Why do creationists insist that the theory of evolution is inherently atheistic?

[MrsLurking]

News flash. Science does not equal reality. Science is only the study of the physical world.

News flash: Science is the study of God's creation. God's Creation is REAL. God's creation and the study of that creation is REALITY.

I'm beginning to see why you oppose so much of the Biblical teaching on this Christian Forums. You have a low regard for God's creation.

 

[KWCrazy]

And then we found them and they're not unknown anymore. Who helped out with that?

You're asking the wrong person. I have no problems with science or geology for that matter. I DO know the limitations of science. I also know that God created a mature planet. He created trees bearing fruit. If it takes 5 years for a fruit tree to begin to bear fruit, and trees bearing fruit were created on day three, how old were the trees when they were created?
If the planet cooled and solidified into rock and water on day one, how old were the rocks?
If a star is 100 light years away and on day four it was created with its light shining on the earth, how old was it?
Science cannot answer these questions because sceince cannot account for supernatural creation or any supernatural happening. Miracles occur outside of the realm of science. That doesn't invalidate either science or the miracle.

 

[RickG]

So? it was invented by creationists.

Are creationists off-limits to coining phrases?

No, it just shows a lack of professionalism.

(And please be aware that I consider TEs as creationists also.)

I do not claim to be a Theistic evolutionist. My acceptance of evolution and my belief in God are not related. I do not try to reconcile science with the bible. You know very well that I do not take Genesis literally. That way I do not have to lie to myself.

 

[MrsLurking]

You're asking the wrong person. I have no problems with science or geology for that matter. I DO know the limitations of science. I also know that God created a mature planet. He created trees bearing fruit. If it takes 5 years for a fruit tree to begin to bear fruit, and trees bearing fruit were created on day three, how old were the trees when they were created?
If the planet cooled and solidified into rock and water on day one, how old were the rocks?
If a star is 100 light years away and on day four it was created with its light shining on the earth, how old was it?
Science cannot answer these questions because sceince cannot account for supernatural creation or any supernatural happening. Miracles occur outside of the realm of science. That doesn't invalidate either science or the miracle.

"Embedded age" and "appearance of age" is a myth based upon tradition, not scripture. And Genesis 1 talks about six YOM when God COMMANDED the universe to produce various things. Just because God ordered the development of plant life on YOM #3 does NOT mean that all of that growth and development took place in a single YOM! Do you believe that God created YOU? Did he created you EX NIHILO and in an instant? Or did it involve many processes over long periods of time? CREATION DOES NOT PRECLUDE PROCESSES!

God is unencumbered by time but he created a universe which IS bounded by time. God's six creative YOM of Genesis 1 accomplished all of earth's creation and history but that doesn't mean it was all COMPLETED in each 24 hour day!

(And by the way, if literal interpretation is crucial, "the evening and the morning" describes a single NIGHT! Not a 24 hour day! See the problems with "literal"??!)

 

[mathetes123]

"Embedded age" and "appearance of age" is a myth based upon tradition, not scripture. And Genesis 1 talks about six YOM when God COMMANDED the universe to produce various things. Just because God ordered the development of plant life on YOM #3 does NOT mean that all of that growth and development took place in a single YOM! Do you believe that God created YOU? Did he created you EX NIHILO and in an instant? Or did it involve many processes over long periods of time? CREATION DOES NOT PRECLUDE PROCESSES!

God is unencumbered by time but he created a universe which IS bounded by time. God's six creative YOM of Genesis 1 accomplished all of earth's creation and history but that doesn't mean it was all COMPLETED in each 24 hour day!

(And by the way, if literal interpretation is crucial, "the evening and the morning" describes a single NIGHT! Not a 24 hour day! See the problems with "literal"??!)

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

How often is the Sabbath observed?

 

[RickG]

Please keep that in mind the next time you hear something about a global flood.

So God put a bow in the sky to remind us that he would never destroy the world by flood again, yet he removed all evidence of that flood and made it appear that one never occurred. Yeah, right.

As I said here:
... embedded age is not about science.

I agree it is not about science, it is about God deliberately deceiving us. How else can it be interpreted?

 

[TLK Valentine]

You're asking the wrong person.

I suspected as much.

I have no problems with science or geology for that matter. I DO know the limitations of science.

As do we all.

Of course, imagination has no such limits, does it?

I also know that God created a mature planet. He created trees bearing fruit. If it takes 5 years for a fruit tree to begin to bear fruit, and trees bearing fruit were created on day three, how old were the trees when they were created?

I thank you for the illustration -- the trees would be a day old, with the appearance of being at least 5 years.

If the planet cooled and solidified into rock and water on day one, how old were the rocks?

They would be a day old.

If a star is 100 light years away and on day four it was created with its light shining on the earth, how old was it?

it would be one day old, with the appearance of 100 years.

Science cannot answer these questions because sceince cannot account for supernatural creation or any supernatural happening.

Then again, you can't account for it, either -- you can't even show that it happened.

All you have is a historical track record of confirmed failures to do so -- so many unknown things which were once attributed to the supernatural have been shown to be anything but.

I can't stress this enough -- the supernaturalists have an absolutely perfect record of failure -- they have never been right once.

Miracles occur outside of the realm of science. That doesn't invalidate either science or the miracle.

This is only relevant if miracles occur at all.

 

[KWCrazy]

News flash: Science is the study of God's creation. God's Creation is REAL. God's creation and the study of that creation is REALITY.

I'm beginning to see why you oppose so much of the Biblical teaching on this Christian Forums. You have a low regard for God's creation.

Please don't lie. It's unbecomming and wrong.

The study of God is not science.
God's angels cannot be studied scientifically.
Gods miracles cannot be proved or disproved through science.
Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of a man's soul.
Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of spiritual beings, such as angels or demons.
Science cannot explain or disprove the function of the Holy Spirit.

These things are real and are part of God's creation, yet they cannot be studied by science since they are not a part of the physical world.

If you claim that I oppose Biblical teaching, show it. I back what I say with the Scriptures. Man can be wrong. God is never wrong. If you're going to make an accusation, have the integrity to back it up.

 

[MrsLurking]

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

How often is the Sabbath observed?

Good point! The 6+1=7 pattern of Genesis 1 is repeated/modelled in the 6+1=7 DAYS of the Torah week, and the 6+1=7 YEARS counting to the sabbatical YEAR, and the 6+1=7 WEEKS OF YEARS which lead up to the (6+1) x 7 years of the JUBILEE YEAR CYCLE!

So yes: the pattern is NOT about defining the meaning of the word YOM in all OT contexts, it is about establishing the 6+1=7 PATTERN OF SEVENS---all based on the 6+1=7 YOM of Genesis 1. (I do think you are catching on now!)

(I noticed that you cited the SEVEN DAY WEEK in Torah Law but you were strangely silent about the SEVEN YEARS OF SABBATICAL WEEKS OF YEARS and the SEVEN SEVENS OF THE JUBILEE YEAR! Interesting omission, wouldn't you say?)

 

[KWCrazy]

"Embedded age" and "appearance of age" is a myth based upon tradition, not scripture. And Genesis 1 talks about six YOM when God COMMANDED the universe to produce various things. Just because God ordered the development of plant life on YOM #3 does NOT mean that all of that growth and development took place in a single YOM! Do you believe that God created YOU? Did he created you EX NIHILO and in an instant? Or did it involve many processes over long periods of time? CREATION DOES NOT PRECLUDE PROCESSES!

You are misrepresenting the Bible. It NEVER SAYS that. It specifically states that the evening and the morning were the __ day. When Yowm is used with an integer it ALWAYS means one callendar day. When evening and morning are used together, it ALWAYS meand one callendar day. Exodus 20:11 states that in six days God created the world and on the seventh day He rested. It's the basis of the Forth Commandment.

God is unencumbered by time but he created a universe which IS bounded by time. God's six creative YOM of Genesis 1 accomplished all of earth's creation and history but that doesn't mean it was all COMPLETED in each 24 hour day!

It doesn't state the hours, but it very specifically indicates one rotation of the earth.

(And by the way, if literal interpretation is crucial, "the evening and the morning" describes a single NIGHT! Not a 24 hour day! See the problems with "literal"??!)

You DO relaize that six single nights also mean six single days, right? From your post it sounds as if there is some difference. The evening and the morning happened AFTER the descrition of the creation that took place that day.

 

[RickG]

I have no problems with science or geology for that matter.

Then why do you deny so much of what is know?

I DO know the limitations of science.

Really? I don't know a single scientist that makes that claim. Where did you study science and what field?

I also know that God created a mature planet.

And this evidence is where?

He created trees bearing fruit. If it takes 5 years for a fruit tree to begin to bear fruit, and trees bearing fruit were created on day three, how old were the trees when they were created?

Yeah, right! Fruit bearing trees before the sun was even made.

If the planet cooled and solidified into rock and water on day one, how old were the rocks?

"If"... but it didn't.

If a star is 100 light years away and on day four it was created with its light shining on the earth, how old was it?

Science cannot answer these questions because sceince cannot account for supernatural creation or any supernatural happening. Miracles occur outside of the realm of science. That doesn't invalidate either science or the miracle.

Or perhaps some of the stories in the bible are nothing more than stories. Literalism only backs ones' self into a corner.

 

[KWCrazy]

II can't stress this enough -- the supernaturalists have an absolutely perfect record of failure -- they have never been right once.

Or so you hope.
You can deny the 6,000 + year history of man's interaction with God. It doesn't make it not so.
You can deny that God exists. It doesn't make it not so.
You can deny that Jesus, the son of God, became man and was crucified for the forgiveness of sin. It doesn't make it not so.
You can deny the existence of the Holy Spirit, but all who have experienced it will know you to be wrong.
You can deny the existence of angels or demons, but all who have had experiences with either will think you foolish.
The fact is, you believe that there is nothing else. Sooner or later you'll die. If you're right you're dead. If you're wrong you're damned.

You'd better be right.

 

[MrsLurking]

When Yowm is used with an integer it ALWAYS means one callendar day. .

NO. There is no such "rule" in Hebrew.

In fact, your claim doesn't even apply to the Hebrew text of the Bible. (Even young earth creationist scholars admit that Hosea 6:2 contradicts your "rule.")

I'm willing to bet money that you are not fluent in Biblical Hebrew and are simply repeating this nonexistent "rule" after finding it on a creationist website. (If you did know Hebrew, you wouldn't have made this mistake nor would you have overlooked Hosea 6:2.)

YOM usually deals with 24 hour days because the Bible focuses mainly on human events and not geologica ages. So it is hardly surprising that the Bible usually deals in 24hour YOM rather than the long-epoch types of YOM.

All of this is just common sense linguistics. And I will gamble to say that you have zero experience in Biblical linguistics.

 

[KWCrazy]

When Yowm is used with an integer it ALWAYS means one callendar day. .

NO. There is no such "rule" in Hebrew.

Just so we are clear.

We know that the six days of creation were separated by one evening and one morning.

We know that the one day followed by one evening and one morning constitutes a day.

We read in Hebrews 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath."

We know that Hosea 6 has nothing to do with Creation.
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

So for the record. In your opinion, how long were the days of creation?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Or so you hope.

Or so I know.

You can deny the 6,000 + year history of man's interaction with God. It doesn't make it not so.

Doesn't make it so, either. And you still have a record of failure to overcome.

You can deny that God exists. It doesn't make it not so.

Doesn't make it so, either. And you still have a record of failure to overcome.

You can deny that Jesus, the son of God, became man and was crucified for the forgiveness of sin. It doesn't make it not so.

Doesn't make it so, either. And you still have a record of failure to overcome.

You can deny the existence of the Holy Spirit, but all who have experienced it will know you to be wrong.[/QUOTE]

So will those people who have talked to themselves and/or experiences a psychotic breakdown. Doesn't make it so, either. And you still have a record of failure to overcome.

You can deny the existence of angels or demons, but all who have had experiences with either will think you foolish.

Not counting the ones who were dreaming and/or psychotic, doesn't make it so, either. And you still have a record of failure to overcome.

The fact is, you believe that there is nothing else. Sooner or later you'll die. If you're right you're dead. If you're wrong you're damned.

And given the opposition's spotless record of failure, I'm not concerned in the least with the odds.

You'd better be right.

Pascal's Wager is the "faith" of an abject coward -- go peddle it to one.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Just so we are clear.

Just so we are clear -- you completely ignored her correcting your bad Hebrew.

 

[MrsLurking]

We know that Hosea 6 has nothing to do with Creation.

Obviously, Hosea 6 doesn't HAVE to deal with creation. I was responding to your false claim that there was an alleged "rule" in Hebrew demanding that an ordinal number with YOM demanded a 24hour-day as its translation. (You didn't restrict the rule to creation accounts so why should I?) So I pointed out that not only does your "rule" NOT hold true for Classical Hebrew in general, Hosea 6:2 debunked your "rule" from within even the Biblical text itself.

(That sly attempt to move the goalpost was a giant fail. Did you really think nobody would notice?)

You still haven't told us about your background in Hebrew exegesis and lexicography. My husband who you wanted to consult is a Bible translator trained in both fields. But he is retired and doesn't do tutoring so you can't have his phone number. Plus, he likes to heed the admonitions of the Book of Proverbs concerning dealing with your "type".

As a prior post mentioned, you have a talent for digging yourself ever deep into a hole of your own excavation.

 

[KWCrazy]

Just so we are clear -- you completely ignored her correcting your bad Hebrew.

The use of a number with the word "day" is very illuminating. This combination occurs 357 times outside of Genesis 1. The combination is used in four different ways, but each time it is used, it must mean 24-hour periods of time. If the combinations had been intended to mean long periods of time, both the texts and contexts then become meaningless. A typical verse is Genesis 30:36: "And he (Laban) set three days journey betwixt himself and Jacob." God frequently issued commands that the people were to do or not to do certain things on a given day. This use occurs 162 times. A good example is Exodus 24:16: "And the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days, and on the seventh day He called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud." These are the most typical uses of the word "day" with a number.

If the meaning of the word "day" with a number always means a 24-hour period of time outside of Genesis 1, then it should also mean a 24-hour period of time inside Genesis 1. The words that Moses used to communicate what God did during creation are very significant. If Moses had meant to signify that the "days" were more than 24 hours in length, he could easily have done so. If we are to understand what Moses wrote, then the language he used must be understood in its normal meaning. The normal meaning is that of 24-hour periods of time.

The meaning of the term "day" must be seen in conjunction with the use of "evening" and "morning." Those who would argue that the days are long periods contend that these terms can have figurative meanings.12 But what is their meaning in the context of Genesis 1? We must ask ourselves, how would the people have understood these terms "evening" and "morning?" Is Moses, and by extension, God, trying to deceive us by not telling us the truth about the length of the "days?" The Old Testament records 38 times when these two words are used in the same verse. Each time they occur, the meaning must be that of a normal day.

source

I have also heard ministers say the same thing who WERE schooled in Hebrew. Using "the evening and the morning" means one day in Hebrew the same as it would in any other language that exists. If one was to pretend that the days were a million years long, he would have to contend with the fact that the nights were equally as long. Nothing can live so long without light. A tree or a plant that is transplanted in its mature state can live for a time without sunlight, but not for millions of years.

 

[MrsLurking]

If the meaning of the word "day" with a number always means a 24-hour period of time outside of Genesis 1, then it should also mean a 24-hour period of time inside Genesis 1.

Illogical nonsense.

Tell me, if a particular word in Shakespeare's TWELFTH NIGHT always has a particular meaning/definition, are all of the OTHER definitions listed under the word in the Oxford English Dictionary incorrect and worthy of removal?

Even common sense alerts most readers to such an absurd fallacy.

It is OBVIOUS that YOM often means "24hour day" when used in accounts where the daily lives of people are described. Most of the Bible is about people interacting on a day to day basis. Most of those contexts are NOT about geological epochs or cosmological eons. OF COURSE most historical narratives involving people will use the most basic denotation for YOM! But Genesis 1 is a rare kind of context in the Bible because it is among the few where NO HUMANS exist until toward the end of the chapter!

I don't expect you to have advanced linguistics training or even Hebrew exegesis skills. But I DO expect you to apply common sense to the English Bible translation! Once again, you are NOT in any position to pontificate imagined "rules" of Hebrew grammar which do not exist! (Many of us care about the Ninth Commandment.)

 

[KWCrazy]

Obviously, Hosea 6 doesn't HAVE to deal with creation. I was responding to your false claim that there was an alleged "rule" in Hebrew demanding that an ordinal number with YOM demanded a 24hour-day as its translation.

What ever made you think I was talking about the Hebrew language in general? I was talking about the Genesis account. As I pointed out, "This combination occurs 357 times outside of Genesis 1. The combination is used in four different ways, but each time it is used, it must mean 24-hour periods of time."

Please stop misrepresenting my posts the way you misrepresent the Scriptures.

My husband who you wanted to consult is a Bible translator trained in both fields.

So you're saying he knows better?

Plus, he likes to heed the admonitions of the Book of Proverbs concerning dealing with your "type".

Please describe my "type" so I don't take your comment as a personal flame.