Levi/Simeon Cursed by Jacob & Yet Blessed by God: Did God Reverse Jacob's Judgement?

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Gxg (G²)

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Surprise...I have a totally different view of Leah and Rachel. Laban deceived Jacob when he presented Leah in place of Rachel. Leah, as a bride, was given by deception. Rachel, as a bride, was given by promise. Rachel was the woman found at the well of mayim chaim (living water), she was the one Jacob made covenant arrangements for with Laban (betrothal/ketubah). He worked to receive Rachel. Leah, Bilhah, and Zilpah were not an expected part of the deal, it seems.
Leah and Co. definately weren't what Jacob was expecting - although as other Jewish commentators have said, it's poetic justic to see what occurred when the Lord ensured that Jacob would experience exactly what he did to others like his father.

We most likely see how Jacob's children were affected by the dynamics of these relationships through their actions and how they relate to their father, as well as how they relate to Joseph. Yet, Jacob richly provided for all of them.
Indeed. The fact that sons of Jacob all decieved him just like he did with his own father Isaac, is noteworthy when considering generational curses/blessings.

The children should not have to pay for the sins of their uncle/grandfather, Laban, after all. However, they do have to be held accountable for their own sin. Thus, they are left to choose teshuva, and sometimes it takes a long time to break generational curses, to turn it around for the blessing.
Sometimes things being turned around have noting to do with teshuva as much as it does with God's own blessing despite the sins of others - just as he has often done repeatedly when blessing others who didn't deserve it.
So, EG, even though we haven't seen eye to eye throughout this entire thread... I consider you my brother...:cool:
Cool to know, although it wasn't something I was really questioning at any point because of not seeing eye to eye:cool:
And...as noted previously, I'm unconventional... what can I say? It is what it is. :)
Indeed. It is what it is and folks must be who they are.
 
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mercy1061

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The focus was intermarriage and seeing the ways God didn't allow it.

I gathered that much; so please tell me something I do not know about intermarriage.

It is nowhere conclusive that Abraham married his sister - and to claim such is to go past the text and what is made evident (except in the claims of Abraham, who already had a history of lying multiple times). Anything else is speculative.

The text explicitly states that Sarah was his sister per living testimony via Abraham. I have not went beyond the text, I am reading the text exactly how it was written and published. To call Abraham a liar is NOT reading the text, because there is not one verse in the entire bible that states that Abraham told a lie. There is much speculation and contradiction on your part. How can you claim to be Abraham's son and then disrespect your father; the Torah requires that we honor our mother and father.

Gal 3
29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children[p] of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.


There's never a need to make up theology or scripture where scripture does not say anything - for nowhere in Jewish culture or Jewish theology is it the case that the one who is formed first is automatically the first born. It is whoever comes OUT first that is the FIRST Born and has been that way since the beginning. Seriously, no need playing with the text since the phrase "older will serve the younger" dealt with the reality of how Esau (who was the firstborn) was going to serve Jacob and God ordained it as such. It was never a matter of Jacob being born first in the womb and one creates out of nothing to argue such since the entire battles of getting the Firstborn RIGHTS from Esau (as he did with the Bowl of Soup as Hebrews 12:14-18 and Genesis 25:19-34) is why the firstborn issue was in focus. The struggle in Rebekah's womb is centered on how the children were always destined to have a theme of struggle between them - Jacob and Esau, which is a major theme of Jacob's story. The goal of the struggle was not yet clear when Rebekah had the Lord tell her what he did - but it is hinted at in the Lord's oracle: the elder shall serve the younger.

It is only gathered through "common sense" or deductive reasoning that the firstborn would indicate the eldest son. You are so foolish in your thinking that the firstborn rights would go to the youngest son, because he was born first or left his mother's womb first. You argue a moot point, the firstborn is the "first born" but also the oldest son. A man counts his age in years beginning with the day he was born from his mother's womb. Consequently one man would be considered older than the other with this reasoning. However, YHWH knows whom he created or formed first in their mother's womb, so he chooses whom receives the firstborn rights. First you call Abraham a liar then you argue with YHWH whom he declared Israel is indeed his eldest son.


1 Tim 2:13
13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.

The method of Rebehah's in inquiry is obscure, but God's response sketches the future of the children to be born -- they will be two nations -- much like the angelic oracle forecasting the prenatal Ishmael's future in Genesis 16:1-12. The ascent of the younger son is a repeated theme in Genesis (Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Ephraim, even Abel) and later (David). As seen in Genesis 25:24-27, the birth and youth of the twins show many of their defining traits. Gripping Esau's heel is a matter of Jacob trying to pull Esau back so that he can be the firstborn, showing his ability to scheme and plan, with this act foreshadowing his more successful attempts to supplant his brother.


As it is, Esau learned to serve his brother just as the Lord prophesied when examining what's directly seen in Genesis 33 with Esau blessing Jacob/seeking to serve him when they met up again. He harbored no ill will to Jacob and in his exchange, Esau shows virtue and eloquence and apparently has prospered in spite of the loss of his blessing.
Genesis 33:17
Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two maidservants. 2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother. 4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. 5 Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”6 Then the maidservants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.8 Esau asked, “What do you mean by all these droves I met?”“To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

9 But Esau said, “I already have plenty, my brother. Keep what you have for yourself.” 10 “No, please!” said Jacob. “If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably. 11 Please accept the present that was brought to you, for God has been gracious to me and I have all I need.” And because Jacob insisted, Esau accepted it. Then Esau said, “Let us be on our way; I’ll accompany you.”

13 But Jacob said to him, “My lord knows that the children are tender and that I must care for the ewes and cows that are nursing their young. If they are driven hard just one day, all the animals will die. 14 So let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I move along slowly at the pace of the droves before me and that of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.”15 Esau said, “Then let me leave some of my men with you.” “But why do that?” Jacob asked. “Just let me find favor in the eyes of my lord.” 16 So that day Esau started on his way back to Seir. 17 Jacob, however, went to Succoth, where he built a place for himself and made shelters for his livestock. That is why the place is called Succoth.[a]
Scripture has nothing to do with the discussion, m. Being the firstborn, as the Lord says over Israel, is centered on metaphor. Firstborn is the metaphor of Israel's election as the Lord's firstborn son (Jeremiah 31:9, Hoseas 11:1) - and it led to the tenth plague having a quality of poetic justice when all of the firstborn in Egypt died.

As I told you before and I tell you again, Esau was never Jacob's servant; Esau never served Jacob one time. You call YHWH's words a metaphor? First you say we should not go beyond the text, then you call the words from YHWH's own mouth a metaphor. What verse in the bible states that the Word of G-D is ever a metaphor? You call Abraham a liar and you do not believe the words from YHWH. Wow!

I guess scripture is a metaphor where you say it is a metaphor, and when it says something you do not like, you tell me I am going beyond scripture; although scripture explicitly states what I am saying to you.


Tamar didn't need to marry Judah in order for his seed to be considered as a part of her heritage since he fulfilled the principle of the Levirite marriage. And there's no historical, credible or logical basis in saying Rahab was not married to Salmon. To do speculation on the text where it is clear isn't honoring what God's word said.

Only one person of the name is known in the Old Testament (the “Rahab” of Psalm 87:4, etc., being a poetical designation for Egypt); and Matthew mentions a person of that name, living at the same epoch, as the well-known woman, without further description, as though everyone would know who was meant. This seems to point clearly to Rahab of Jericho. In the book of Ruth only three generations are given—Boaz, Obed and Jesse—between Salmon, the prince of Judah, who married Rahab, and David.
1 Chronicles 2:10-12 /1 Chronicles 2

From Ram Son of Hezron

10 Ram was the father of
Amminadab, and Amminadab the father of Nahshon, the leader of the people of Judah. 11 Nahshon was the father of Salmon,[a] Salmon the father of Boaz, 12 Boaz the father of Obed and Obed the father of Jesse.
Matthew 1:4-6
Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
Assuming that someone is automatically of the Royal line because of genetics alone doesn't do much since there were already cases where kings had children by prostitutes and they were deemed to be illegitimate kids....and thus, for one to have a child deemed to be in the Royal line of scripture by Rahab meant that Rahab's child/birth were by legitimate marriage connection. The story of Ruth does not come chronologically after “Judges,” but as v. i of chap. i. tells us, is embedded in its history—”in the days when the judges ruled.” Salmon may have married Rahab many years after the taking of Jericho. The 450 years of the judges begin at the partition of the land and go on to Saul (Acts 13:20). Possibly Boaz was the son of the old age of Salmon and we know he was himself elderly when he married Ruth. There are still serious difficulties, but no doubt if we knew all, all would be plain. Perhaps the desire to find a second Rahab is due to a feeling as to her antecedents. The other women mentioned along with her in our Lord’s genealogy had all some disability. At least Rahab and Ruth were trophies of divine grace; and what are we to say of the wicked men in the genealogy, Rehoboam, Ahaz, Joram, Jehoiakim, etc.? Indeed, of the best of the links in the chain we must say, “All these once were sinners defiled in His sight.” Not one was worthy to be an ancestor of our Lord. But our Lord, though truly man by virgin birth, was completely detached from any inherited taint of the sin of Adam, by the fact of His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit. He was “that Holy Thing” from His mother’s womb. He knew no sin, neither was sin in Him. Let go that, and Christianity must go at once, as far as we are concerned.

Let me play this game by your rules, the scriptures never say that Judah married Tamar, scripture never says that Rahab was married to Salmon. Since you can not accept the plain words from scripture that Abraham called Sarah his sister, then I can not accept where you add to the scriptures where the scriptures are silent. Although it is generally accepted throughout life and the entire bible that holy men do not marry prostitutes.

Rev 22
19 And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I gathered that much; so please tell me something I do not know about intermarriage.

.
Already did - whether one deals with it or not. Moving on.
The text explicitly states that Sarah was his sister per living testimony via Abraham
And the GENEOLOGIES, by which identity is established, do not give mention of her at any point...with the text also noting where he already had a history of lying directly. Scripture with scripture, Bruh - if dealing with the word credibly.

. I have not went beyond the text,
Actually you already have - several times now. Yedida called you on it as well, as have others.
I am reading the text exactly how it was written and published. To call Abraham a liar is NOT reading the text, because there is not one verse in the entire bible that states that Abraham told a lie
Wrong again - and again, to claim otherwise is simply avoiding the text of scripture where the Lord/others noted that Abraham directly lied on several occassions. More was already shared earlier on the issue.



As said earlier:

Easy G (G²);61935806 said:
Personally, with Abraham and Sarah, I do believe that he was definately into the habit about lying on her identity...and I think there are other options present other than her being his neice.

Truthfully, as Abraham was noted to have lied on many occassions, part of me has often wondered if perhaps what he said about Sarah being his sister was also a lie. Within Genesis 11, one can see the names of the children that Abraham's father had...and when it comes to mentioning their wives, what the text says is that Abrahm, Nahor and Haran were Terah's children. Haran died while the other two sons married...and only Nahor's wife, Milcah, was noted to be the daughter of Nahor's brother (Haran) in Genesis 11:29. But never is it mentioned about where Sarah came from..and it never says she was Terah's daughter from his wife. I've been of the mindset lately that Abraham was lying about Sarah coming from Terah just as he had lied earlier (And was notorious for doing).

Sarah could've easily been a woman from the other nations and married into the family....and Abraham used the lie of her being his "half-sister" or "sister" out of convience just as he often did error on other things.

And with anyone having concern with bringing Abraham's character into question, IMHO, one may wish to consider how he already seemed to be in the habit of treating others in stressful situations. Abimelech, whom he lied to in the first place, was a righteous man....and with a righteous man there was no need assuming that he'd treat Sari shamefully---or be unable to handle the truth in her being Abraham's husband. Abraham's comment in Genesis 20:11---where he stated "I did it because there is no fear of God in this place..."---betrays both his lack of faith in God and his misjudgement of the people of Geerar. The whole episode reveals that the King and His servants were God-fearing, as seen in Genesis 20:8 and Genesis 20:16-18 when Abimelech was exceedingly gracious/generous. His generosity, on top of his innocence, contrasts sharply with Abraham's self-serving deception regarding the truth about Sarah...for the king's actions were a very public affirmation that he had not acted inappropiately toward Sarah...and thus, he was not the father of any child she had. Abraham was shown in Genesis 20:12-13 to really have been a greater sinner than Abimelech. For when he says "at every place to which we have come I've said she was my sister", Abraham showed that he REGULARLY resorted to the wife-sister ruse for his own self protection. Genesis 12 and 20 seem to reveal that it did not always work...and only God's intervention protected Abraham's relationship with Sarah

Abraham had used the same trick before to protect himself/his wife from others whom he automatically chose not to trust (Genesis 20:2)...despite how the Lord had already told Abraham that He would look out for them. Although Abraham is one of our heros of the faith, it seems he did not learn his lesson well enough the first time. In fact, by giving into temptation to lie in order to protect his wife/himself, he risked turning a sinful act into a a sinful pattern of lying whenever he suspected his life was in danger. And it literally placed the lives of others in danger that should have never been in such had he simply been honest. Because Abraham mistakenly/rashly assumed that Abumelech was a wicked man, he made a quick decision to tell a half-truth Abraham thought it would be more effective to deciecve Abimelech than to trust God to work in the King's life......and the all the wombs of innocents in the house of Abimelech were closed up. It was, of course, a protection given by God so that Abimelech would catch the picture and see he was in danger......for it was meant to change the situation rather than harm Abimelech.

In some ways, it seems Abraham struggled with trusting others who were worthy of it as many do today when they'll remember instances where others endangered them---but then sabatouge all other relationships that are good...........even those who are on their side. The fact that God came through doesn't mean it was due to Abraham's actions---as many times, God will work DESPITE a problem rather than BECAUSE of it---just as He did with the mistake of Hagar/Ishmael in Genesis 16 and Genesis 21:8-20..which happened directly before the episode with Abimelech. God in His Mercy PREVENTED Abimelech for committing great sin due to the actions of another who sinned as well in misjudging without cause. Sometimes, one can tempt the Lord and place Him in positions where he MUST intervene even when He was not desiring to do so in a prescribed way. Its like people who don't study for a test for driving...and then when driving, they have others in the car whose lives are now at risk. Their praying and trusting God to help them doesn't mean God approved of their actions when he keeps them from a wreck....for they were still called to study/train. And due to lacking it, others almost got killed


Going back to the identity of Sarah, some have suggested that Sarah's identity was that of Iscah...who is mentioned only once in Scripture.
Gen 11:29
Then Abram and Nahor took wives: the name of
Abram's wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor's
wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran the father
of Milcah and the father of Iscah.
In this verse every other name mentioned is of biblical significance, so the name 'Iscah' may also refer to someone of some biblical relevance. Observing that her sister, Milcah, had married Nahor (Abraham's brother) many have thought Iscah may be merely another name for Sarai (ie Sarah), Abraham's wife. That is to say, that each brother had married a daughter of their other brother Haran.

However, the meaning of the name 'Iscah', according to Strong's Concordance, is 'to watch' or 'observant'. Those who have thought Iscah was Sarah have considered the meaning of the name may refer to the well documented beauty of Sarah.

There are some good reasons as to why Iscah is probably not Sarah. A critical text which has to be considered is Abraham's explanation of why his wife was also his sister.
Gen 20:12
But indeed she is truly my sister. She is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
This verse suggests that Abraham's father, Terah, was married to at least two women. To a lady who was the mother of Abraham and to another lady who was the mother of Sarah. Since the word 'father' in Hebrew can also refer to a grandfather, great grandfather, etc, and 'mother' can also refer to a grandmother, great grandmother etc., and 'daughter' can also refer to a grand daughter etc. , other possibilities exist.

Although it's possible Sarah could be the niece of Abraham, such as Iscah was, it's also possible that Sarah could also be a younger daughter of one of Abraham's male ancestors provided there was a different mother. In interpreting Gen 20:12 we should also seriously consider the marriage laws in Lev 18:6-16 (repeated in chapter Genesis 20). While these laws were later documented as part of the Old Covenant regulations, it is also likely they were requirements expected to be adhered to in Abraham's time.

Thus, the regulation against one marrying either the daughter of one's father would suggest Sarah was not Terah's biological daughter.

Some suggest Sarah could not have been a half sister of Abraham. ..for in verse Gen 20:12 we also find mentioned that Sarah was truly Abraham's sister. Without a common biological parent the notion of 'sister' would suggest they both grew up in the very same family unit. Hence, while not biologically related, they would still regard themselves as truly brother and sister....similar to others today who grow up in families that are involving others together not biologically related and yet seeing themselves as "siblings".

I've had many relationships like that and it's a trip - and the same thing goes for noting to others who are my aunts/uncles even though they're not biological since they fulfill a role (more shared here in #24 ).



That said..
 
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Gxg (G²)

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http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/PDFs/SarahIscah.pdf

According to Jewish tradition, Iscah and Sarah are one and the same person.
One Jewish tradition amongst many others - mainly from Ranshi, whom others have not agreed with fully. It is a Jewish tradition that is accepted, although it has been dismissed a number of times due to Genesis never supporting such ideology - as is the case with many things in Midrash/Talmud and Jewish myths. Haran is the father of Milcah and Iscah, thus they are sisters. But that doesn't make someone just mentioned as Sarai to be Iscah. Abraham was from the upper class of Sumerian society. According to the Sumerian laws of inheritance, when the husband died, his estate passed on to his siblings; his widow aqnd orphaned children then had to exist at their
mercy. To overcome this, married Sumerian men began to legally adopt their wives as their sisters and to name them as the most faviorite sibling. That way, they got around the Sumerian inheritance law and made sure their wives and children were provided for. Therefore Sarah was the sister of Abraham regardless of of any biological connection. Isaac probably did the same with his wife Rebecca. .....but as it concerns claims of being a "half-sister" or a biological daughter of Terah, that'd be false to claim such and thus Abraham would've been inaccurate to still claim (after getting caught) that Sarah was a "sister" in the sense he conveyed it (biology rather than via relationship/marriage).



Sarah/Sarai: Bible | Jewish Women's Archive
Sarah is the wife of Abraham, the mother of Isaac, and thus the ancestress of all Israel. The Bible explains that Sarai was her earlier name and that she was renamed at the annunciation of the birth of Isaac (Gen 17:15).Sarah’s ancestry is not clear. Genesis 11 relates that Abram and his brother Nahor married Sarai and Milcah, respectively (v. 29).It does not name Sarah’s father, even though it relates that Milcah was the daughter of Haran, Terah’s other son, and then names Haran’s other daughter, Iscah. When Gen 11:31 tells that “Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife” from Ur to Haran, it does not call Sarai Terah’s granddaughter. However, in Genesis 20, when Abraham explains his wife-sister ruse to Abimelech of Gerar, he claims that Sarah is his non-uterine sister (v. 12). This contradiction has led some readers to identify Sarah with the otherwise unknown Iscah. But this would make Sarai Abram’s niece, not his half sister; it would not explain why she is identified as daughter-in-law to Terah, not as his daughter.
 
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MOD HAT

This thread has undergone a clean up and will be closed because of some flaming.

Folks, you need to refrain from negative comments about other members. Stick to the content of the post and to the topic and not criticizing the member.
 
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