What is a 'graven image' and why are we NOT to create them?

[strangertoo]

God is not an object of love.
What kind of object god would be?
God is love itself

The scripture explains what 'Love of God' is :-

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

and His commandment is to Love all folks, even one's enemies

so we show Love of Love itself [which is God] BY our Love of all, even our 'enemies', even those that abuse us , even kill us...

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him

 

[sculleywr]

Yeah well, sculleywr, I've been here for 5 years now, been down this road of converation many many many many (many) times before, whether it be of traaditions, concrete arts, flat arts, Mary and every other generic kick a dead horse debate, just not interested.

Just like the gnostic accusation to provoke into a response, its really just how it goes around here, until someone says, Im just not interested in your whole spin on things, I've already heard it before from practically everyside (and many years) and I'm just not into the manner of communications.

So do have the last word, and I'll unsubscribe myself, because I have better things to do.

Iwould rather have the faith th martyrs died for rather tha something new

 

[Imagican]

The Icons are not the ones listening. The prototypes are. Example: Icon of Christ. He is always listening. The Icon simply gives us a focusing point on the Christ.

Ok, but IF Christ LIVES IN YOUR HEART, what NEED is there for FOCUS?

So YOU are saying that A FALSE IMAGE gives you FOCUS. I say that such focus is on a FALSE IMAGE and therefore isn't REALLY any such thing as TRUE focus. For how do you find the focus on the TRUTH by bowing and praying to a FALSE IMAGE?

MEC

 

[motherprayer]

Ok, but IF Christ LIVES IN YOUR HEART, what NEED is there for FOCUS?

Exactly! I have always felt that images made for Christians to pray to are not only inaccurate, but that they also create a stumbling block, a barrier between a person and Christ.

 

[hybrid]

Yes. Idols make people think that god is somewher else instead of inside of you

 

[Imagican]

And that is WHY God gave the commandment to His Children. To KEEP them from stumbling by creating GRAVEN IMAGES to be worshiped.

Now it's only a matter of discernment so far as the meaning of 'worship' that completes understanding.

NO, we NEED no IMAGES to bow to in order to Worship God or His Son. Since we CANNOT accurately MAKE such an image, it is obvious that any such attempts are ONLY able to create FALSE IMAGES.

And the Bible is SPECIFIC about WOOD, or METAL or CEMENT, (there was no PLASTIC back then and men didn't know how to manipulate GLASS as they do today, but there is NO DIFFERENCE. Wook, metal, cement, plastic or PLUTONIUM, we are instructed NOT to make GRAVEN IMAGES, PERIOD. Not of their OWN DESIGNS.

For He KNEW how the 'adversary' would USE his influence to TEACH THEM to worship them. So, instead of leaving it up to MEN to make such decisions ON THEIR OWN, He gave them instruction NOT TO DO IT AT ALL.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[sculleywr]

And that is WHY God gave the commandment to His Children. To KEEP them from stumbling by creating GRAVEN IMAGES to be worshiped.

Now it's only a matter of discernment so far as the meaning of 'worship' that completes understanding.

NO, we NEED no IMAGES to bow to in order to Worship God or His Son. Since we CANNOT accurately MAKE such an image, it is obvious that any such attempts are ONLY able to create FALSE IMAGES.

And the Bible is SPECIFIC about WOOD, or METAL or CEMENT, (there was no PLASTIC back then and men didn't know how to manipulate GLASS as they do today, but there is NO DIFFERENCE. Wook, metal, cement, plastic or PLUTONIUM, we are instructed NOT to make GRAVEN IMAGES, PERIOD. Not of their OWN DESIGNS.

For He KNEW how the 'adversary' would USE his influence to TEACH THEM to worship them. So, instead of leaving it up to MEN to make such decisions ON THEIR OWN, He gave them instruction NOT TO DO IT AT ALL.

Blessings,

MEC

He gave us the correct image of God in Christ. He never said do not make images. He said do not make idols. Pecel is idol. Not image.

 

[Imagican]

He gave us the correct image of God in Christ. He never said do not make images. He said do not make idols. Pecel is idol. Not image.

My friend, you KNOW that this is NOT TRUE. It is stated:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Could this be ANY clearer. And could what you offered above be any MORE inaccurate as concerning the TRUTH?

While you can certainly run around in circles as far as translation is concerned, the truth is that it is a central theme offered throughout the Bible.

And not ONLY are 'graven images' able to bring about idolatry, even CONCEPTS and IDEAS are able to be just as idolatrous.

What many have attempted to alter is that God offered that His Children were NOT to MAKE 'graven images'. And that they were not to worship such images. The important difference between what some have chosen to believe is the "AND" in the statement above. There are TWO separate parts to this commandment. DO NOT MAKE GRAVEN IMAGES. DO NOT WORSHIP GRAVEN IMAGES. And all it takes is a rudimentary understanding to plainly SEE WHY. God KNEW that if men were allowed to FREELY create such images that it would LEAD to their worship. The act of MAKING 'graven images' is in and of itself a FORM of worship. It's one thing to spend one's time and efforts making THINGS that they can USE to make their work easier. It's another to make images simply to LOOK at and ADORE. Things to simply POSSESS. For MOST 'graven images' serve NO OTHER PURPOSE. They aren't used to GROW anything. They aren't used to PRODUCE anything. They are about WORTHLESS so far as THE TRUTH is concerned.

But LOOK at the 'value' that men have LEARNED to place upon 'graven images'. While that is the nature of the flesh when influenced by the adversary, it was NEVER meant to be the 'way' of God's Children. We are NOT to allow OBJECTS to influence us SPIRITUALLY. And that is EXACTLY what 'art', (graven images), does.

They also encourage coveting. For how many among us wouldn't give everything we own for an original Van Gogh? For each of us KNOWS that it would be worth many TIMES the value of EVERYTHING we own. That is EXACTLY what is meant by 'to covet'.

I know, many believe that someone must covet something specific. But that is not true. To covet is to simply see something and have a DESIRE to own it. Or even IMAGINE something that desire to HAVE it as one's own. And I'm speaking of ITEMS, 'things', I am NOT speaking of those 'things' that pertain to GOD or His Son.

Colossians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry

So not ONLY is the making of graven images forbidden, but the DESIRE TO OWN them if considered idolatry as well.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[sculleywr]

My friend, you KNOW that this is NOT TRUE. It is stated:

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Could this be ANY clearer. And could what you offered above be any MORE inaccurate as concerning the TRUTH?

While you can certainly run around in circles as far as translation is concerned, the truth is that it is a central theme offered throughout the Bible.

And not ONLY are 'graven images' able to bring about idolatry, even CONCEPTS and IDEAS are able to be just as idolatrous.

What many have attempted to alter is that God offered that His Children were NOT to MAKE 'graven images'. And that they were not to worship such images. The important difference between what some have chosen to believe is the "AND" in the statement above. There are TWO separate parts to this commandment. DO NOT MAKE GRAVEN IMAGES. DO NOT WORSHIP GRAVEN IMAGES. And all it takes is a rudimentary understanding to plainly SEE WHY. God KNEW that if men were allowed to FREELY create such images that it would LEAD to their worship. The act of MAKING 'graven images' is in and of itself a FORM of worship. It's one thing to spend one's time and efforts making THINGS that they can USE to make their work easier. It's another to make images simply to LOOK at and ADORE. Things to simply POSSESS. For MOST 'graven images' serve NO OTHER PURPOSE. They aren't used to GROW anything. They aren't used to PRODUCE anything. They are about WORTHLESS so far as THE TRUTH is concerned.

But LOOK at the 'value' that men have LEARNED to place upon 'graven images'. While that is the nature of the flesh when influenced by the adversary, it was NEVER meant to be the 'way' of God's Children. We are NOT to allow OBJECTS to influence us SPIRITUALLY. And that is EXACTLY what 'art', (graven images), does.

They also encourage coveting. For how many among us wouldn't give everything we own for an original Van Gogh? For each of us KNOWS that it would be worth many TIMES the value of EVERYTHING we own. That is EXACTLY what is meant by 'to covet'.

I know, many believe that someone must covet something specific. But that is not true. To covet is to simply see something and have a DESIRE to own it. Or even IMAGINE something that desire to HAVE it as one's own. And I'm speaking of ITEMS, 'things', I am NOT speaking of those 'things' that pertain to GOD or His Son.

Colossians 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry

So not ONLY is the making of graven images forbidden, but the DESIRE TO OWN them if considered idolatry as well.

Blessings,

MEC

Do not make any "Pecel". I happen to have access to the resources that prove you wrong, you know, a man with doctorates and master's degrees in Hebrew languages, concentrating in the ancient Hebrew.

Pecel means idol. There are no ifs, ands, buts about it. You either accept the Scriptures AS THEY WERE WRITTEN IN HEBREW, or you deny them. Since you deny them in this case, I will assume that the Scriptures mean nothing to you as anything but a tool to fool others with.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Exactly! I have always felt that images made for Christians to pray to are not only inaccurate, but that they also create a stumbling block, a barrier between a person and Christ.

Hmmm, does a picture of my wife on my desk at work, or in my pocket when I deployed create a barrier between us?

 

[motherprayer]

Hmmm, does a picture of my wife on my desk at work, or in my pocket when I deployed create a barrier between us?

Only if your wife is your God

Lol I'm a photographer. Creating beautiful images of people so their families can look at them is my passion. Big difference between pics of the fam and a (likely inaccurate) image of God to bow down before.

 

[hybrid]

Invalid example. Obviously venerating a snake is sinful.

Yep. Sooner or later you'll miss the mark.

 

[hybrid]

The scripture explains what 'Love of God' is :-

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

and His commandment is to Love all folks, even one's enemies

so we show Love of Love itself [which is God] BY our Love of all, even our 'enemies', even those that abuse us , even kill us...

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him

Yep. I believe that the highest form of worship is the expression of unconditional love reflected in the believers life.

No physical or mental images of god required!

 

[hybrid]

Hmmm, does a picture of my wife on my desk at work, or in my pocket when I deployed create a barrier between us?

If you're kissing the picture whilst she's beside you. . . She might get amused hehe

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The author of Exodus wrote in a fashion which people of his time understood. It is obvious that when reading it, 'graven images' is speaking about false gods. There was a god for everything in those times.
As it happens, the people below were worshiping a golden calf at the time of Moses descending from the mountain.

Statues of saints, praying to saints as a mediation, having Jesus mounted on a cross, basilicas, and so on are not idolatrous. In fact, if you say these things are idolatrous, then so is holding your Bible to the sky and wearing a cross on your necklace.
There has to be line drawn, and it is either or. You don't get any 'in between' on what and wasn't idolatry.

 

[sculleywr]

Ok, but IF Christ LIVES IN YOUR HEART, what NEED is there for FOCUS?

So YOU are saying that A FALSE IMAGE gives you FOCUS. I say that such focus is on a FALSE IMAGE and therefore isn't REALLY any such thing as TRUE focus. For how do you find the focus on the TRUTH by bowing and praying to a FALSE IMAGE?

MEC

Prayer and Icons are not for Christ. Does Christ need the prayer? no! Christ can exist without our prayers. Christ can exist without our belief. Prayer is not telling Him anything He doesn't know.

If prayers aren't for Him, then why do we pray? because prayer is for us. Prayer is to remind us that He is there. That is why FOCUS is necessary.

Second, you are seeing only an image, when there is much more than that. Icons are more than just images. In fact, when one is said to make an Icon, he is not said to be painting, but instead to be writing an Icon. Why? Because you are purposefully writing the thousand words that the Icon will say. Your goal, in making an Icon of Christ, is not to make an accurate representation of His physical form. Instead it is to make an accurate representation of the doctrine of Christ. That He is judge holding the gospel in His hand, but extending mercy because of the Gospels. The light coming from behind him (the halo) showing that He is the Light of the World. The Greek abbreviations "IC XC NIKA" commonly on the Icon, stating, "Jesus Christ, victorious!".

The Icons, when we study and learn what they are telling us, give us focus because the prayers teach us what is true about Christ. When we truly focus on what it means to say "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us!", and see this reflected in the earthly reflection of Christ, then we are entered into our own personal prayer requests, for family, friends, health, blessings, prosperity, in the special situations of our life, with awe and reverence.

 

[sculleywr]

Yes. Idols make people think that god is somewher else instead of inside of you

Idols make you think that your god is the idol. Icons make you realize that God is everywhere. That's a big difference

 

[hybrid]

Idols make you think that your god is the idol. Icons make you realize that God is everywhere. That's a big difference

Seeing god in everything is the quintessence of the verse god is in all and all is in god and one of the most profound spiritual realization a believer can experience. So if you put it that way, i have no argument against that although i have some reservations that icons can deliver such a tall order.

 

[sculleywr]

Hybrid, I am working on the explanation for you, but it will take until tomorrow. For tonight, I found an amazingly funny picture Thank you Hyperdox Hermon!

 

[Imagican]

Only if your wife is your God

Lol I'm a photographer. Creating beautiful images of people so their families can look at them is my passion. Big difference between pics of the fam and a (likely inaccurate) image of God to bow down before.

We can't really be sure about the nature of 'photos' and their potential barrier that may create. I know this: There ARE photos that are most certainly SUBVERSIVE. And there are photos that are USED to depict subjects that REQUIRE worship by them that force such images upon their 'people'. We see it all the time in many countries. Where their leader's picture exists in every home, every business and on every billboard or sign.

The Bible tells us that IF we love our sons or daughters MORE than God or Christ, we err. If we love our parents or wives MORE than God or Christ we err.

So how to answer such questions concerning technology that did not exist then must be sought in the PRINCIPLES, not the technology.

I can offer this: If you allow photography to BE something that you worship, then it is probably going to get in the way of your FAITH in God. And if you let PICTURES get in the way of your relationship with God then that would be a hindrance as well.

Look, what God has tried to instruct us since the beginning is how to prevent PROBLEMS in our lives due to our OWN 'flesh'. For the 'flesh' desires that which is PLEASING to the "FLESH". And that is often contradictory to anything pertaining to Spirit. While one's 'spirit' may well be affected, it is difficult to even FIND 'The Spirit' if one is allowing the THINGS OF THIS WORLD to 'get in the way'.

We are also told NOT to fall in LOVE with this world or the THINGS IN IT.

So, is it any surprise that men intent upon making merchandise of others have introduced the MEANS to hamper the relationships of others? That there are 'things' that have been created and are appealing to the FLESH that are detrimental to The Spirit residing in one's heart?

I won't attempt to answer questions that one should be able to answer for themselves so far as photographs. But I will offer this: they are NOT REAL. They ARE images. And no matter what you THINK, you WILL NOT take them with you to the grave. They are nothing but images on pieces of paper. No different than any other image. The subject may vary but the form is the same with any and all.

The Catholic Church decided a long time ago that the command to resist the temptation of creating graven images was ONLY pertaining to 'carvings' or paintings of 'other gods'. They ERRED in their understanding. Because ANYONE that possess a HINT of The Spirit KNOWS that one can make a god out of ANYTHING. Drugs can be the god of the junkie. Money can be the god of those that worship wealth. Man can make a god out of ANYTHING that he worships or adores.

So the commandment was not to resist temptation to create 'carved gods' or 'painted gods', it was a warning to NOT DO exactly what it stated: NO GRAVEN IMAGES. For man was not mature enough to KNOW what images could hold potential damage and which were not.

And it's perfectly CLEAR that anyone that would pay millions of dollars for a painting MUST WORSHIP it to pay that much WEALTH to POSSESS it. And who but the Catholic Church has such a VAST wealth of such ART? So it only stands to reason that IF they erred in their understanding of the commandment, they would teach those that they LORDED over to ignore the commandment as well. Their whole 'religion' is filled with icons, idols, works of 'art'. And LOOK at the numbers of people that travel to Europe just to ADORE their 'churches' full of 'art' or 'graven images'.

While they attempt to label them 'houses of God', the truth is that God NO LONGER dwells within structures MADE BY THE HANDS of MEN. So the whole concept of 'graven images' has been LOST upon the Catholic Church. Sorry. I'm not the one that has LED others to falsely discern the commandment. I am here right now trying to explain it so that others MAY be able to SEE the TRUTH behind the commandment.

And at the same time, there are those of the Protestant denominations that will insist that WE ARE FREE to DO as we PLEASE so long as we SAY we believe in Christ. That NONE of the law pertains to 'Christians'. That it is UP TO US what we believe and follow.

But the TRUTH is that we are not, will not, nor have we EVER been granted such freedom. The Law was given to TEACH men. And those teachings are as relevant today as they were when the law was given. While we are no longer BOUND to the law, (we DO have the choice to FOLLOW as instructed now by those laws being written in our hearts), we are AS bound to that which pertains to LOVE as NEVER before. And that is the LOVE we offer to God and the love that we offer to each other.

And if you let THINGS of this world get in the way of that love then you have ERRED according to ALL the instruction we have been offered by God through prophet, His own Son and the apostles.

Blessings,

MEC