No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?

[reformed ttL]

Your analogy isn't accurate, because there is nothing demonstrated by someone not making it to the moon.

The offer of the gospel and its rejection serves a purpose. God is showing the powers, the principalities, and even His church a lot about Himself by the events that unfold in creation. People have eyes, ears, intelligence, life experience, and a lot of other abilities that should not stand in their way to follow a God as obvious as ours. We have centuries of history to educate us on the affects of sin and the benefit of God's wisdom. It is right in front of us. For us to turn our backs on God anyway, in spite of all He's done to show Himself to us, reveals that there is something desperately wrong with us.

That the Israelites could turn their backs on God after the parting of the Red Sea makes no logical sense. That in spite of the plagues, Passover, the exodus, the manna from heaven, and everything else the people of Israel rejected God. That defies logic, but every one of us would have done the same.

That modern man, with all his knowledge of science, with all the evidence right before his eyes, with all the facts to support what happens when nations turn their backs on God's way of life, and the very clear explanation of the gospel, there is no logical reason for a rejection of God.

Something is very, very wrong with us.

This is where you guys don't get it. The offer of the gospel is real, but man is broken. If God did only what you guys want Him to He would make the gospel appeal and we would all turn away -- every one of us, because we have declared ourselves to be God's enemies. Man does not want peace with God. He wants to go his own way.

So in order to save the world, God, in His mercy, goes even farther than a mere offer. For some of us, He actually fixes what is broken. Just as He said He would in Ezekiel 36 (after many years of telling Israel to do it for themselves), God promises that He Himself will change the hearts of His people. He takes those that are among His enemies and makes them His friend.

That you guys can twist and mangle that into something less than beautiful is beyond me. God has given us a share in the inheritance Christ earned. He has made us into a kingdom of priests and a holy nation in response to the obedience of Jesus. We were in rebellion against the Creator of the Universe, and rather than sweep us in the garbage with a wave of His hand, He has made us His children.

You guys look at that and say "That makes Him a monster"? Really?

very moving and well laid out thanks brother

 

[Arcoe]

It's not cruel, because it isn't insincere. To offer the gospel to those you know are unwilling to receive still means the offer was made and refused. It merely continues to demonstrate the reality of spiritual blindness and the seriousness of sin. The righteousness of Christ himself is offered. There is no logical reason to refuse! Yet a love of the darkness overcomes common sense.

The offer to these is not offered with glee. The angels are most likely mystified by it, and by it God can once again demonstrate the ugliness of anything His Spirit does not move in man.

If I offer you and several others each a new car, but only give you the title and the key, am I sincere in offering the others a new car? Am I not deceiving the others?

Suppose I say it is all yours, you can take up the offer is you wish, but I know you must have the title and the key in order to effectively make this car yours. Yet, I withhold the title and the key and then blame them for not receiving the car.

If I offered you a new care Eddie, but didn't give you the title and keys. Would this be fair to you? Would you not think I am showing favoritism to the ones I gave the title and keys? Did I really offer you a new car?

 

[Eddie L]

If I offer you and several others each a new car, but only give you the title and the key, am I sincere in offering the others a new car? Am I not deceiving the others?

Suppose I say it is all yours, you can take up the offer is you wish, but I know you must have the title and the key in order to effectively make this car yours. Yet, I withhold the title and the key and then blame them for not receiving the car.

If I offered you a new care Eddie, but didn't give you the title and keys. Would this be fair to you? Would you not think I am showing favoritism to the ones I gave the title and keys? Did I really offer you a new car?

Arcoe, You are saying what Mr. G did, and the post it appears you are replying to has already answered your point. If you want to discuss this, you may actually read my last post and address it. Otherwise, I guess I'll pay as little attention to your comments as it seems you are paying mine.

 

[Arcoe]

Arcoe, You are saying what Mr. G did, and the post it appears you are replying to has already answered your point. If you want to discuss this, you may actually read my last post and address it. Otherwise, I guess I'll pay as little attention to your comments as it seems you are paying mine.

Eddie, why do you underestimate my ability to read and understand what you write? Let me explain what I was saying.

You said, "it isn't cruel, because it isn't insincere". I've given you an example of offering something to someone for which they have no way of receiving it; it is insincere at its very core.

If God offered salvation to every man, and knowing they have no way to receive it, as according to Calvinists, God does not regenerate them first, God is most insincere.

This is like offering food to a hungry man, then withdrawing it and giving it one who is full (regenerated). Then to add injury to insult, you then tell the hungry man he is guilty and responsible for starving.

 

[gmm4j]

Your analogy isn't accurate, because there is nothing demonstrated by someone not making it to the moon.

The offer of the gospel and its rejection serves a purpose. God is showing the powers, the principalities, and even His church a lot about Himself by the events that unfold in creation...

Sure the analogy is accurate. Not making it to the moon demonstrates you don't have the ability on your own. You need help to make it to the moon. You need NASA to make it to the moon. They have a new spaceship that seats 100, but they've decided they are only going to bring two and only they are going to get that billion dollars, but you're invited to come.

Something is very, very wrong with us.

This is where you guys don't get it. The offer of the gospel is real, but man is broken. If God did only what you guys want Him to He would make the gospel appeal and we would all turn away -- every one of us, because we have declared ourselves to be God's enemies. Man does not want peace with God. He wants to go his own way.

This is not true. I wouldn't offer the gospel, to a person I knew couldn't accept it. It would be foolish or cruel of me to do such a thing. That is what it would be demonstrating. That is what Calvinism demonstrates - a cruel God. That is why you don't present TULIP as the gospel to an unsaved person, even though that is what you believe.

So in order to save the world, God, in His mercy, goes even farther than a mere offer. For some of us, He actually fixes what is broken. Just as He said He would in Ezekiel 36 (after many years of telling Israel to do it for themselves), God promises that He Himself will change the hearts of His people. He takes those that are among His enemies and makes them His friend.

Ez 36 is specifically speaking to those coming out of exile (look at the land promises), they were already covenant people, and how did that work out for the Pharisees? He gives a new heart and His Spirit to those who believe. He fixes those who believe Him.

That you guys can twist and mangle that into something less than beautiful is beyond me. God has given us a share in the inheritance Christ earned. He has made us into a kingdom of priests and a holy nation in response to the obedience of Jesus. We were in rebellion against the Creator of the Universe, and rather than sweep us in the garbage with a wave of His hand, He has made us His children.

You guys look at that and say "That makes Him a monster"? Really?

It's great for you, but it makes God an unloving and uncaring monster toward most. He has provided a sufficient sacrifice for everyone and then He commands us to tell everyone that they need this sacrifice knowing that He is only going to enable a few select ones to receive it.

 

[Arcoe]

That the Israelites could turn their backs on God after the parting of the Red Sea makes no logical sense. That in spite of the plagues, Passover, the exodus, the manna from heaven, and everything else the people of Israel rejected God. That defies logic, but every one of us would have done the same.

You mean the house of Israel that God elected turned their backs on him? Despite all the good things God did for them, they rejected Him? This is not the teaching of Calvinism about the elect.

That modern man, with all his knowledge of science, with all the evidence right before his eyes, with all the facts to support what happens when nations turn their backs on God's way of life, and the very clear explanation of the gospel, there is no logical reason for a rejection of God.

Why do you blame the unbelievers when the elect do the very same thing?

Something is very, very wrong with us.

This is where you guys don't get it. The offer of the gospel is real, but man is broken. If God did only what you guys want Him to He would make the gospel appeal and we would all turn away -- every one of us, because we have declared ourselves to be God's enemies. Man does not want peace with God. He wants to go his own way.

How about a person living in sin? Do you think this might be the reason something is very wrong with us?

The offer of the Calvinist gospel is a sham and deception to those who were not elected. It is not real to them; it's a farce. It is only ink on a page, only empty words falling from the lips of man.

If man has declared himself to be God's enemies, does not want peace, but wants to go his own way, how do you explain those with rocky soil? They not only believed, but they were joyful about it. Doesn't sound like God's enemies to me and they want to go their own way.

So in order to save the world, God, in His mercy, goes even farther than a mere offer. For some of us, He actually fixes what is broken. Just as He said He would in Ezekiel 36 (after many years of telling Israel to do it for themselves), God promises that He Himself will change the hearts of His people. He takes those that are among His enemies and makes them His friend.

You forgot to add that God changes the heart of man when man casts away his transgressions. Please don't take just the parts which you like. Take the whole truth.

That you guys can twist and mangle that into something less than beautiful is beyond me. God has given us a share in the inheritance Christ earned. He has made us into a kingdom of priests and a holy nation in response to the obedience of Jesus. We were in rebellion against the Creator of the Universe, and rather than sweep us in the garbage with a wave of His hand, He has made us His children.

You guys look at that and say "That makes Him a monster"? Really?

Here again, it's me, me, me. This reminds me of the conceited rich, who look at the poor and proclaim how much better they have it than the poor. They have no care, nor compassion for the poor, only for themselves.

 

[Eddie L]

This is not true. I wouldn't offer the gospel, to a person I knew couldn't accept it. It would be foolish or cruel of me to do such a thing. That is what it would be demonstrating. That is what Calvinism demonstrates - a cruel God. That is why you don't present TULIP as the gospel to an unsaved person, even though that is what you believe.

That's just foolish, Mr. G. Life is offered to all, but man is too evil to accept it. The offer being rejected proves that. The Bible is full of offers of God's aid that are rejected. The rejection only demonstrates the foolishness of man. Good grief, this isn't hard to understand, but you've committed so much of yourself to battling your false conclusions that you have too much at stake to change your mind. You certainly don't have to agree with us, but your huge straw men are absurd.

Ez 36 is specifically speaking to those coming out of exile (look at the land promises), they were already covenant people, and how did that work out for the Pharisees? He gives a new heart and His Spirit to those who believe. He fixes those who believe Him.

You say he fixes those that believe, but their belief shows they aren't broken. We believe God actually fixes His people (the children of the promise) so that they will believe. That's not a monster God. That's mercy.

It's great for you, but it makes God an unloving and uncaring monster toward most. He has provided a sufficient sacrifice for everyone and then He commands us to tell everyone that they need this sacrifice knowing that He is only going to enable a few select ones to receive it.

The same people end up in Hell either way, Mr. G., and in both cases God knew exactly who would reject. You see some big difference there, but there isn't, since God Himself is the one who created absolutely everything. The offer is real. The offer is real. The offer is real. That this real offer is refused by so many is only adding to the evidence that we need all of God to be saved.

 

[JackSparrow]

........
The same people end up in Hell either way, Mr. G., and in both cases God knew exactly who would reject. You see some big difference there, but there isn't, since God Himself is the one who created absolutely everything. The offer is real. The offer is real. The offer is real. That this real offer is refused by so many is only adding to the evidence that we need all of God to be saved.

Yeha a closet Arminian. Eddie I believe you meant what you wrote That this real offer is refused by so many NOT God predestined them to refuse.

Yes God is the rescue boat that all need for salvation.

 

[Eddie L]

You mean the house of Israel that God elected turned their backs on him? Despite all the good things God did for them, they rejected Him? This is not the teaching of Calvinism about the elect.

"For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel"

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

​

The nation of Israel was not elect. True Israel was. Perhaps the most surprising revelation of Jesus was Him revealing the mystery that Gentiles were co-heirs with believing Jews, and that God's people were not those of a certain physical lineage.

Why do you blame the unbelievers when the elect do the very same thing?

Seriously? Believers have had their sins blotted out, and the righteousness of Christ is given to them. That is the only reason the elect no longer share the guilt of the rest.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

"But God" is the only reason the elect end up no longer guilty. Ultimately, God is the only difference. While we were children of wrath, dead in sin, He made us alive. If this passage doesn't send any believer to his knees, there is something wrong in the thinking of that believer.

How about a person living in sin? Do you think this might be the reason something is very wrong with us?

That's exactly what is wrong with us. The fruit we produce shows the kind of tree we are. We do evil things because we are evil. In order to get out of that mess, God has to help us.

The offer of the Calvinist gospel is a sham and deception to those who were not elected. It is not real to them; it's a farce. It is only ink on a page, olly empty words falling from the lips of man.

Do you feel better now that you got that off your chest? Do you honestly believe that if man could somehow pick himself up by his bootstraps and trust Jesus that God would refuse him? The problem isn't that the offer isn't real. The problem is that man is too evil to desire it.

If man has declared himself to be God's enemies, does not want peace, but wants to go his own way, how do you explain those with rocky soil? They not only believed, but they were joyful about it. Doesn't sound like God's enemies to me and they want to go their own way.

Asked and answered in many different threads.

Here again, it's me, me, me. This reminds me of the conceited rich, who look at the poor and proclaim how much better they have it than the poor. They have no care, nor compassion for the poor, only for themselves.

There are two kinds of "me, me, me". There is "God, look at me, me, me! I did what you asked, now notice me and do your part!" That's the legalistic, self-justified 'me, me, me'. Then there is "God, you have been so kind and merciful to me, me, me, a sinner who deserves nothing more than the rest of mankind."

Do you know that God never commands His people to do something without first reminding us of what He's done for us? We are to remember and recount all that God has done for us to all generations, right? The gospel is supposed to inspire obedience resulting from a grateful heart. So if the only 'me, me, me' we're experiencing is a realization of all God has done, it isn't really 'me, me, me'. It is 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.'

 

[Eddie L]

So if God offers something to a person that He knows the person doesn't want, he is being cruel?

 

[JackSparrow]

......

Do you know that God never commands His people to do something without first reminding us of what He's done for us? We are to remember and recount all that God has done for us to all generations, right? The gospel is supposed to inspire obedience resulting from a grateful heart. So if the only 'me, me, me' we're experiencing is a realization of all God has done, it isn't really 'me, me, me'. It is 'Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.'

I like this as it seems to me the way things are.

Why does God not inspire more those who refuse ?

I do not know. I believe it is a mystery and no one knows, whether Calvinist or not. I do believe man is judged according to that which he has been given. Thus making all thing fair ( not that God has to be fair if he does not want to be).

 

[Arcoe]

So if God offers something to a person that He knows the person doesn't want, he is being cruel?

Because it's a bogus offer to those who God did not elect.

 

[Eddie L]

Because it's a bogus offer to those who God did not elect.

That's only a valid argument to those that don't think it through.

The trustworthiness of God is objective. It's just true. A willingness to place your faith in God is made because one finds Him trustworthy, or one sees truth. He isn't trustworthy because I choose that He is, though. He actually is trustworthy.

So, point #1: God's trustworthiness is objectively true.

The human will is not mysterious to God like it is to us. If someone is unwilling to trust Him, God knows exactly why. Every genuine reason for a person's unwillingness is something that is blinding that person from seeing an actual truth. Those reasons are what is creating an inability. The real reasons will always be spiritual reason, so the inability is a spiritual inability.

Point #2: God knows the hearts of all people, and knows exactly why they are unwilling to trust Him.

Point #3: People who are unwilling to trust Jesus are unable to see the objective truth.

So, to us, unwillingness and inability are synonymous, or nearly so. God not only knows who is unwilling. He knows the cause of their unwillingness, and the specific cause of unwillingness becomes an inability to perceive the objective truth of His trustworthiness.

If it is reasonable for God to make an offer of the gospel to a person who He knows will be unwilling, it is just as reasonable for Him to make the offer to those who have spiritual reasons for being unwilling.

Man's hatred of God is not a simple choice. It is an inability to perceive what is objectively true. God understands the choice and its reasons, but that does not remove the reality of the offer.

Jesus came to help us with the genuine offer of the Law. He kept it for us because He knew we weren't able. The Spirit came to help us with the genuine offer of the cross, because He, too, knew we were unable. If the Covenant of the Law was genuine and not cruel, then neither was the Covenant of Grace.

You fellas can't see this, but we can. We can see a genuine offer made to those who, because of their own love of the darkness, have no ability to perceive what is actually true. You can disagree with Calvinism, certainly, but it is an inaccurate conclusion to insist that sovereign grace renders the gospel disingenuous and cruel.

 

[Eddie L]

Yeha a closet Arminian. Eddie I believe you meant what you wrote That this real offer is refused by so many NOT God predestined them to refuse.

Yes God is the rescue boat that all need for salvation.

I am NOT a closet Arminian. I am just a real calvinist and not whatever weird strawman folks around here invent and pitch a tizzy over.

 

[Arcoe]

That's only a valid argument to those that don't think it through.

The trustworthiness of God is objective. It's just true. A willingness to place your faith in God is made because one finds Him trustworthy, or one sees truth. He isn't trustworthy because I choose that He is, though. He actually is trustworthy.

So, point #1: God's trustworthiness is objectively true.

The human will is not mysterious to God like it is to us. If someone is unwilling to trust Him, God knows exactly why. Every genuine reason for a person's unwillingness is something that is blinding that person from seeing an actual truth. Those reasons are what is creating an inability. The real reasons will always be spiritual reason, so the inability is a spiritual inability.

Point #2: God knows the hearts of all people, and knows exactly why they are unwilling to trust Him.

Point #3: People who are unwilling to trust Jesus are unable to see the objective truth.

So, to us, unwillingness and inability are synonymous, or nearly so. God not only knows who is unwilling. He knows the cause of their unwillingness, and the specific cause of unwillingness becomes an inability to perceive the objective truth of His trustworthiness.

If it is reasonable for God to make an offer of the gospel to a person who He knows will be unwilling, it is just as reasonable for Him to make the offer to those who have spiritual reasons for being unwilling.

Man's hatred of God is not a simple choice. It is an inability to perceive what is objectively true. God understands the choice and its reasons, but that does not remove the reality of the offer.

Jesus came to help us with the genuine offer of the Law. He kept it for us because He knew we weren't able. The Spirit came to help us with the genuine offer of the cross, because He, too, knew we were unable. If the Covenant of the Law was genuine and not cruel, then neither was the Covenant of Grace.

You fellas can't see this, but we can. We can see a genuine offer made to those who, because of their own love of the darkness, have no ability to perceive what is actually true. You can disagree with Calvinism, certainly, but it is an inaccurate conclusion to insist that sovereign grace renders the gospel disingenuous and cruel.

So, are you saying God does not have a hand in the unbelievers not being able to believe?

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5). (http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/)

 

[Eddie L]

So, are you saying God does not have a hand in the unbelievers not being able to believe?

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5). (Calvinism Soteriology Topics)

Your question doesn't seem to have anything to do with the quote you posted, which leads me to believe you either don't understand the quote you posted, or that you are struggling with some conclusion you come to that Calvinists don't. The quote you posted is a summary of what my post said.

Man's inability is simply due to the fact that there are spiritual reasons for man's unwillingness to believe. Every person has enough love of the darkness to blind them to God's truth. This is the a cause for their unwillingness to trust God. God's Spirit doesn't put that there. It sort of "comes with" the whole being human thing. God's Spirit has His hand in removing the cause of unwillingness to those that are being saved.

 

[Arcoe]

Your question doesn't seem to have anything to do with the quote you posted, which leads me to believe you either don't understand the quote you posted, or that you are struggling with some conclusion you come to that Calvinists don't. The quote you posted is a summary of what my post said.

Man's inability is simply due to the fact that there are spiritual reasons for man's unwillingness to believe. Every person has enough love of the darkness to blind them to God's truth. This is the a cause for their unwillingness to trust God. God's Spirit doesn't put that there. It sort of "comes with" the whole being human thing. God's Spirit has His hand in removing the cause of unwillingness to those that are being saved.

I was starting to believe you Eddie, then you make that last statement. If God's Spirit does nothing to the non elect, can they be saved? If God chooses not to effect them through His Spirit, how in the world is the gospel message to them anything but insincere? It's a bogus message if God doesn't move to save them.

I also wonder, do you present the 5 petals of Calvinism's gospel to the unsaved? Do you tell them, they might be elect, or they might not? Do you tell them there is no way for you to assure them if Calvinism's gospel will be effective for them? Do you present them with the truth you believe? Do you tell them that if God doesn't make them alive, and didn't elect them, the gospel you are giving them is rubbish.

Or do you use the Arminian gospel when you tell someone about salvation?

 

[Eddie L]

I was starting to believe you Eddie, then you make that last statement. If God's Spirit does nothing to the non elect, can they be saved?

They won't be saved, because they will remain unwilling to trust in God's faithfulness. They are blinded by sin, and therefore cannot see the truth that God can save them.

If God chooses not to effect them through His Spirit, how in the world is the gospel message to them anything but insincere? It's a bogus message if God doesn't move to save them.

Sigh... I've already spoken to this many times. The gospel is sincere because anyone who trusts in God, who calls on His name, and relies on the work of Jesus will be saved. God knows who won't believe, and He knows why they won't believe, and He isn't holding something back from people who are wanting to have it. He is treating them exactly as you want Him to. He is leaving their will alone.

I also wonder, do you present the 5 petals of Calvinism's gospel to the unsaved? Do you tell them, they might be elect, or they might not? Do you tell them there is no way for you to assure them if Calvinism's gospel will be effective for them? Do you present them with the truth you believe? Do you tell them that if God doesn't make them alive, and didn't elect them, the gospel you are giving them is rubbish.

I'll let you get a hold of yourself. There is no point in us discussing this, Arcoe, because not only do you not agree with us (which is fine), but you are unable to even understand what we say.

 

[Arcoe]

They won't be saved, because they will remain unwilling to trust in God's faithfulness. They are blinded by sin, and therefore cannot see the truth that God can save them.

So, can you provide me passages which state God changes a man's will so that he will believe?

Sigh... I've already spoken to this many times. The gospel is sincere because anyone who trusts in God, who calls on His name, and relies on the work of Jesus will be saved. God knows who won't believe, and He knows why they won't believe, and He isn't holding something back from people who are wanting to have it. He is treating them exactly as you want Him to. He is leaving their will alone.

Have you taken my offer of a new car yet? I sure hope sin isn't holding you back. By the way, I have chosen beforehand that you ARE NOT getting that new car, but I'm going to offer anyway.

I'll let you get a hold of yourself. There is no point in us discussing this, Arcoe, because not only do you not agree with us (which is fine), but you are unable to even understand what we say.

Eddie, I simply asked if you use the Calvinist gospel of the 5 petals, or if you used the Arminian gospel when talking to the unsaved. There is a difference you know. That's okay, I think I know the answer.

 

[Eddie L]

So, can you provide me passages which state God changes a man's will so that he will believe?

Yes, I can. Can you show me any verse that shows God does not interfere with man's will?