If the two candidates with a realistic chance of winning were...

Paradoxum

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Some? He's a textbook fascist. I'm not saying that as a cheap insult, I'm actually serious. The issue at hand in our country is that we're in more danger of falling further into fascism as long as people are buying it under the guise of liberal rhetoric. I wonder how crazy about Obama people would be if they woke up to the reality of his policies and recognized them for what they truly are? Those same people weren't having it under Bush and the only reason could be was that their eyes were more open to the danger with someone who claims to be more right-wing.

We've truly been on that road since FDR, as he modeled a lot of his New Deal policies on Italian fascism.

Anyway- enough of derailing. Faced with Romney vs. Johnson- it is no contest. I'm voting for Gary Johnson anyway. Given an option of only Obama and Stein- it would have to be Stein (only because I completely agree with her stance on civil liberties).

Calling him a fascist seem to be going a bit far. I really do disagree with some thing he has done, and hasn't done, but I doubt he is that extreme.

As much as I do disagree with Obama on some things, I doubt Romney would be any better.
 
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stamperben

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I'm voting against Obama, period.

But I would dearly love to see other parties gain strength and knock the power away from the Republicrats and the Democricans.
And I can fully agree with the second half of this post. :thumbsup:
 
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seashale76

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I'm familiar with the concept of corporatism and Third Position economics. It does not strike me as what we're doing, though.

Right, but it's still capitalism. Regulated capitalism is still capitalism.
Wrong. We have a mixed economy that isn't capitalist or socialist. This is the fascist compromise between the two. I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it- but- as I've said- our country has gone to great lengths to avoid the 'f' word in connotation with anything we do.

If you're referring to the bank bailouts, that's Keynesian stimulus, isn't it? My immediate guess is that the fascist state either nationalizes banks entirely or places such overwhelming restrictions on them that they are in essence controlled by the state. Unless I'm living under a rock right now, that is not even close to what's happening in the United States.
The man is pushing for government control of the economy that still leaves private ownership. These bailouts are fascist to the core. This is essentially the very definition of economic fascism. It's what Obama wants. GM wanted out and they have been told they're not allowed to buy out the government stakes. Even the Affordable Care Act leans toward fascism. It isn't socialized medicine. Ron Paul nailed it when he referred to it as, "corporate medicine leaning toward fascism".

Authoritarianism is not exclusive to fascism.
No, but it is a good indicator of it creeping in. The NDAA, Patriot Act, and other executive orders that have been signed are certainly pointing in that direction. Our civil liberties are at stake. Surveillance of Americans has gone up drastically in the last two years. We are losing our constitutional rights and have been for a while. America is becoming more of a police state.

ACLU forces government to reveal skyrocketing surveillance stats | Ars Technica

Obama Justifies FEMA imprisonment of civilians! - YouTube

What? Parts of the population, sure, but the country itself has fetishized "liberty" and other such things far more than its ever courted fascism.

Besides, I always associate the term more with Mussolini's Italy than anything.
People do fetishize 'liberty' but what we have had, since at least FDR, are policies modeled directly from Italian fascism. FDR was a huge admirer of Italian fascism. The trend has continued through the years. Obama is not an exception.
Here's a great article that delves into the history.
The Rise of American Fascism

Let's go ahead and assume he's a supporter of corporatist or third position economics for a moment. That doesn't make him a fascist. It might make him some sort of social democrat, but not a fascist. Fascism is about a lot more than just economic policy; he doesn't fit the bill in a myriad of other ways. The first things that pop into my head are the lack of palingenetic nationalism or the fact that he pushes for LGBT rights.
Yes, it is about more than economic policy. However, one can be a fascist without the Hitler, kill everyone not Aryan fixation. It isn't an ideology that has remained stagnant since the 1930s, and there are other forms of fascism in this world. But, let's not get caught up in what people 'say', let's focus on what they 'do'. Abortion has always been about population control and eugenics. The idea now is to have people willing to not reproduce on their own- and it is surprisingly more successful than forcing that idea ever was. It's not really about race these days. It's more about we're all Americans and anyone who isn't with the federal government's idea of what an American should be will have their civil rights violated. Let's say, Muslims, constitutionalists, and militias, for example. They're terrorists and un-American. They should be indefinitely detained.

Obama is all about ending class divisions, yet also favors the 'proletarian culture' as the goal for national unity. Did you not notice the strange anti-union stance lately of the Democrats during the Chicago teacher strike? While more pro-union than the Republicans, I was rather shocked at the implications. This is also a fascist thing- as fascism sees such union activities as detrimental to society.

Don't forget his idea of promoting a 'civilian security force' as a way to motivate people toward this national unity idea. While he didn't start City Year, it has been promoted heavily under the Obama admin.
Obama's Militaristic Youth Corp Commercial - YouTube

Then there's the militarization, drones, etcetera. Guantanamo Bay is still open. The MIC is still going strong. What he says and does don't match.

I've never heard a fascist support neoliberal globalization.
Seriously? Never? Globalists are those who are in charge and have a vested interest in corporations. Corporations have more rights than people. These folks run everything- even Obama. You can't get in the club to be a puppet unless you're one of them. Do you realize how many American corporations were started by fascist sympathizers who played both sides of WWII and benefitted from it?

More people need to become aware of what fascism is. The US has even promoted this notion all throughout the ME for a while now. However, we don't use the 'f' word, so I suppose that makes it alright. The US sees itself as being superior and needing to spread that around the world. Look at any political compass on the internet. The US Democrats and Republicans are both on the top right square (i.e. right leaning and authoritarian leaning).
 
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Redac

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Wrong. We have a mixed economy that isn't capitalist or socialist. This is the fascist compromise between the two. I'm surprised more people aren't aware of it- but- as I've said- our country has gone to great lengths to avoid the 'f' word in connotation with anything we do.
Fascist corporatism isn't the same thing as a mixed economy. The mixed economy incorporates elements of state intervention into an otherwise capitalist system. The means of production are more or less still privately owned and are being operated to produce a profit. Capitalism isn't just "free market or it's not capitalism", it's about how parts of society relate to the means of production. The capitalist mode of production is still alive and well in the United States.

The man is pushing for government control of the economy that still leaves private ownership. These bailouts are fascist to the core.
Economic stimulus and bailouts are not fascist in nature; they're Keynesian. The fascist state probably does not give a taxpayer-subsidized loan to the auto industry or the financial sector; it would likely nationalize the auto industry if it has shown itself incapable of private ownership, and most likely would have nationalized the banks as well.

This is essentially the very definition of economic fascism. It's what Obama wants.
Never mind that Bush was the one who signed TARP, not Obama.

No, but it is a good indicator of it creeping in. The NDAA, Patriot Act, and other executive orders that have been signed are certainly pointing in that direction. Our civil liberties are at stake. Surveillance of Americans has gone up drastically in the last two years. We are losing our constitutional rights and have been for a while. America is becoming more of a police state.
It's not necessarily an indication of fascism. Heck, Pinochet repressed the people of Chile to a great extent, but there is no way he could be described as a fascist.


Yes, it is about more than economic policy. However, one can be a fascist without the Hitler, kill everyone not Aryan fixation.
Of course. Fascism isn't exclusive to Nazi silliness.

Abortion has always been about population control and eugenics. The idea now is to have people willing to not reproduce on their own- and it is surprisingly more successful than forcing that idea ever was. It's not really about race these days. It's more about we're all Americans and anyone who isn't with the federal government's idea of what an American should be will have their civil rights violated. Let's say, Muslims, constitutionalists, and militias, for example. They're terrorists and un-American. They should be indefinitely detained.
Abortion is eugenics? I'm just going to leave this aside for now. Maybe I'll address it when I'm not so dang tired.

Obama is all about ending class divisions, yet also favors the 'proletarian culture' as the goal for national unity.
I'm not quite sure what you're asserting here. I mean, a fascist state is about class collaboration between capitalist and worker in the interest of the state as a whole. It doesn't attempt to end class divisions, it just reconciles the two classes by giving them something they can share.

Did you not notice the strange anti-union stance lately of the Democrats during the Chicago teacher strike? While more pro-union than the Republicans, I was rather shocked at the implications. This is also a fascist thing- as fascism sees such union activities as detrimental to society.
I didn't pay much attention to the Chicago strike.

But, besides that, anti-union sentiment is one of those things that is not exclusive to fascism. For example, the union-busting activity of the late 19th century cannot be construed as some sort of road to fascism. The bourgeois tolerates unions, but because unions often stand in the way of profit, they will work to diminish their power whenever possible.

Don't forget his idea of promoting a 'civilian security force' as a way to motivate people toward this national unity idea. While he didn't start City Year, it has been promoted heavily under the Obama admin.
Obama's Militaristic Youth Corp Commercial - YouTube
Describing that as something put out and promoted by Obama as a "civilian security force" seems a stretch at best. City Year is an organization that targets at-risk youth and tries to fight against the high dropout rate in poor areas through community service and such things. It's not "a way to motivate people" to get behind some sort of nationalist sense of unity.

Then there's the militarization, drones, etcetera. Guantanamo Bay is still open. The MIC is still going strong. What he says and does don't match.
None of which is means he's a fascist.

Seriously? Never?
Really. Economic globalization of the sort we're seeing is eroding national and ethnic identity and heritage in many parts of the world in the name of creating wealth for those at the top. It's a globalized capitalist initiative.

Fascists would not support it not only because fascism is an anti-capitalist ideology, but because they place great importance on the preservation and advancement of their particular ethnic nation (not like Nazis did, obviously).

Globalists are those who are in charge and have a vested interest in corporations. Corporations have more rights than people.
You seem to be looking at neoliberalism and calling it fascism.

These folks run everything- even Obama. You can't get in the club to be a puppet unless you're one of them. Do you realize how many American corporations were started by fascist sympathizers who played both sides of WWII and benefitted from it?
See, now you're starting to contradict yourself. If Obama is a fascist, how then is he a puppet of these corporations? Note that these are not corporation in the fascist or corporatist sense; these are corporations in the capitalist, for-profit sense.

The fascist state does not allow the corporate organs of society (let alone capitalist corporations) to control it; in fact, it's quite the opposite. Mussolini's maxim describes it quite well:
Benito Mussolini said:
Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato
Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.

You can't claim that corporations have the state in their pocket and then call that fascism, because that's simply not what it is. A fascist nation generally will not have any qualms about quite brutally putting down a business or organization that it deems a threat to the state.

More people need to become aware of what fascism is.
Indeed.
 
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Genersis

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In order of presidential candidate i'm most inclined to vote for:
Jill Stein
Rocky Anderson
Barack Obama
Gary Johnson
Mitt Romney

Party platform-wise:
Green Party.
Justice Party.
Democratic Party.
Libertarian Party.
Republican Party.
Constitution Party.

I was going to post a similar thread a while back, but then a lot of crap happened.
 
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seashale76

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@Redac: I don't have the time to keep this back and forth thing going with you. Sorry, I really don't. My understanding isn't flawed here. I'll leave you with this: The two main US parties have extremely fascist tendencies. I'm not the first person to see the connection and I won't be the last. A lot of people have seen it. We're moving further along the fascist road every day. Don't buy into the Democrat/Republican false paradigm. There truly is very little difference between the two. It's bread and circuses- political theater. Do your research. Don't just google things like 'third position' after you see something you want to disagree with to find talking points against mine. Neoliberalism/Globalization is fascism on a global scale. Yes. It really is. Mixed economics is an inherently fascist solution- Keynesian economics is favored by fascists. I noticed that you tried to separate it out- but it really hasn't been in practice. Americans ignore the 'f' word when it comes down to it- but that doesn't make the truth go away.

Yet another link (you should go back and read the ones I posted earlier if you haven't):
What will replace the Constitution in Americans’ hearts? Let’s check for Fascism. « Fabius Maximus
 
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Redac

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@Redac: I don't have the time to keep this back and forth thing going with you. Sorry, I really don't.
Understandable if you're genuinely too busy to debate. If it's just an excuse to stop, well...

I'm going to assume it's the former.

My understanding isn't flawed here.
It really is.

I'll leave you with this: The two main US parties have extremely fascist tendencies. I'm not the first person to see the connection and I won't be the last. A lot of people have seen it.
A lot of people claim to see ghosts or to have been abducted by UFOs. That doesn't mean what they think they see is accurate.

We're moving further along the fascist road every day. Don't buy into the Democrat/Republican false paradigm. There truly is very little difference between the two. It's bread and circuses- political theater.
Okay then.

Do your research. Don't just google things like 'third position' after you see something you want to disagree with to find talking points against mine.
Please don't condescend to me like I'm some kind of idiot. I've read the Doctrine of Fascism before, I've engaged in discussions about this subject with fascists before. I've read plenty of other discussions on fascist economics. I'm not sitting here googling terms with which I am completely unfamiliar merely for the sake of disagreeing.

Neoliberalism/Globalization is fascism on a global scale. Yes. It really is.
No, it truely isn't. Fascism opposes neoliberal globalization on the grounds that it erodes and otherwise destroys national identity. I already went over this.

Mixed economics is an inherently fascist solution
Still false, no matter how many times you say it.

- Keynesian economics is favored by fascists.
This just says to me that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I noticed that you tried to separate it out- but it really hasn't been in practice. Americans ignore the 'f' word when it comes down to it- but that doesn't make the truth go away.
I separate the two because they are different ideologies that are at odds with one another.

Yet another link (you should go back and read the ones I posted earlier if you haven't):
What will replace the Constitution in Americans’ hearts? Let’s check for Fascism. « Fabius Maximus

Blog posts like this generally do not interest me.

Even if your economic analysis were correct (and it most certainly is not), there are much deeper foundations to fascist thought that have to be in place as well. The liberalization of the world's markets does not even begin to approach what fascism is or what it proposes. Your understanding of the term and the ideology is really quite flawed.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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I'm still going to write in Daffy Duck--

Donald?

King-Donald-donald-duck-8785904-687-644.jpg
 
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seashale76

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@redac: See- I think your understanding of the term and ideology is the one that is really quite flawed- as I think your position on this stems entirely from one of denial and that you have a complete willingness to accept what you're presented from the mainstream political establishment. I don't think you see the big picture. However- I recognized the futility of indulging your apparent need for arguing- and was attempting to leave and not be further goaded into a debate about it with you. You can essentially say 'nuh-uh', I'm right and you're wrong' all evening long- but it won't change the fact that I don't agree with you and that my position has merit. I was willing to explain my position, but you really wanted to 'school me' and 'correct me' and then get upset when I turned around and held my position just as strongly as you did yours and inferred the same as you- that it is you who doesn't have a complete understanding. Your points are not convincing. You want an argument and want to feel like a winner. Plus- I really do have other things I've been putting off that I need to do.
 
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Redac

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@redac: See- I think your understanding of the term and ideology is the one that is really quite flawed-
Of course you do.

as I think your position on this stems entirely from one of denial and that you have a complete willingness to accept what you're presented from the mainstream political establishment.
My position stems from the desire to stop seeing words like "fascist" and "socialist" and all the other popular ones misused to describe something that it is not. Calling Obama a fascist is just as annoying to me as calling him a commie.

Besides, my views are hardly mainstream, and I'm not sure why you think you've got me pegged so well that you can read my motives over the Internet.

I don't think you see the big picture.
I'm starting to have just as much a problem with what's going on in the world, but I suspect that my analysis and my approach to it are going to be considerably different from yours.

However- I recognized the futility of indulging your apparent need for arguing- and was attempting to leave and not be further goaded into a debate about it with you.
You can bow out whenever you want, but it would do you well to stop trying to psychoanalyze me.

You can essentially say 'nuh-uh', I'm right and you're wrong' all evening long-
If by "nuh-uh" you mean supporting my assertions with key concepts of fascist doctrine, then yeah.

but it won't change the fact that I don't agree with you and that my position has merit.
You can claim all you want that your position has merit, but your arguments don't seem to bear witness to that claim.

I was willing to explain my position, but you really wanted to 'school me' and 'correct me'
Do you expect me to agree with your errors?

and then get upset when I turned around and held my position just as strongly as you did yours and inferred the same as you- that it is you who don't have a complete understanding.
I'm upset? Wow, I wish someone would have let me know sooner.

Your points are not convincing. You want an argument and want to feel like a winner.
Projecting.jpg


Plus- I really do have other things I've been putting off that I need to do.
Vabbè, arrivederci.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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As for the actual thread topic, I'd give Jill Stein and perhaps Rocky Anderson some serious consideration if one of them was the main challenger to Obama. Otherwise, just Obama.

A Johnson vs Romney race? Ugh, no thanks.

I've actually been quite impressed with Stein on a number of levels...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Did you see my Jill Stein email, Easy G?
Was aware of it (as seen in #181 )---although it really didn't seem significant as it concerns where she stands/what she has to offer, IMHO. I kept up with her information primarily from her own website/platform and the discussions on "Democracy Now!" featuring her in sharing her stances, from her thoughts on the live debates to other programs she was involved in and her social activism. ...and other places besides that (more shared earlier here in #236 as well as here and here ).
 
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