If we were talking about murder instead of abortion, would you defend a person's right to choose to commit murder, though you personally recognized it was wrong? If you say no, does that mean you don't believe in free will?
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Pro-Choice Versus Pro-Life
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If we were talking about murder instead of abortion, would you defend a person's right to choose to commit murder, though you personally recognized it was wrong? If you say no, does that mean you don't believe in free will?
You should probably look up the word "slander". Because you're just embarrassing yourself by using it when it doesn't apply.
Lol. Ah youth...
Ok, Piece by piece...
"...under "atheism"/"naturalism" there is no immaterial"
Hey, you got that right!
"no morals. how can it be wrong without God?"
Bzzzzt. Demonstrably false. Morals don't depend on a god or gods existing. I know lots of atheists, and they all have moral frameworks. Why something is "wrong" depends on the framework you choose. Most of the people I know, religious and non-religious, use some form of situational ethics, with other frameworks underlying that.
Everyone's morals (including your own) are a product of nature/nurture/reasoning, most likely in that order of importance. Our evolution as pack animals probably shapes most of our moral intuitions
"rape doesn't cause physical harm, it causes Mental/Spiritual harm which causes physical harm(Dualism once again proven)"
Bzzzzt. Demonstrably false. Although studies seem to be all over the place, what I've quickly researched shows that between 25-50% of rape victims have some sort of physical injury. Now, you could be a gigantic weasel and say the that physical harm was separate from the rape, but that would make you, you know, a gigantic weasel. Add to that the number of women that receive an STD from an assault, and you'll see that rape definitely can cause physical harm.
Oh, and the dualism line made me laugh.
"and in "macro-evolution" would be a tool."
Bzzzzt. Demonstrably false. Whether or not unwilling copulation (rape is probably the wrong term to use but I don't know) is a tool in nature to pass along genetic material is immaterial to the discussion about rape in humans. Evolution has no "purpose" and no "direction", so any talk about what we "ought" to allow based on evolution suffers from the naturalistic fallacy. Social Darwinism has absolutely nothing to do with evolutionary biology.
"However under "atheism" it would be Spiritually/Mentally no different than burping at the dinner table,"
Bzzzzt. Demonstrably false. I don't know a single atheist that doesn't categorize actions as more or less "wrong" in the moral framework they use. However, I know Christians that say all sins are equal, which would make your statement true for them.
Oh, and you can just shorten "Spiritually/Mentally" to just "Mentally" when talking about atheists. But I'm sure you already knew that.
"but obviously that false since rape is objectively wrong and perverse, therefore "atheism" is false."
Bzzzzt. Demonstrably false. Atheism is the disbelief in gods. It has nothing to do with moral concepts. You also can't show that rape is objectively, rather than subjectively "wrong", not that it's pertinent to your argument.
Ok, that's it. "Destroy" away...
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If someone believes they should have the right to kill in self defense would you consider them pro murder?
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Freodin
Devout believer in a theologically different God
Here also: different situation.
We can try to bring all these examples to some "lowest common denominator"... and we would see comparisons like that arising: self-defence or murder.
But this situation is unique. There is no other situation in human experience, where two human beings (and I use this as a very general term) are so intensly intwined and the personhood of one of them is highly doubtful.
No other situation where a human being is completely dependent on the bodily function of a different human, but has itself not the means or attributes to excert something like "free will".
As long as there is no way of ensuring the continued existence of this unformed human without the cooperation of the mother, I'd say there is no other way than to leave the decision with her.
Perhaps instead of debating about the judical ways to force human persons to support a life within them against their will, the pro-life faction should ensure that scientific research is undertaken to find other means to meet this their goal.
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GoldenBoy89
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They lifted prohibition on alcohol because they realized it did more damage than good to society. People kept right drinking regardless of the law and it created an underground, highly profitable market for the mob. A prohibition on abortion would only lead to the same consequences. An underground, black market for medical practices already established, that's just what America needs. Not to mention the sanitary aspect of illegal abortion. Also the increase in court trials and prison population over something relatively benign. I'm gladly pro-choice and you may think of me what you will, I don't really care as the case is already settled. Pro lifers are the ones with the burden of proving some kind of immorality on behalf of doctors or women in support of abortion.
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Were talking about a life here and you are comparing it to prohibition? Pro lifers will never be able to prove anything to those that don't believe in the sanctity of life or the morality that God sets forth. those that don't believe live by their own sense of right and wrong and do what is right in their own eyes.
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Why not? It should be fairly obvious that not everyone thinks a fetus' life is as sacred as you do. So why not compare it to Prohibition? Both (potentially) involve situations where something popular is outlawed, and the n=1 we have of Prohibition (and prostitution, I guess) suggests that outlawing abortion will not really reduce the rate of abortions; all it will do is drive it underground, where there are no mechanisms to regulate safety, quality, etc.
That's because you haven't really shown that God's morality (1) came from God, and (2) is something we should specifically follow just because it came from God.
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You don't know who God is, I do, and what you are saying is disgusting
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Okay. That's your opinion, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm willing to concede that this is an expected reaction.
You still haven't actually addressed my points though.
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We both know that you can't prove there isn't a God and I can't prove beyond a doubt that there is. But our morals are written on our heart. And I get so sick and tired of watching unbelievers send themselves to hell. It hurts me to see it.
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This has nothing to do with whether God exists or not, and for the purposes of this discussion (and only for the purposes of this discussion) I can work under the assumption that a God exists, if it makes things easier. So, without the obstacle of proving that a God exists, please address my points above.
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