Question about the RCC teaching of Outside the Church...

[Standing Up]

Unam Sanctam remains what it is; it hasn't changed. Unam Sanctam must be read with great care because of both its historical setting in a time when in the west there was only one Church and also because of the further clarifications given by popes and councils since 1302 AD.

I do not think that an ahistorical reading Unam Sanctam should be considered either defide or ex cathedra.

Okay. A pius opinion. That pun works, right?

 

[tz620q]

Were that simply the case, I'd shoot at the Vatican Bank & work my way back thru history with targets from at least 1870 to 1054, before I'd stop for lunch.

I tend to agree with you. If I were an honest non-Catholic apologist, there are a lot better targets than a moldy old 1302 document.

No, realy... I've heard a dozen definitions & two dozen non definitions. One undisputable, unquestionable, one infallible (lol) definition would suffice, And the Vatican didn;t HAVE one until about 1870, so let's not pretend this is about me having gas over targeting complexities. How Protestant do you think I am?

Not sure, Rick. I know from your posts that you were raised Catholic, are no longer Catholic, and have a lot of in depth knowledge on history and theology. I try to use the Protestant designation as a functional description, so someone who protests is a protestant, just like someone in combat is a combatant.

That's OK, I take it personaly anyway, but I'm made of titanium/steel alloy shell, encasing a cold granite heart.
How easy to grok is that def, tho? Will it fit on a bumpersticker, 'cause if it did, people would know it & that wouldn't be problem. Is it too cryptic or do you soppose that people in general are just to apathetic or brain numbed to have this as common as the knowlege that the RCC &/or the EO is the one infallably true Church? Do you see how that in spite of any hedged definition, the force & momentum of infallability escape the confines of the definition & create an aura of invincible truthiness that enhances the glow of each 3 Catholicisms? Can you see how huge a problem that is for a new convert who has to pick a congregation to attend?

I totally agree with you on this. For centuries, the dogma was more lived than documented. Now we have an era of science that has created an atmosphere where everything must be defined and labeled. So the Church at Vatican I came up with a formal definition; but they missed an opportunity (due mainly to the Piedmont army overrunning the Vatican) to also create a mechanism to judge what was infallible. It wasn't until John Paul II gave the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith the final say in what is considered infallible that we had such a mechanism. It took me a bit of study to come to enough understanding of the issue to have an opinion; but there are Catholics that have a different opinion. Maybe one day we will have a formal list.

All techinal definitions & fine print aside, power perceived is power achieved, and the famous quote "Power corrupts, & absolute power corrupts absolutely." was by a highly respected Roman Catholic about the Infallability doctrin.
Back atchya, bro.

Lord Acton's famous quote about absolute power is one of the most used quotes; but I had to laugh when I studied the context of when he said it. He must have thought that the Popes would be issuing infallible decrees right and left. In truth, that absolute power has only been used once since he said it 142 years ago.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay. A pius opinion. That pun works, right?

Nothing pious about schism

 

[Standing Up]

Nothing pious about schism

Come on in, the water's fine

 

[MoreCoffee]

Come on in, the water's fine

You'll be singing a different tune when the water gets cold

 

[bbbbbbb]

You'll be singing a different tune when the water gets cold

I suppose better cold than hot.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee Nothing pious about schism

Come on in, the water's fine

You'll be singing a different tune when the water gets cold

I suppose better cold than hot.

Just wear some long johns under a wet suit

 

[steve_bakr]

Were that simply the case, I'd shoot at the Vatican Bank & work my way back thru history with targets from at least 1870 to 1054, before I'd stop for lunch.
No, realy... I've heard a dozen definitions & two dozen non definitions. One undisputable, unquestionable, one infallible (lol) definition would suffice, And the Vatican didn;t HAVE one until about 1870, so let's not pretend this is about me having gas over targeting complexities. How Protestant do you think I am?

That's OK, I take it personaly anyway, but I'm made of titanium/steel alloy shell, encasing a cold granite heart.
How easy to grok is that def, tho? Will it fit on a bumpersticker, 'cause if it did, people would know it & that wouldn't be problem. Is it too cryptic or do you soppose that people in general are just to apathetic or brain numbed to have this as common as the knowlege that the RCC &/or the EO is the one infallably true Church? Do you see how that in spite of any hedged definition, the force & momentum of infallability escape the confines of the definition & create an aura of invincible truthiness that enhances the glow of each 3 Catholicisms? Can you see how huge a problem that is for a new convert who has to pick a congregation to attend?

All techinal definitions & fine print aside, power perceived is power achieved, and the famous quote "Power corrupts, & absolute power corrupts absolutely." was by a highly respected Roman Catholic about the Infallability doctrin.
Back atchya, bro.

The usual suspects with the usual mudslinging arguments.

 

[Standing Up]

I suppose better cold than hot.

Cold or hot, just not lukewarm

 

[bbbbbbb]

Cold or hot, just not lukewarm

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just wear some long johns under a wet suit

<chuckle chuckle at picture>

 

[Rick Otto]

The usual suspects with the usual mudslinging arguments.

Give me some advice.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by steve_bakr The usual suspects with the usual mudslinging arguments.

Give me some advice.

Mud wrestling can be quite entertaining

Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest,
whose waves cast up mire and mud.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Jesus vs the Pharisees

Jhn 9:15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight.
"He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed and now I see."

 

[steve_bakr]

Give me some advice.

I had a bad night last night. I fear that my beloved Mentor in the Catholic Church may pass away soon of a blood disorder, and I am a bit distraught. My post was neither a good contribution nor respectful. Sorry, Rick.

 

[steve_bakr]

Mud wrestling can be quite entertaining

Isa 57:20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea, which cannot rest,
whose waves cast up mire and mud.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Jesus vs the Pharisees

Jhn 9:15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight.
"He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed and now I see."

The sense of humor of LLoJ can be refreshing.

 

[Albion]

I had a bad night last night. I fear that my beloved Mentor in the Catholic Church may pass away soon of a blood disorder, and I am a bit distraught. My post was neither a good contribution nor respectful. Sorry, Rick.

Oh no! Is this the deacon you've spoken of several times?

 

[steve_bakr]

Oh no! Is this the deacon you've spoken of several times?

Yes, Albion, it is my deacon--Deacon Jim. He has taught me a non-triumphalist Catholicism that seeks common ground with Protestants. I have not always done that, as I should, but his teaching has inspired in me that ideal. I appreciate your concern.

 

[Albion]

Yes, Albion, it is my deacon--Deacon Jim. He has taught me a non-triumphalist Catholicism that seeks common ground with Protestants. I have not always done that, as I should, but his teaching has inspired in me that ideal. I appreciate your concern.

I am very sorry to learn of this development.

 

[steve_bakr]

I am very sorry to learn of this development.

Thank you, Albion.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Non-triumphalist" wow. Sounds radical In a positive way.
Sorry to hear about your friend.