growing more frustrated with Christianity...

[Gxg (G²)]

We want to stay, but it is getting more and more challenging. For instance We held a Hayesod Messianic foundations class on the subject in the church. We told them it would help the body understand Christianity through a 1st century jewish perspective. We had a faith about of outsiders come but only one other person that actually attends our church came. And she does the same thing I was talking about she does a shabbat with a messianic like church, (one that I don't quite doctrinally agree with) and attends our church... the rest of the church was unresponsive to what we were trying to do and one of the pastors there has recently started reading through the workbook that goes along with the class and it sounds like he is starting to have concerns about what we are doing. We are going to try and get him to actually take the class since we think he might be misunderstanding and making assumptions. The lead pastor trusts us and knows our hearts, but he doesn't have all the say and he has been pressured by other pastors and elders to make decisions he disagreed with so if we "leave" it might not even be our choice. I hope that secondary pastor doesn't try to tell us we are heretics but he may

Sometimes there are certain things that we may not be at liberty to share.....as some people may not be ready to handle it at the time and can only take things in small doses or on a micro-level of impact.

I'm reminded of what occurred in the life of Christ when he noted that the truth was often HIDDEN----for not even the people Christ grew up with (including His own Mother, who was told from the jump who Christ was and who "treasured" many of the things said about Him, Luke 2:50-52 Luke 2/ Luke 2:18-20 / Luke 2/Luke 1:1 ) did not believe Him, John 7:3-5 /John 7 (....and at one point, actually, thought he was crazy for the ministry He started to begin in full force Mark 3:20-22/ Mark 3 , despite all of the other occurances He had already did, from turning water to wine John 2:1-3 John 2 to healing Peter's mother and a Royal official's son, John 4:45-47 / John 4 and many other things...and some things that should've been clear they did not understand, Luke 2:49-51/ Luke 2 (

There is the reality that Truth many times in the life of CHrist was revealed SOLEY by the Father, confirmed by the Son--as with Peter and Christ in Matthew 16:16-18 / Matthew 16 ----and of course, same when Christ made clear that even for those against Him, to a degree they had no clue what they were doing, Luke 23:33-35/John 11:49-51 /on a side note, it makes one wonder about Polemics/Apolegetics and others solely relying on methods/means as if they alone can save and enlighten people when the issue is that people saw Jesus up close and personal-----with them often still not understanding fully, apart from the Spirit opening one's eyes...though other times, things He said were more than clear and He was more than open about people being "dull", Matthew 15:15-17/ Matthew 15 Mark 7:18/Mark 7 Matthew 16:10-12 / Matthew 16 /Mark 8:13-15 / Mark 8 /John 3:9-11 John 3

Luke 9:44-46 / Luke 9/Mark 9:31-33 / Mark 9
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44"Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men." 45But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus Again Predicts His Death

31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33On the third day he will rise again." 34The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Luke 18:33-35 / Luke 18

Mark 6:51-53 Mark 6
Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened.

John 13:7
Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
John 13:6-8 John 13

John 8:27
They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.
John 8:26-28 / John 8

John 10:5-7 John 10
But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

John 16:25
"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
John 16:24-26 John 16


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__________________



If you've ever seen the movie "Men in Black" (on covert agencies monitoring the activity of alien life on the planet), there was an excellent scene where one of the main characters shared a really memorable quote on how what we know is continually evolving, sometimes to the point of having to discard the things we "knew" even when we thought we arrived..with some things not being able to be shared when it seems others can't handle it:

Men in Black - Imagine what you'll know ...​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I just want to put in my view on some related things.

To state the obvious, God is God over all people, Jewish and Gentile.

You note something I also found very prevalent among churches in the U.S. Some have come to believe that the only correct way to do things is what they grew up with, but what they grew up with is a westernized Gentile way of conducting church and living out 'Christianity'. A narrow view of God developed which sees this western Gentile way as the only biblical, and other views or cultures are condemned. Of course, one of these other views and cultures which is condemned as wrong is the Jewish view and culture. But it is not just the Jewish view and culture but any other culture. There was a time, the western churches would send out missionaries who shared the gospel, but when a person of another culture professed belief, they were then told how to dress (western style of course) to be 'Godly', or how to eat, appropriate western gospel music, etc etc etc. So, you had a legalistic approach to Christianity, based on the western mindset, where the people from the Hawaiian Islands had to wear suits and ties, or western style dresses to Church or be expelled for inappropriate 'ungodly' dress, when the Hawaiian culture had Hawaiian clothes, which were just fine in that culture. This kind of slanted view was especially against Jewish culture.

What many miss is that Yeshua practiced cultural traditions when He walked on earth in Jerusalem and other areas with Jewish populations. Paul made use of Greek culture and literature to share the gospel. Cultural actions or traditions are not wrong, as long as they do not violate scripture. That includes Jewish cultural traditions.

Excellent analysis, as it seems dominant cultures often forget to accept what's done in the larger ones...

 

[Rivka73]

My theology and my wife's theology really started to take a Messianic turn a few years ago, mostly through First Fruits of Zion and their Hayesod program. Since then we have digested...

Dear jehoiakim,

I just had the opportunity to read your post and I can completely relate and understand your frustration. Though I have lived my life Massianic I am a lone sole on the journey when it comes to those in my life. If I ever bring up my lifestyle and the way that I believe G_d wants us to live I am only confronted with hostility and ignorance. There have been numerous times I’ve suggested my fellow Christians to throw religion aside and rather throw themselves into the trenches of study and meditative prayer. After all these years I have had zero effect on others. However discouraging I refused to allow it to affect me and my spiritual growth.

Personally what I have done in those times of frustration is to remind myself that it is because of ignorance – lack of knowledge – that others do not open their hearts to the truth. Furthermore as the majority of us have religion (i.e. church, congregation, denomination) we tend to find comfort in that which we’ve always known. Stepping into the unknown is scary for many to imagine and the fear of being “different” only makes people want to conform even more to their religion.

Know that you are not alone and that there are many who are in the same boat.

Blessings & Peace
Rivka

 

[visionary]

Some look for what you say, is said by an official, be it a scholar, pastor, or religious organization they respect. .. If it doesn't then they fear to tread alone like you... If you help them come in contact with Yeshua Himself, and let Him convict what you are saying is His.. it works wonders.

 

[yedida]

Can't forget that not only Yeshua's hometown but his own family rejected what he was teaching! So what makes us think we're exempt from that particular problem? We're not.
Take this for what it's worth (and I promise it's true) - I've heard my own telling others, 'my mom says.....,' 'my baby's mother does....' Your words and actions get noticed AND published....

 

[Forge3]

Dear jehoiakim,

I just had the opportunity to read your post and I can completely relate and understand your frustration. Though I have lived my life Massianic I am a lone sole on the journey when it comes to those in my life. If I ever bring up my lifestyle and the way that I believe G_d wants us to live I am only confronted with hostility and ignorance. There have been numerous times I’ve suggested my fellow Christians to throw religion aside and rather throw themselves into the trenches of study and meditative prayer. After all these years I have had zero effect on others. However discouraging I refused to allow it to affect me and my spiritual growth.

Personally what I have done in those times of frustration is to remind myself that it is because of ignorance – lack of knowledge – that others do not open their hearts to the truth. Furthermore as the majority of us have religion (i.e. church, congregation, denomination) we tend to find comfort in that which we’ve always known. Stepping into the unknown is scary for many to imagine and the fear of being “different” only makes people want to conform even more to their religion.

Know that you are not alone and that there are many who are in the same boat.

Blessings & Peace
Rivka

You do not know this. Some things are hidden in God and hidden from you. Living and loving within the Word are very powerful. I am a slow follower and at one time I seemingly went in opposite direction to the Word.

 

[visionary]

You do not know this. Some things are hidden in God and hidden from you. Living and loving within the Word are very powerful. I am a slow follower and at one time I seemingly went in opposite direction to the Word.

Amen... just because we do not have a instant positive reaction, doesn't mean that the seed didn't get planted where the Lord can water, and nurture it.

 

[ContraMundum]

My theology and my wife's theology really started to take a Messianic turn a few years ago, mostly through First Fruits of Zion and their Hayesod program. Since then we have digested quite a few of their books, the messiah journal, I participate in "Torah Club," I listen to Podcasts weekly from Beth Israel and Beth Immanuel, we ackwnowledge the feast days and partially celebrate Shabbat... we are basically Kosher ad working more toward Torah observance as Gentiles. We do it not to earn favor from God, but merely to understand what God has been teaching and to honor his commands. We are not Jewish, nor do we feel comfortable calling ourselves Messianic Jews, Messianic gentiles perhaps because we are gentile and we feel a unique call as gentile believers to remain gentile (so we are not 2 house theology)

We have remained in our independent christian church, which is great as far as Christian churches go, although we seem to get most of our spiritual meat elsewhere. We are continually biting our tongue at Christian theology and watered down teaching and that is saying nothing of the church, it is about westernized christianity lacking the cutural jewish context.

We are hoping one day to have a messianic housechurch, or small group as we move further in that direction, but it is really just a frustration...

I know my story is not unlike some of you. Just looking for feedback, comments encouragements, warnings etc.

Let me share a little of my experience and opinion on this.

I was born Jewish and raised Jewish. Over time, I drifted away and found a new life in Jesus. I now serve as a senior minister in an inner city mission where I deal with the poor and those afflicted by the many problems that hurt our modern society. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. It's heartbreaking and very tough.

When I was growing up, I was always taught that being a good Jew meant not just doing the things the religion required, but more importantly to be a good person, someone who does mitzvahs and is taking part in the world's tikkun (good deeds bringing repair to the world, kinda thing). In other words, acts of charity, helping others, being honest and kind etc were seen as what makes a good Jew.

Here's where I see something that isn't being addressed here. While it is easy to get frustrated with the Western Church, the Church is also a great place where one can find a nest and more importantly where one can make a difference. True, the church is enculturated. What isn't? I honestly think God doesn't have a problem with His people reflecting their culture- after all, the Torah reads like many of the other religions of that region and at that time. The only thing God has a problem with is sin and evil. He calls us to be in the world, not of the world as you know. Otherwise we would not be called to repair it. If a church, no matter how Western it looks is teaching faith and walking according to the Sermon on the Mount, then this is fine by me for its adherents and members. It must be more comfortable for them to find God and also to serve. I'm ok with it.

A lot of people come here looking for a place where "Jew and Gentile can be one in Yeshua". That, almost by definition, is the church. It's certainly not the synagogue. In the church I have had more love, peace and more acceptance for who I am than in some of the Messianic congregations I have visited, although I have very close Messianic Jewish friends (who have had much the same experience!) While I sometimes desperately miss Judaism and the synagogue (especially when times are hard in the church), I know where I have been sent to serve.

What I am saying is this- at this point of my life, I get to be a better Jew by serving the needy and and the poor in the community under the umbrella of the Church than I would attending the local Messianic congregation and being taught to stress out over the end times, or having people preach to me about the importance of having a "Jewish mindset", which is just insulting. Even my own family have said that I am still a good Jew according to my work (just a little lost in their opinion!)

Maybe you can find a spiritual home that is going to make you a better worker for Yeshua. You will never most likely find a place that agrees with your doctrine 100%, and for this you may have to continue to be fed wherever you can. But the NT way is a way of service, and I think that's what we need to be looking for: opportunity to serve God and others, not club membership.

Just my thoughts. All the best in your search.

 

[Avodat]

Let me share a little of my experience and opinion on this.

I was born Jewish and raised Jewish. Over time, I drifted away and found a new life in Jesus. I now serve as a senior minister in an inner city mission where I deal with the poor and those afflicted by the many problems that hurt our modern society. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. It's heartbreaking and very tough.

When I was growing up, I was always taught that being a good Jew meant not just doing the things the religion required, but more importantly to be a good person, someone who does mitzvahs and is taking part in the world's tikkun (good deeds bringing repair to the world, kinda thing). In other words, acts of charity, helping others, being honest and kind etc were seen as what makes a good Jew.

Here's where I see something that isn't being addressed here. While it is easy to get frustrated with the Western Church, the Church is also a great place where one can find a nest and more importantly where one can make a difference. True, the church is enculturated. What isn't? I honestly think God doesn't have a problem with His people reflecting their culture- after all, the Torah reads like many of the other religions of that region and at that time. The only thing God has a problem with is sin and evil. He calls us to be in the world, not of the world as you know. Otherwise we would not be called to repair it. If a church, no matter how Western it looks is teaching faith and walking according to the Sermon on the Mount, then this is fine by me for its adherents and members. It must be more comfortable for them to find God and also to serve. I'm ok with it.

A lot of people come here looking for a place where "Jew and Gentile can be one in Yeshua". That, almost by definition, is the church. It's certainly not the synagogue. In the church I have had more love, peace and more acceptance for who I am than in some of the Messianic congregations I have visited, although I have very close Messianic Jewish friends (who have had much the same experience!) While I sometimes desperately miss Judaism and the synagogue (especially when times are hard in the church), I know where I have been sent to serve.

What I am saying is this- at this point of my life, I get to be a better Jew by serving the needy and and the poor in the community under the umbrella of the Church than I would attending the local Messianic congregation and being taught to stress out over the end times, or having people preach to me about the importance of having a "Jewish mindset", which is just insulting. Even my own family have said that I am still a good Jew according to my work (just a little lost in their opinion!)

Maybe you can find a spiritual home that is going to make you a better worker for Yeshua. You will never most likely find a place that agrees with your doctrine 100%, and for this you may have to continue to be fed wherever you can. But the NT way is a way of service, and I think that's what we need to be looking for: opportunity to serve God and others, not club membership.

Just my thoughts. All the best in your search.

 

[mrs94]

Just wanted to say that I am where you are, brother, and welcome to the forum! Blessings in Yeshua!

 

[Humble Pie]

people are being called back to God and His Ways one by one and we are growing and getting stronger every day!

Sounds too legalistic, doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

[Avodat]

Sounds too legalistic, doesn't appeal to me at all.

That's OK, no problem. Not sure why we needed to know it, though!

 

[justhappeneduponthis]

Not club membership...youbetcha! The epistles call the church the "pillar of truth". There is merit in that statement as our Christian faith is a very tactile thing, spreading in the Book of Acts by face to face and by the laying on of hands and the breaking of bread together. Peter says that the Gospel preaches the Word of God. They are not the same thing exactly. The former includes the demeanour, aroma and testimony of the witness. What irks me these days is the amount of valuable time lost in church services to messages out of balance with anecdote, entertainment and little of honest scripture or of the captivating person of Jesus.Time to get back to THE BREAD!

 

[yedida]

Sounds too legalistic, doesn't appeal to me at all.

Yep, 1 John 2 is very legalistic. Need to leave it alone and stick with the NT - no wait, there was no NT when that was written - so what commandments? hmmmm

 

[Lulav]

Can't forget that not only Yeshua's hometown but his own family rejected what he was teaching! So what makes us think we're exempt from that particular problem? We're not.
Take this for what it's worth (and I promise it's true) - I've heard my own telling others, 'my mom says.....,' 'my baby's mother does....' Your words and actions get noticed AND published....

If I may, this is a Christian teaching that has been disseminating too long. (sorry friend)

Yeshua was not accepted as a prophet in his hometown because the people were too close to him. They saw him grow up, knew his family and as with anyone, it was hard to believe that here he was with them all this time and he was this great man sent by G-d.

As far as his family rejecting his teachings, I don't believe that is true. His mother as well as aunt more than likely traveled with him on his teachings.

His brothers may have been part of the 12. We know that Jude, James, the books in the bible were most likely written by his brothers and the writter of Acts says: These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

James became the successor to Yeshua in the Jerusalem congregation. He would have been the eldest next to Yeshua.
There is also evidence that the early Roman church sought to kill off all his blood relatives for fear of loosing control.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What issues with Christian theology do you have, if I may ask? Much of it overlaps into the Messianic faith, so I'm not quite sure I understand. Have you mentioned your concerns to your church? Are they open to learning the Messianic view of things?

Maybe the best option is what you suggest, having a Messianic housechurch...there may be other couples who feel as you do.

Shalom.
That would appear to be a good option me thinks. There also appears to be more and more Christian home churchesLots of Christian home churches.
Isn't that how the Apostels of the NT met] worshipped a lot of times?


.

 

[mrs94]

It's only legalism if you do it because you feel like you HAVE to. We WANT to do it to please the Lord. Big difference. Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind and strength. How do you do that? You follow His ways. Simple enough.

 

[yedida]

If I may, this is a Christian teaching that has been disseminating too long. (sorry friend)

Yeshua was not accepted as a prophet in his hometown because the people were too close to him. They saw him grow up, knew his family and as with anyone, it was hard to believe that here he was with them all this time and he was this great man sent by G-d.

As far as his family rejecting his teachings, I don't believe that is true. His mother as well as aunt more than likely traveled with him on his teachings.

His brothers may have been part of the 12. We know that Jude, James, the books in the bible were most likely written by his brothers and the writter of Acts says: These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

James became the successor to Yeshua in the Jerusalem congregation. He would have been the eldest next to Yeshua.
There is also evidence that the early Roman church sought to kill off all his blood relatives for fear of loosing control.

Not a problem. But I'd heard that James didn't get on board till after the ascension. And then we have the story of Miryam and his siblings being on the outside awaiting an audience with him - why would they need announcing if they were a part of his inner circle? Doesn't make any sense if they were a part of his crew. (Or is this just another typical NT inconsistency?)

 

[Mediaeval]

One of the best books encouraging a loving yet realistic attitude toward Christ's church is Dietrich Bonhoeffer's brief but wonderful book Life Together.

 

[Yusuphhai]

Isolationism is not a way to solve problems, some Christians have trend of Zionism, although they can not represent the main stream of Christianity.

But if the church leader judges that MJ is a Heresy(I have met this case some times), I would better not go there anymore.