Where are the likeminded?

[Dorothea]

Ah, I don't either, but it isn't because I'm adverse to it. Other people seem to shy away from the topic. I'm not easily offended by opposing views, so I'm usually always up for an impromptu discussion. Alas, the internet is the only place I can go for this (and it isn't as much fun as face to face discussions).

I'm less comfortable getting into these types of discussions in person, but it depends on the people and such, really.

btw, it's nice to see you here, seashale. It's been quite a while.

 

[gzt]

Interesting you noted as you did on the latter two, as I've been intrigued seeing the ways that there are differing levels of Communsit thought (just as it is with Capitalist thought) and seen other Orthodox note where they supported things like anarcho-communism and even felt that the Byzantine Empire itself was Communist on multiple levels ( #29 #57, #66 , #78, #82 , #86 , #89, #17 and #16 ) - and historically, with many in the African American community, they were hard workers/patriots and yet they either worked with Communist organizations aiding the community when others didn't (as Martin Luther King did, #51 )...or they themselves were COmmunists (more shared here in #46 , . The communist label often seems to generate a lot of controversy where they may be none due to the image that others have when thinking on the U.S.S.R and Stalin - even though that wasn't the representation for all forms of it just like the crazy/greedy folks who got insanely rich and ruthless with the poor during the Industrial Revolution aren't what others define as all capitalist.

For Orthodox Church memebers in Cuba who support their government/politics (if part of the revolutionary spirit that was a part of their history), they are pretty interesting to study.

I do wonder if it's always a negative to discuss politics in Church since some have felt that doing so may them feel like they didn't have to pretend to see something one way that they didn't - so long as the environment was one they could feel safe even if others disagreed (when they chose to at least listen/honestly note where they may be uncomfortable even though they weren't gonna ridicule them).

Well, yes, I mean, I identify as a social democrat, which is a sort of non-revolutionary socialism-lite that has room for a lot of capitalism, so I don't have problems with a bunch of communist ideas. I made sure to capitalize the name in order to refer to the parties themselves. While communism has some ideas we can agree or disagree on (just like capitalism), the Communist Party in whatever country has always had some intrinsically bad associations - support of revolution, support of the USSR, support for the persecution of Christians... Which means that a Christian might in good faith support them right now, but I think they'd have to do some gymnastics.

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

Haha! I know that feeling. That's how us humans are.
If you are religious you are suspected to be conservative/right and if you are left or liberal,
you are suspected to be immoral/junky/hedonist/atheist.
Heck, some people suspect I am supporting Golden Dawn (the nazi party of Greece) simply because I am interested in Byzantine History!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well, yes, I mean, I identify as a social democrat, which is a sort of non-revolutionary socialism-lite that has room for a lot of capitalism, so I don't have problems with a bunch of communist ideas. I made sure to capitalize the name in order to refer to the parties themselves. While communism has some ideas we can agree or disagree on (just like capitalism), the Communist Party in whatever country has always had some intrinsically bad associations - support of revolution, support of the USSR, support for the persecution of Christians... Which means that a Christian might in good faith support them right now, but I think they'd have to do some gymnastics.

I got ya. I tend to favor Democratic Socialism - and at times, in moments where things seem extreme, can definately lean toward some of the more revolutionary stances that have developed in history (with Gift Economy being the main one I'd prefer)...but I relate to you since I've had a lot of instances where I can agree with a lot of communist ideas and capitalist ideas - specifically those which are considerate of the situation of others and are focused on more than just profit. The COmmunist Party itself had many variations - as the party in the South was concerned for fair treatment and fought for the liberation of blacks who were oppressed - many leading figures in black history being a part of it - and others, such as those with the Communist Party in other places have often been staunchly against persecuting believers...unlike what occurred in the U.S.S.R in how atheistic it was - to the detriment of the Russian Orthodox Church (just as it was in China in many instances)...and there were always others who saw the USSR mirroring the U.SA in the fact that both had differing ideologies (one for capitalism predominately and the other for capitalism ) and yet both of them did much of the same thing - with good and bad occurring in both areas and each having periods where the way they developed in one area was truly beneficial but later became extremely corrupted in time...and all of that due to how men are falliable and can corrupt any idea/system.

IMHO, it makes sense whenever other believers note that there are some intrinsicly bad associations with all major political/economic systems due to the flaws of men being able to mess up a lot of things....

 

[Mariya116]

What would be interesting to me would be to see what happened if pro-choice Republicans managed to take over the GOP and the pro-life Democrats managed to take over the Democrats. I wonder if those who have demonized the Democrats all these years would have the ability to vote for a Democrat since that would be the pro-life candidate.

A lot of Democrats feel that abortion is out of the question for them. It would be out of the question for me. However, they do not feel it is their place to make that decision for another individual.

In my family, both my grandmother and my mother had two abortions each. I was supposed to be my mother's third abortion but she changed her mind. I know firsthand (not from propaganda) what a woman who decides for or against abortion goes through.

I am pro-choice because: when a woman for whatever reason feels her only choice is to have an abortion, she will go and have it legally or illegally, as women have done for centuries. Legal abortion will save at least one life - the mother's. When a woman is on the edge, it is the presence of Social Services that will, with God's grace, assure her of help to come and encourage her to keep the baby. Whether the father is there or not, whether her family is there or not - she is not alone, the government will help her.

And to decide to give the baby up for adoption is a harder decision for many women than to have an abortion. Please feel free to read further here: http://works.bepress.com/mirah_riben/10/ (a downloadable presentation). Not many women decide to go this path.

Whether we like it or not - it is the reality of how such decisions are made.

 

[katherine2001]

But there is an organization within the Democrats called Democrats for Life and quite a few of them were elected this year. I have no problems with abortion being outlawed, as murder is outlawed. We don't get a choice about killing someone that we are angry at. With all due respect, if the woman chose to have sex, she made her choice. There is a risk that if you have sex, you can get pregnant. If you get pregnant, and can't raise it, then adoption is an option. Abortion is murder. Very, very few abortions are done because the mother's life is at risk. If she is having mental problems due to the pregnancy, then get her the counseling that she needs to get. That child in her womb is a human being who has a right to live. That child's life is a God-given life. It is someone's right to live vs. not wanting to be bothered with a child or not being able to support the child--and the first one is the fundamental right. If she can't keep the child, there are many people out there more than willing to adopt the child and love it as if it was their own child. If the woman goes to a crisis pregnancy center, they will give her all the help she needs to get her through the pregnancy and give the child up for adoption if that is what she chooses to do. A child has no say in how he or she was conceived, and it is wrong that the child is the one who has to pay for the parents' choice. Again, if the parties chose to have sex, then they made their choice already.

A woman has a lot more problems when she comes to realize that her child was not just a blob of tissue but was a real human being and has to deal with the fact that she murdered another human being--her own child. The fact is, these women are lied to, and they want to believe what they are being told to because they are in a bind. Watch the March for Life sometime and listen to the women who have had abortions and have to live with that fact now that they know the truth.

 

[Mariya116]

I agree with your point completely, Katherine. My point in the previous post was that in reality, if abortion is outlawed it will continue just as before, only illegally, and adoption is not an easy decision to make for reasons explained in the presentation I referenced.

I have certainly listened to women who have had abortions, my Mom and Grandma. My Grandma struggled with it all her life.

This is why it is one of the most complicated issues...

 

[Gnarwhal]

A lot of Democrats feel that abortion is out of the question for them. It would be out of the question for me. However, they do not feel it is their place to make that decision for another individual.

In my family, both my grandmother and my mother had two abortions each. I was supposed to be my mother's third abortion but she changed her mind. I know firsthand (not from propaganda) what a woman who decides for or against abortion goes through.

I am pro-choice because: when a woman for whatever reason feels her only choice is to have an abortion, she will go and have it legally or illegally, as women have done for centuries. Legal abortion will save at least one life - the mother's. When a woman is on the edge, it is the presence of Social Services that will, with God's grace, assure her of help to come and encourage her to keep the baby. Whether the father is there or not, whether her family is there or not - she is not alone, the government will help her.

And to decide to give the baby up for adoption is a harder decision for many women than to have an abortion. Please feel free to read further here: "Universality of grief experienced by mothers who lose children to adop" by Mirah Riben (a downloadable presentation). Not many women decide to go this path.

Whether we like it or not - it is the reality of how such decisions are made.

It's true, I heard a friend elsewhere here on CF say that "being pro-choice does not mean being pro-abortion". The way I see it, if my wife were pregnant and facing life-threatening complications from said pregnancy, I wouldn't want the decision to already have been made for her. I would want her to have options and I would beg her to choose the one that would save her life. Like the case of the Indian woman in Ireland, I wouldn't want to end up losing an additional life, that of my wife's. It's the lesser of two evils I suppose.

Mind Theory - and the stuff related to the Mind in Conscious Human Thought is covered by the Rinpoche Guru.

Hi MaggaSimplePath, welcome to TAW!

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[RKO]

Geez folks...

I'm dreaming of...

an online community where it's okay to be both Orthodox and Democrat. Does one exist?

I started to say that I'm WITH you. I temporarily forgot that I am not Orthodox...yet.

 

[rusmeister]

Lukaris, you make a valid point and thank you for your input. The sad thing is that when you are in a place where no one wants to listen to you, you are likely to leave that place and go somewhere else. This is how the GOP is losing young people, and I am afraid that the Church is in danger of losing its young people if it dismisses their opinions that are different from grandpas' and grandmas'. Young people want to belong in society, older people are more comfortable maintaining their long term beliefs and communicating only with those who share them. Telling young people to shut up and listen to their elders is not relating, it is distancing. Certainly, my priest deleting my blessing to the President on the election night is not a pleasant memory, and I will ask him about it when I get a chance.

I think the most salutary thing for people of any age is, in coming to the Church, to to devalue one's own opinions against the teachings of the Church. To see in the Church a Thing that has the power to correct me, is more right than me. And if the living and visible members correct me with one voice on anything, maybe I'd better "shut up and listen" and put my opinions in the back seat.
I'm just saying that shutting up and listening can, and often is, truly good for us.

 

[Mariya116]

I think the most salutary thing for people of any age is, in coming to the Church, to to devalue one's own opinions against the teachings of the Church. To see in the Church a Thing that has the power to correct me, is more right than me. And if the living and visible members correct me with one voice on anything, maybe I'd better "shut up and listen" and put my opinions in the back seat.
I'm just saying that shutting up and listening can, and often is, truly good for us.

No.

When I learn something I have opinions and questions about it. I'm not the kind to be quiet about things that don't make sense to me or with which I disagree. I want to have a conversation, and my opinions DO matter if I'm going to truly integrate the information into my life. If I did not care I'd say "whatever". But I care and I do not. I'm a lousy hypocrite. I'm also a lousy Russian - their authoritarian way of relating does not work with me. When I lived in Russia, I came to dislike the Orthodox church and went to the Catholic one. Here, I found an Orthodox church where the father is American and a sweetheart. It's what keeps me there despite the aging parishioners. It's really the father that matters at the end of the day when choosing a parish. I like Western, respectful dialogue better than stern orders coming down. And I really don't like my homeland Russia.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No.

When I learn something I have opinions and questions about it. I'm not the kind to be quiet about things that don't make sense to me or with which I disagree. I want to have a conversation, and my opinions DO matter if I'm going to truly integrate the information into my life. If I did not care I'd say "whatever". But I care and I do not. I'm a lousy hypocrite. I'm also a lousy Russian - their authoritarian way of relating does not work with me. When I lived in Russia, I came to dislike the Orthodox church and went to the Catholic one. Here, I found an Orthodox church where the father is American and a sweetheart. It's what keeps me there despite the aging parishioners. It's really the father that matters at the end of the day when choosing a parish. I like Western, respectful dialogue better than stern orders coming down. And I really don't like my homeland Russia.

yeah, while I know obedience to one's spiritual father is extremely important, I think you are correct (and the book Mountain of Silence backs this up), that we are to think, discuss, ponder, and ask questions about what we hear and read. if not, if we just follow blindly then we will fall for whatever better looking smoke and mirror show comes our way.

 

[rusmeister]

No.

When I learn something I have opinions and questions about it. I'm not the kind to be quiet about things that don't make sense to me or with which I disagree. I want to have a conversation, and my opinions DO matter if I'm going to truly integrate the information into my life. If I did not care I'd say "whatever". But I care and I do not. I'm a lousy hypocrite. I'm also a lousy Russian - their authoritarian way of relating does not work with me. When I lived in Russia, I came to dislike the Orthodox church and went to the Catholic one. Here, I found an Orthodox church where the father is American and a sweetheart. It's what keeps me there despite the aging parishioners. It's really the father that matters at the end of the day when choosing a parish. I like Western, respectful dialogue better than stern orders coming down. And I really don't like my homeland Russia.

yeah, while I know obedience to one's spiritual father is extremely important, I think you are correct (and the book Mountain of Silence backs this up), that we are to think, discuss, ponder, and ask questions about what we hear and read. if not, if we just follow blindly then we will fall for whatever better looking smoke and mirror show comes our way.

Whoa! It sounds like both of you guys have misunderstood me!

I do not say, "Do not question." I say "Question away!" but know that there are answers, and when the Church tells us that Mary is worthy of all veneration, or that confession before a priest is right, or that one may not engage in sexual relations outside of a Church-sanctioned relation between one man and one woman, then we may be sure that the Church has answers to our questions, and answers that are right, even if our upbringing or education tells us that they are wrong.

 

[Mariya116]

Whoa! It sounds like both of you guys have misunderstood me!

I do not say, "Do not question." I say "Question away!" but know that there are answers, and when the Church tells us that Mary is worthy of all veneration, or that confession before a priest is right, or that one may not engage in sexual relations outside of a Church-sanctioned relation between one man and one woman, then we may be sure that the Church has answers to our questions, and answers that are right, even if our upbringing or education tells us that they are wrong.

Okay I see. My questions are actually not about any of the above, you see. They are mostly about the language that I find in Church books. For example, sadness as a mortal sin when we all know there is depression which is a disorder that can have disastrous effects. I deal with victims of abuse and violence at work, suffer from PTSD myself, and have done a lot of reading of psychiatry/clinical psychology literature. The whole idea of human feelings and drives as devil-induced passions is what I struggle with.

I recently watched the documentary Sister Rose's Passion about a Catholic nun from Wisconsin (who now lives in my New Jersey) who made it her life's mission to eradicate blatant anti-Semitism from Catholic teachings and books. While she always was and is a devout Catholic, she did disagree with the Church on issues, she spoke out, and her changes did become implemented by the Pope.

 

[Mariya116]

And as a result for example, in Russia depression is still a dirty word. Instead of treating depression with the help of a psychiatrist, people either ignore it or talk to priests or talk to people who invalidate their suffering or just drink I guess. When what they need is medication and psychotherapy, strongly stigmatized in the Russian culture. On Russian forums, threads abound such as: Is depression a sin? or Depression is a sin.

I talked to a Russian girl on a Russian Orthodox site who was raped and beaten, and everyone including her mom was blaming her (I do not know about her priest). I was telling her: you are not a sinner, not a failure, you are a VICTIM OF A CRIME. She was clearly suffering from the post-rape syndrome or whatever it is called, severely depressed and disgusted with herself. She stopped writing to me.

When I myself was sexually assaulted by a pedophile in Russia at age 11, the offender went to jail but I received no psychological help whatsoever, from the state or from Mom. I suffer from PTSD to this day. In Russia I'd probably be stigmatized as an old maid because I never learned how to be comfortable with men after what happened.

Anyway...

Why is a European country still so medieval?

 

[gracefullamb]

And as a result for example, in Russia depression is still a dirty word. Instead of treating depression with the help of a psychiatrist, people either ignore it or talk to priests or talk to people who invalidate their suffering or just drink I guess. When what they need is medication and psychotherapy, strongly stigmatized in the Russian culture. On Russian forums, threads abound such as: Is depression a sin? or Depression is a sin.

I talked to a Russian girl on a Russian Orthodox site who was raped and beaten, and everyone including her mom was blaming her (I do not know about her priest). I was telling her: you are not a sinner, not a failure, you are a VICTIM OF A CRIME. She was clearly suffering from the post-rape syndrome or whatever it is called, severely depressed and disgusted with herself. She stopped writing to me.

When I myself was sexually assaulted by a pedophile in Russia at age 11, the offender went to jail but I received no psychological help whatsoever, from the state or from Mom. I suffer from PTSD to this day.

Why is a European country still so medieval?

I don't think the stigma surrounding victims of sex crimes or those with psychiatric illnesses is so much a problem because of Orthodox teachings in Russia. My sister has had severe bipolar with delusions my entire life. She has spent time in psychiatric hospitals when I was girl. Through how she is treated in society I can see the change in our own country and it is only in the last 10 years (tops) she has been given any measure of respect or dignity from people, when they find out about her illness or see how it makes her act. In the past people would make fun of her, call into question her intelligence, and say the most cruel things. I have seen the same treatment to a friend who has dealt with depression since high school. It is only rather recently that I have seen people actually understand and treat them rightly. Many in our country still don't get the proper help they need in our country because of the stigma is still there in our country, awareness to these illnesses being real is something very new here.

The same goes for sex crimes and the victim being blamed. We had a very recent case in Orange County, California of a young woman gang raped by the police chief's son and two of his friends. This was just 5 years ago. The press cremated her and people believed the press when it said that she wasn't really raped, she wanted what happened because she asked them to make a violent inappropriate contento with her. There was a mistrial and the jury admitted it was because they felt she wanted what happened to her. Our country is very new in dealing with sex crimes properly and not blaming victim but perpetrator, and sometimes that still can be seen. Keep in mind Mariya, when we were little girls, it was still admissible in this country for the defense attorney to admit the victims past as proof she wasn't raped. The laws that stopped that are very new. Most sex crimes are still under reported because women are still afraid, not just that they'll be attacked again, but how the police and courts will treat them, of what everyone will think. Again because awareness of who is really at fault in a sex crime is something that is still new in this country, it has only in the last 2 decades we have been treating victims like victims, instead of blaming them.

 

[Kristos]

Whoa! It sounds like both of you guys have misunderstood me!

I do not say, "Do not question." I say "Question away!" but know that there are answers, and when the Church tells us that Mary is worthy of all veneration, or that confession before a priest is right, or that one may not engage in sexual relations outside of a Church-sanctioned relation between one man and one woman, then we may be sure that the Church has answers to our questions, and answers that are right, even if our upbringing or education tells us that they are wrong.

Wisdom.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Whoa! It sounds like both of you guys have misunderstood me!

I do not say, "Do not question." I say "Question away!" but know that there are answers, and when the Church tells us that Mary is worthy of all veneration, or that confession before a priest is right, or that one may not engage in sexual relations outside of a Church-sanctioned relation between one man and one woman, then we may be sure that the Church has answers to our questions, and answers that are right, even if our upbringing or education tells us that they are wrong.

haha, my bad man, I think (just from knowing you on here) that I caught what you said, I just ran with what Mariya said. sorry for not being more clear! thou art correct

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The doors! The doors!

Wisdom.

 

[rusmeister]

Okay I see. My questions are actually not about any of the above, you see. They are mostly about the language that I find in Church books. For example, sadness as a mortal sin when we all know there is depression which is a disorder that can have disastrous effects. I deal with victims of abuse and violence at work, suffer from PTSD myself, and have done a lot of reading of psychiatry/clinical psychology literature. The whole idea of human feelings and drives as devil-induced passions is what I struggle with.

I recently watched the documentary Sister Rose's Passion about a Catholic nun from Wisconsin (who now lives in my New Jersey) who made it her life's mission to eradicate blatant anti-Semitism from Catholic teachings and books. While she always was and is a devout Catholic, she did disagree with the Church on issues, she spoke out, and her changes did become implemented by the Pope.

Well, generally speaking, we don't HAVE any division of sins into "mortal" or "venial" - which is a Catholic legalistic concept. And "sin" is understood not only as voluntary acts for which blame might be sought - but ANY form of brokenness. So we might be, due to a "bad hand" in life, be predisposed to depression. But we are STILL supposed to struggle against the temptation to despair, and not wallow in it, see ourselves as victims and be OK with that.

And while you speak about Catholics here, the whole idea of "being able to disagree with the Church" puts anyone on REALLY thin ice. It's vital to distinguish between, say, disagreeing with local clergy whose attitudes may actually be at variance with Church Tradition, and disagreeing with the common witness of clergy and laity throughout history, which is simply heresy.

The worst attitude is thinking that one knows better than the Church (bearing the distinctions in mind). It's always the opposite of humility and the road to schism.

It seems like a lot of the theological attitudes that you encounter and describe are closer to Catholicism in general than Orthodoxy. But that's just an impression...