Romney or Obama?

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Dave Ellis

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That is an obvious gross misstatement. If we were worthless, God would not trouble Himself with salvation.

Your post here is the refutation to your claim to be merely debating. There is no way you are unfamiliar with the literally HUNDREDS of verses in the Bible about love, human value, and forgiveness. You are choosing, purposefully, to be both obtuse and offensive, all the while smiling and claiming to be sincere in your wish to discuss things politely.

That is just breathtakingly evil.


So, if we are indeed worthy, then why do we need to be redeemed? Why is Jesus needed?

If God thinks we're all hunky-dory, then it shouldn't be a problem getting into heaven just as we are... Jesus then becomes irrelevant.

Your religion (or at least major sects within your religion) teaches we are flawed and not worthy of God, and without Jesus we will burn in hell for all eternity. If we have value to your God, why would he toss us in a fire pit?

So please, drop the crap... I've heard everything I write about from Christians, I'm not just making this stuff up off the top of my head. You can't possibly be ignorant to the point that you can claim this isn't taught on a fairly widespread basis within your own religion either.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Again, this phrase, "worthless sinner". You will not find it in any Bible I have ever heard of. Sinner means you made mistakes. Worthless means there is no value to you at all. These two ideas are not united in Christianity as they are in Dave Ellis' mind.


It's taught that we are born into sin... therefore sinner does not mean we make mistakes, as newborn babies have not had any opportunity to make a mistake.

And by worthless, I am referring to the "not worthy" aspect, as in we are not worthy of God's grace and whatnot, which is also a widespread belief among many Christian sects..... and they go on to say that's how loving God is, because he loves us when we don't deserve it, etc.

You can't possibly argue that kind of thing is not said on a regular basis
 
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Dave Ellis

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Not so, in my opinion. God gives us worth. If God finds us worthwhile, really, who are we to argue?

Ah, IN YOUR OPINION.... you see, that's the problem with doctrines. You are basing things off your own morality, and that is in conflict with the actual doctrine.

I should note, I applaud you for this, as your view is better than the doctrine. However, both are still ultimately incorrect

I think you are taking it too far, and playing into the hands of God's enemies with that statement. I would be careful of putting words in God's mouth.

Putting words in God's Mouth? You seem to do an awful lot of that as well... not to mention putting words in other peoples mouths too.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I'm attacking YOU?

Yes, you are.

I've addressed the only point you have ad nauseum. The Bible does not teach that to sin is to become utterly worthless. It teaches that sin leads to death, but God so loved you that he Gave his only begotten son for you.

Joey disagrees with you, as do many more Christians.

And as for your last point... so you are claiming that God sacrificed himself to himself, to create a loophole around a law that he invented, to correct a flawed being made by a perfect, omnipotent, omniscient being.

... yeah, makes complete sense to me.

If you don't think people are evil, look around.

I never claimed there aren't evil people.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Stealing a man is a death penalty offense. You are taking the verses I gave you out of context, as if your political views lead men any less surely to slavery, and often to injury or death.

If slavery in the O.T. is what you say, then why if a slave runs away are they to just let him go, as the verse I cited makes clear?

You are being both dishonest and insulting at the same time.


Dishonest and insulting? I quoted the exact verses that back up my case.

Slavery is clearly condoned within the bible, and instructions on how to treat slaves, and even the values you can sell them at are contained within the book.

Stealing another man is a capital offense... Selling slaves are not.

If you argue this point, you are pointing out one of the clear contradictions in the bible.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Oh, and Dave Ellis leaves out the verse that says Masters should treat their slaves like brothers.......

Yeah, that was the norm back in Rome.


Because brothers sell each other, consider each other property, drive spikes through each others ears and beat each other severely... as long as they don't die within a couple days.

And slaves were not treated that way in Rome... unskilled slaves lived very hard lives under very bad conditions and usually died quite young as a result. They were not considered people, and had no rights.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Ellis is saying that Christianity teaches all of mankind is worthless, and therefore it promotes morally bankrupt behavior. You basically look as if you are chiming in to agree with him. THAT'S not wise.

I never made that case at all... I simply said Christianity teaches we are worthless / not worthy.

I never tied that to promoting morally bankrupt behaviour, those are your words.
 
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Dave Ellis

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We will start here:
an important aspect of our system of government is that it is based on the rule of law. this concept is a direct descendant of Hebrew law and the ten commandments and along with the concept of unalienable rights from God these concepts helped ensure a way of life that respects the dignity of all.



This is false... the US justice system is descended from English Common Law, which was based before it on Roman Law.

And the 10 commandments certainly do not form the basis of the legal system... only two commandments (dont kill and don't steal) are against United States law, and both concepts predate the ten commandments by centuries.

Other commandments go directly against the constitution, or are non-starters when it comes to the basis of society.
 
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JustMeSee

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families are too close to see the truth

But who knows you better than God and your family?

the united nation is going to make sure obama wins

I have a strong feeling Romney is going to win. I haven't heard anything about the United Nations manipulating the election.
 
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Dave Ellis

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And another: the men who wrote the constitution believed the christian idea that man is basically sinful. Our founding fathers understood this. As a result the founders built into the constitution an elaborate system of checks and balances. this is evident in the horizontal plane of executive, legislative and judicial branches and the vertical plane of federalism. (states power vs federal powers}


That has nothing to do with being sinful, that has to do with preventing someone taking over government and proclaiming themselves the king or whatnot.

I don't believe in the concept of sin, but if I was creating a government, I'd put those same checks and balances in place....

Therefore, unless you have specific documentation that shows Sin was their motivation, then you are making a baseless claim.
 
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