, not just it's basic features.

Mainstream solar physics today is predicted almost entirely on what Hannes Alfven called "pseudoscience", when he presented his double layer paper that made 'reconnection' theory obsolete. The mainstream never even noticed!

Until the mainstream embraces electrical current, they will forever remain blind to solar physics. They grope around in the magnetic dark ages of astronomy because they cant find the light switch. :(
 
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Loudmouth

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Michael

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Er, after glancing through it, and realizing it involves a number of modeling assumptions, it will take me awhile to sift through it. It sounds like 'what we can't can't explain in term of a lack of upward motions, we'll try to 'fudge around' with horizontal and other currents. :prayer:

The current model is just fine. It explains all of the observations
It does not! It doesn't explain the lack of a mythical "transition region" in the sky, nor does it explain the flare images. All those images show that the hot loops are hot and visible *underneath* of the surface of the photosphere. Mainstream claims about the existence of a magic 'transition region" are bunk. The loops are hot and visible *before* they ever even exit the photosphere. Mainstream model claims about a transition region *fails* the heat test, and visual test, and the mass flow test. Sure other than that, it's utterly useless theory at explaining any of the important relationships in the images. "Link between hot plasma in 1700A and magnetic fields in magnetogram images? What links?" Sheesh.

Have you even personally figured out yet that electrical discharges *can and do* occur in plasmas? No dodging.


without needing fantasies about rigid plasmas and solid surfaces in 6,000K plasmas.
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/movies/T171_000828.avi
171surfaceshotsmall.JPG

Ya right. We haven't even touched *that* part of the evidence, and you won't even touch the mathematical sunspot relationships to SDO images!
 
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Michael

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Ya know....

The fact the mainstream models *lack* any expression of powerful currents is the dead give away. They are so petrified of "electrical current" that they dare not mention it, even when it's staring them in the face on a daily basis. :(
 
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Michael

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Page 8

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1205.1530v2.pdf

As mentioned in§ 1, recent work by Hanasoge et al. (2010, 2012) based on local helioseismic inversions suggests that the spectral amplitude of convective motions may be no more than 1 m s−1 on scales ℓ = 60 at a radius of r∼0.92–0.95R. Smaller horizontal scales (higher
&#8467; ) ie beyond their detection limits at that depth. This is difficult to reconcile with our lower limit of 30 m s&#8722;1 but may be possible if deep solar convection occupies multiple disparate scales, with broad, weak upflows surrounding very narrow downflows. This may well yield small spectral amplitudes for global-scale modes (&#8467; <60) while local velocities in downflows might be much higher. However, this still poses significant challenges to our current
paradigm for how solar mean flows are maintained.


In other words, they really could *not* reconcile the MHD model to the measured data, they just think they may have a way to minimize the damage and they do acknowledge the damage. :)

 
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Loudmouth

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Page 8

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1205.1530v2.pdf



In other words, they really could *not* reconcile the MHD model to the measured data, they just think they may have a way to minimize the damage and they do acknowledge the damage. :)



At best, they have conflicting results from different methods. There are multiple models using empirical data that all have convection currents capable of producing magnetic fields. We have ONE study that conflicts with the other multiple studies.

The short of it is that you are going to need more than just this one paper to demonstrate that there is a lack of necessary convection throughout the sun to produce magnetic fields. Second, you are going to have to rule out other possible mechanisms, such as differential rotation at the thermocline.
 
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Loudmouth

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Ya know....

The fact the mainstream models *lack* any expression of powerful currents is the dead give away. They are so petrified of "electrical current" that they dare not mention it, even when it's staring them in the face on a daily basis. :(

Yes, they are all out to get Michael Mozina.

Make sure that tin foil hat is on tight.
 
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Michael

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Yes, they are all out to get Michael Mozina.

Nah. They're protecting their jobs and Michael is irrelevant. :)

Make sure that tin foil hat is on tight.

Speaking of tinfoil hats, make sure to tell us if you accept the fact that electrical discharges occur in plasma yet?
 
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Loudmouth

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Er, after glancing through it, and realizing it involves a number of modeling assumptions, it will take me awhile to sift through it.

Just as the 2012 helioseismology paper involves a lot of modeling assumptions. They all do. They are trying to deduce the inner workings of the Sun by the few hundred kilometers of photosphere that they can see at the surface.

It sounds like 'what we can't can't explain in term of a lack of upward motions, we'll try to 'fudge around' with horizontal and other currents. :prayer:

Both of which will produce magnetic fields.

It does not! It doesn't explain the lack of a mythical "transition region" in the sky, nor does it explain the flare images.

Yes it does, Michael. You are going to need more than bluster.

All those images show that the hot loops are hot and visible *underneath* of the surface of the photosphere.

References?

The loops are hot and visible *before* they ever even exit the photosphere.

That's like saying that a rainbow is multicolored before it exits the Earth.

Have you even personally figured out yet that electrical discharges *can and do* occur in plasmas? No dodging.

Your definition of discharge is so broad that it covers any and all movements of charge. It is a useless description.

http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/movies/T171_000828.avi
171surfaceshotsmall.JPG

Ya right. We haven't even touched *that* part of the evidence, and you won't even touch the mathematical sunspot relationships to SDO images!

Ahh, the bunny photos.
 
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Loudmouth

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Nah. They're protecting their jobs and Michael is irrelevant. :)

Protecting their jobs from what?

Speaking of tinfoil hats, make sure to tell us if you accept the fact that electrical discharges occur in plasma yet?

Currents move in plasma? Yeah, already knew that.
 
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Michael

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At best, they have conflicting results from different methods.

Ya, one method (slow convection) being more of a *measured* number, and the other one being a MHD model of "gyroscopic pumping" which even the authors cannot reconcile to observation.

The short of it is that you are going to need more than just this one paper to demonstrate that there is a lack of necessary convection throughout the sun to produce magnetic fields.
You're going to need to come up with a *measured* number that actually fits your model. So far even the one paper's authors couldn't reconcile the two. Their gyroscopic model would make the concept of 'stable vertical fields' almost impossible.

Second, you are going to have to rule out other possible mechanisms, such as differential rotation at the thermocline.
In other words, you really don't care what the numbers say, what the sunspot models say, what the SDO images say, etc. All you care about is *protecting* your preconceived beliefs. Forget the fact there is no 'transition region' in the sky. Forget the fact that the loops clearly start *under* the surface of the photosphere and follow the contours of the penumbral filaments in every sunspot image. All that matters to you is protecting pure nonsense even *after* it's been shown to be nonsense.

Holy cow, even your own author "punted' when it came time to reconcile their 'mathematical model' to the observations. That wasn't much if that was your best shot at salvaging your dead theory.
 
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Michael

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How so, Michael? My solar theory allows for magnetic lines to heat the chromosphere and and to force it upwards. Where is the problem?

Your model apparently allows for magical magnetic lines to do everything you need them to do on command, from 'cooling' the photosphere, to "heating" the chromosphere. Your magnetic fields do all sorts of magic tricks on command. :(

The basic problem in a nutshell is your model lacks a legitimate power source to even start to explain the magnetic field strengths we see in the solar atmosphere. Since a cathode model drives the flux ropes with charge separation, there is no need for "fast" convection to sustain them in the first place.

Your model also 'predicted' the existence of a 'transition region', and it's simply *not there* in the SDO images! The flux ropes come *through* the surface of the photosphere, leaving their magnetic signature and heat signature on that surface. Your model doesn't actually 'explain' any of the observed relationships! Mainstream solar model is an *epic fail* in explaining SDO imagery and data sets. It won't survive SDO.
 
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Loudmouth

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Ya, one method (slow convection) being more of a *measured* number, and the other one being a MHD model of "gyroscopic pumping" which even the authors cannot reconcile to observation.

The MHD model is based on observations just as much as the helioseismology method.

You're going to need to come up with a *measured* number that actually fits your model. So far even the one paper's authors couldn't reconcile the two. They're gyroscopic model would make the concept of 'stable vertical fields' almost impossible.

You are the one claiming that no magnetic fields exist due to convection currents. Where is your evidence?

In other words, you really don't care what the numbers say,

Another irony meter explodes. What is the temperature of the photosphere again?

what the sunspot models say, what the SDO images say, etc. All you care about is *protecting* your preconceived beliefs.

Projection at its finest.

Forget the fact there is no 'transition region' in the sky.

You are the one forgetting that fact, not I. There is a transition region where the photosphere increases in opacity. Ignore it all you want, it's still there. I guess we can add this to the list of facts that you are denying.

Forget the fact that the loops clearly start *under* the surface of the photosphere

You still have not shown a photo of this.

Holy cow, even your own author "punted' when it came time to reconcile their 'mathematical model' to the observations. That wasn't much if that was your best shot at salvaging your dead theory.

It is a comparison of models, Michael.
 
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