What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?

[P1LGR1M]

its a whole nother topic but every Christian will be baptised in fire also, this fire is seen when we stand before Christ and every work that was built on the foundation of Christ that wasn't of Christ will be burned up some peoples whole ministry will be burned up yet they will escape through the flames......see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

and

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”

Sorry but it is not another "whole different topic," but is foundational to our understanding of salvation.

You mix teachings concerning the two clear choices man will make and the two clear results of that decision, by adding into the mix a completely different teaching where the works of the saints will be judged which does not affect their salvation.

Then, you mix into that teaching concerning the restoration of National Israel, who, at this point, have a veil over their eyes that they cannot receive the truth and then be saved.

My time is limited this morning and I am already using time that is not mine, so I will have to get back to you after I have finished the other response, and, it may be a day or two. In the meanwhile it might be a good idea to take a look at the context of the passages you offer and make sure you actually want to offer them.

God bless.

 

[back2thebible]

Sorry but it is not another "whole different topic," but is foundational to our understanding of salvation.

You mix teachings concerning the two clear choices man will make and the two clear results of that decision, by adding into the mix a completely different teaching where the works of the saints will be judged which does not affect their salvation.

Then, you mix into that teaching concerning the restoration of National Israel, who, at this point, have a veil over their eyes that they cannot receive the truth and then be saved.

My time is limited this morning and I am already using time that is not mine, so I will have to get back to you after I have finished the other response, and, it may be a day or two. In the meanwhile it might be a good idea to take a look at the context of the passages you offer and make sure you actually want to offer them.

God bless.

actually you need to look closer and see that its not an either or scenario

John didn't say you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit OR WITH FIRE

He said you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit AND WITH FIRE

certianly the whole world will be cleansed with fire, and most will end up like the chaff burnt up forever, but we as Christians will also undergo a fire baptism that will remove everything not of Christ.....


the scripture stands true we will be baptised with the Holy Spirit and with fire

we see that this is true from scripture

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

who here do you see being put through a fire, is it not a believer's work that is tested by the fire of God, it says the person undergoing this fire IS SAVED! are you going to argue that the chaff will be saved.

certainly we can see from Johns words the chaff will under go this same fire, but they will not escape through the flames, but this is the baptism of judgement, Its simply John stating that while we receive the wonderful baptism of the Holy Spirit, there will also be the baptism of fire, which all men will pass through, some escaping through the flames, others being burned up as chaff

 

[P1LGR1M]

backtracking a little to the question of why i think it does not happen when one first believes - because when one first believes one is not necessarily at that point born again OF THE SPIRIT -

According to scripture this is incorrect.

One is either born of God or he is a child of the devil, there is not a third group which is "almost" saved.

but having believed- if they obey it is then inevitable -it will happen .

If they do not have the Spirit of God, then they cannot believe...anything concerning the spiritualk things of God.


1 Corinthians 2:11

King James Version (KJV)


11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.



Except that God makes the natural man to understand the word of God, he cannot believe.

It is the convicting work of the Spirit of God which brings man to the point where he believes that which is written, and through that word...believe.

you seem to be sidetracked with the differing events in the book of acts -

You are free to expand on that. And please give the scriptural basis for what is stated.

but tongues is a supernatural gift - it has many expressions .

Lets examine these "expressions:"

it is used miraculously by god to speak to men -

God "speaks in tongues?" Please show this in scripture. It might be better to make the clearer statement that God uses this gift to "speak" to men. It is after all a sign that God is doing a work, for good or judgment, among men.

it is used by God to cause men to pray his perfect will when they do not know how to -

The Lord uses this gift to get men to pray?

Rather, the Lord leads men to pray for a number of reasons, all apart from the gift of tongues. It is the indwelling of God that leads and guides the believer to action, no matter what it is, when it is according to God's will.

Again, please give a scriptural reference.

it is used by God to cause men to intercede in the spirit ..

Scripture?

it is used by God to cause an individual to be edified in their spirit -

So speaking a language one has never learned is for the purpose of self-edification?

Scripture?

Consider:


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)


1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.


In Why would Paul say they should be more concerned with prophesying? Which is, to speak the word and will of God.

Because he has just given two chapters detailing the importance of...accomplishing something. The corollary is that what the Corinthians have been doing...has not been achieving that.

Thus, the rebuke we see here (in this chapter). But if one is predisposed to ignore that rebuke, as well as what is taught in the preceding two chapters, as well as the fact that Paul makes it abundantly clear that speaking which does not convey the will and word of God and is initelligible is meaingless, then one might continue to support their position with what is taught here by Paul.

Notice that Paul is not making a general statement but is contrasting two very different positions:


2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


The contrast here is between those that speak in an unknown tongue (and it might be good to mention for some that the word "unknown," as with all words in the printed KJVs are insertions, not in the original text) and he that prophesieth. While at first glance it might seem to be a good thing not to speak to men, we have to ask ourselves, is this not why the Body has been gifted with speaking gifts, which Paul includes revelation, knowledge, prophesying, and doctrine to included? In other words, all of these must be in agreement. You don't have one without the other.

The former acts in a selfish way which does not edify the Body, while the latter is seen to edify, exhort, and comfort.


4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.



Again the contrast is clear: the former edifies himself, the latter edifies the Church.

To teach that these gifts are for self edification is, in my view, incorrect.


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.


Paul's conclusion is not that "man speak to God, but that he speaks into the air.

There is no audience whatsoever for the speaking the Corinthians are being rebuked for.

If they are speaking unintelligible speech they do not even meet the requirements given to inanimate objects that are supposed to be for an intended purpose, here, the trumpet which must be clearly understood in order to accomplish it's purpose, which is to call men to battle.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

actually you need to look closer and see that its not an either or scenario

John didn't say you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit OR WITH FIRE

He said you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit AND WITH FIRE

And will people also be gathered into His Garner and burned up?

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

it is used by God in what ever way God deems if fit to be used for ..

Now this I agree with.

it does not at any time require our comprehension- only faith .

And this I do not. Again we look at Paul's contrast between what they are doing and what they should be doing, and again he makes a conclusion:


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


...which conclusion being that just as is consistent with the fruit of the Spirit in which we maintain self-control, we do not perform that which excludes our understanding.

It is a basic biblical concept:


Matthew 22:37

King James Version (KJV)


37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.



It is precisely for the reason that men do not incorporate their thinking mind into areas like these that they are led astray. This is why it is vital to measure the teachings presented, not by experience, but by the word of God...and every word of God, for that matter.

now the main reason -as i reiterate often- that i believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost to be a separate event from first believing in the messiah .is that when i received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost it was momentous in my life .

And it is impossible for you to consider that before this event that perhaps you were not saved?

My friend, I am not denying the work of God in your life, I believe it very likely that there has been a change in your walk with the Lord...it happens to all of us. But what I would suggest is that this is natural as we grow in the Lord. We begin to understand better, and thus are able to walk in the Spirit...better.

But scripture does not teach a subsequent "baptism with the Holy Spirit," but the filling of believers.

an all encompassing experience which transformed the entire course of my life ,my nature ,my thought ,my imagination,my comprehension -

And I would not question that.

yet i had been a water baptized christian for many years before -

Since when does water Baptism save one? Since when does church attendance save one?

What is it that saves, but belief itself. How then does belief come about, apart from the Holy Spirit?

And where can we see example in scripture that a man is saved, has been reborn as a Child of God...apart from receiving the indwelling of God?

so i know beyond all intellectual argument that can ever be presented that the promised baptism of the Holy Ghost is the even of openly willingly receiving the Holy Spirit INTO ones self where by he can in-dwell (live inside the temple of his choosing and rule the heart .

In other words, intellectual argument is the dirty word that is used for incorporating thought into faith?

lol

Atheists have also...context.

I would agree in large part with what you say here, just also clarify that this represents salvation for the natural man, not a subsequent event that makes one a more "spiritual" believer.

but NEVER does he force his way in.

In regards to salvation, this could be debated. There are times in which the Lord arranges events for the intent purpose of directing one in His will, that what He intends to accomplish is accomplished. Jonah is a great example of this, where we see an unwilling participant made to perform the will of God.

He does not twist arms to save, but He can arrange events so that the inevitable outcome is understanding, repentance, belief, and salvation.

that is what lting demons and evil spirits do- they gain entrance to a persons life by deceit coercion and beguiling .
they are spirits(evil)

Not always the case. As there are those that open themselves up to demonic activity through the use of alcohol and drugs, which is contrary to that which Paul teaches, which is that we are to be consciously aware at all times, and that we should maintain self-control. The natural man does not consider these to be necessary.

The believer...should.


Continued...

 

[back2thebible]

And will people also be gathered into His Garner and burned up?

God bless.

whats a garner?

 

[P1LGR1M]

the Holy Spirit is A spirit also .. he is the "'Holy" Spirit of God and he desires to indwell us . so by believing in him -we have him - we can also receive him in.

Just not a scripturally accurate statement, sorry.

If a man have not the Spirit of God he does not belong to God. How then can it be taught they do?

Okay, if I have assumed anything concerning your beliefs, just let me know. The questions are geared to stir up direction and maybe, maybe...get this thread back on track, lol.

...................
To summarize -

I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as an event -
Because ,it happened to me and is MOST WONDERFUL.

You believe because it happened to you? This is your validation of the Doctrine of Scripture?

My friend, despite our beliefs, scripture teaches what it teaches, and it is not a book(s) open for multiple interpretations and full of gray areas, but has been given directly to man for the express purpose that we might know Him better, regarding His Person and His will.

and i believe in the gift of tongues and its many expressions and uses by God -(not man)-
Because , he caused this gift to be exercised in me and still does .

And when you began "speaking in this language," was there no intellectual thought given to it? Most are taught how to do this. They practice and practice until they are fluent.

There are churches that teach. There are those that hold seminars to teach this gift.

Do you deny any of this concerning your gift?

doctrinal theory is nice but tangible experience proving the outworking of any doctrine is both undeniable and irrevocable in a persons life .




having received and experienced -shall i now draw back ?
certainly not .

In other words...experience supercedes that which is taught in scripture.

Right? That is what you are saying here.

Look, like I said at the outset, I usually avoid these discussions as it is one that usually encourages an emotional response. Understand that while I have friends that are charismatic and subscribe to glossolalia, and I love them because I do believe they are saved and are brothers and sisters, I will not, when it is brought up, fail to give the opposing view.

And I do that because I do love them, not because it is important that they believe as I do. The Spirit of God will teach us, but what is questionable is whether we will allow Him to do so or not.

There is much more to be addressed concerning this topic, and this is, in my view, just a brief intro into the discussion as it involves a number of doctrines that should be examined, not least of all how one is saved, and what takes place in that salvation.

The subject of the New Birth needs to be examined, and thus far you have suggested that one can be saved and have some sort of the Holy SPirit, yet not be baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit. Baptism is typically a form of identification, the one being baptized associated with the one baptizing. That is esp[eccially true of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit which is clearly seen in scripture as a spiritual work effected in the life of the natural man. Just as physical circumcision did not guarantee that one was truly a "Jew" (truly associated and complying with the First Covenant), even so water baptism, as most of us know, does not guarantee association and compliance with the New Covenant.

And while miraculous gifts were sought after by the Corinthians in an effort to appear spiritual (as opposed to natural) and to validate their own faith as being true, it is certain that there is no doubt that salvation can be replicated by the natural man, even as our Lord taught there would be tares among the wheat. Within the visible "Church" are many that will say, "Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonderful things in your name," and the Lord will profess, "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity."

Despite the outward appearance, salvation is the work of God concerning the spiritual, and it is this that we should focus upon. A disregard for the "intellectual" is a copout, for sound doctrine is vital to the Church. We would not suggest Paul did not intellectually assert in full confidence that which he preached and taught, in word and letter. We should likewise give thought and attendance to doctrine, that when we speak to those in need of the Gospel, we are not unable to answer the scoffing of wicked men.

And when we come together to think on the Lord together, we should be able to present a scriptural presentation of that which we believe, that those we seek to edify, exhort, or even rebuke...will have the word of God right there to measure and test that which is spoken of.

God bless.

 

[back2thebible]

Just not a scripturally accurate statement, sorry.

If a man have not the Spirit of God he does not belong to God. How then can it be taught they do?



[/color]

You believe because it happened to you? This is your validation of the Doctrine of Scripture?

My friend, despite our beliefs, scripture teaches what it teaches, and it is not a book(s) open for multiple interpretations and full of gray areas, but has been given directly to man for the express purpose that we might know Him better, regarding His Person and His will.





[/color][/color]

And when you began "speaking in this language," was there no intellectual thought given to it? Most are taught how to do this. They practice and practice until they are fluent.

There are churches that teach. There are those that hold seminars to teach this gift.

Do you deny any of this concerning your gift?



In other words...experience supercedes that which is taught in scripture.

Right? That is what you are saying here.

Look, like I said at the outset, I usually avoid these discussions as it is one that usually encourages an emotional response. Understand that while I have friends that are charismatic and subscribe to glossolalia, and I love them because I do believe they are saved and are brothers and sisters, I will not, when it is brought up, fail to give the opposing view.

And I do that because I do love them, not because it is important that they believe as I do. The Spirit of God will teach us, but what is questionable is whether we will allow Him to do so or not.

There is much more to be addressed concerning this topic, and this is, in my view, just a brief intro into the discussion as it involves a number of doctrines that should be examined, not least of all how one is saved, and what takes place in that salvation.

The subject of the New Birth needs to be examined, and thus far you have suggested that one can be saved and have some sort of the Holy SPirit, yet not be baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit. Baptism is typically a form of identification, the one being baptized associated with the one baptizing. That is esp[eccially true of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit which is clearly seen in scripture as a spiritual work effected in the life of the natural man. Just as physical circumcision did not guarantee that one was truly a "Jew" (truly associated and complying with the First Covenant), even so water baptism, as most of us know, does not guarantee association and compliance with the New Covenant.

And while miraculous gifts were sought after by the Corinthians in an effort to appear spiritual (as opposed to natural) and to validate their own faith as being true, it is certain that there is no doubt that salvation can be replicated by the natural man, even as our Lord taught there would be tares among the wheat. Within the visible "Church" are many that will say, "Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonderful things in your name," and the Lord will profess, "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity."

Despite the outward appearance, salvation is the work of God concerning the spiritual, and it is this that we should focus upon. A disregard for the "intellectual" is a copout, for sound doctrine is vital to the Church. We would not suggest Paul did not intellectually assert in full confidence that which he preached and taught, in word and letter. We should likewise give thought and attendance to doctrine, that when we speak to those in need of the Gospel, we are not unable to answer the scoffing of wicked men.

And when we come together to think on the Lord together, we should be able to present a scriptural presentation of that which we believe, that those we seek to edify, exhort, or even rebuke...will have the word of God right there to measure and test that which is spoken of.

God bless.

is it a typo.....whats a garner?

 

[P1LGR1M]

whats a garner?

Now this is a question that is well worth asking, and should be taken into consideration before making a conclusion as to the intent of John's words.

In the passage two fates are described. You said:

actually you need to look closer and see that its not an either or scenario

John didn't say you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit OR WITH FIRE

He said you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit AND WITH FIRE

It is true that the word "and" is used, not "or," which has led you to make a conclusion which is, in my view (lol), incorrect. When I asked a simple question which should give you cause to consider the conclusion you wish to teach, you illustrate why an erroneous conclusion can be made, which is by not taking into consideration all that is said.

A Garner is a place where the wheat is stored. See here for the word used by John and it's other uses and the english equivalents by which it is translated with.

Now look at the passage again:


Matthew 3:9-12

King James Version (KJV)


9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Fire in this passage speaks of Judgment, even as our Lord spoke of a baptism of judgment which He must undergo (Luke 12:50) that all be fulfilled.


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


John clarified that he was not the Christ. The contrast is with his baptism of repentance contrasted to that which the Lord would perform.

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Those that are baptized with the Holy Spirit will be gathered into His Garner; those that are chaff will be burned up.

There is much in scripture concerning the end of those that will be burned. For example, we see reference to trees having good fruit versus trees having bad fruit; we see wheat contrasted with tares (suggested by some to be "darnel," a growth that is hard to distinguish from wheat until harvest). But when we see something in scripture said to have of a fate of being burned up, context will distinguish the effect of the burning, and the object. As I said before you mix two different passages to conclude that here we see believers being baptized with both Holy Spirit and Fire, whereas the passage teaches that those that are burned up are not gathered into His Garner.

Hope that helps, and, I really have to get going.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

is it a typo.....whats a garner?

Is what a typo?

As an afterthought I would also include that we see ascribed to Christ two baptisms He will effect upon man, with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Those are the only two possible outcomes.

God bless.

 

[Michaelismyname]

God bless.[/QUOTE]

In other words...experience supercedes that which is taught in scripture

.

thats silly - my experience proves the scripture true and the promise faithfully kept .

either that is correct (as i have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost ) or I am lying .
in the name of the lord Jesus -what i have testified to you of is true . I did not testify of a theory but that which i have seen, tasted, tangibly experienced . (and i have only testified to you in part ).
but i will not argue endlessly on it .

the lord Jesus promised the holy Spirit to those who believe saying that "he" will lead us into all truth . i believed that promise and received Him
as a result of it ..i spoke and still do speak in tongues almost every day -speaking mysteries in the spirit , edifying, interceding ,praising God , receiving at times the interpretation thereof and at times experiencing visions of what it is I am praying about .

you can theorize all you wish but it will not change my testimony .

you can choose to disbelieve me - but that will not nullify anything
it will only make you an unbeliever .

 

[ChrisHolland619]

It's sad how some people just don't "get" it, it being the fact that the scriptures must be read in context to understand them, and understanding that tongues was a gift of the Holy Spirit that has no need today because we have bilingual Bibles, and the church has been established.

Sigh.

 

[Bella Vita]

It's sad how some people just don't "get" it, it being the fact that the scriptures must be read in context to understand them, and understanding that tongues was a gift of the Holy Spirit that has no need today because we have bilingual Bibles, and the church has been established.

Sigh.

I totally agree with you I believe it is taken out of context all the time. I think that it is not necessary today in american services. Now on a mission trip to another country maybe but not during your everyday stuff. And it also needs a translater present and it is not gibberish it is an actual language. People don't get it I understand your frustration. The gift of speaking in tounges in the U.S. has become a show and nothing more.

 

[P1LGR1M]

thats silly - my experience proves the scripture true and the promise faithfully kept .

Correction: your experience "proves" only what you believe the scriptures teach, and that is not the same as "proving what the scriptures teach."

And if you cannot take the word of God and validate ecatly what you believe it teaches, doesn't that suggest that what you believe is suspect? It should...to you.

Atheists mock and ridicule Christians and it is because they often talk with Christians that say they believe something but cannot explain from scripture why they believe it.

either that is correct (as i have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost ) or I am lying .

I have not, and will not...doubt your sincerity, Michael. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, and that you believe the word of God validates your belief and experience.

I have given a scriptural presentation on my views, and would add that this is "What a Baptist believes about speaking in tongues." But I would also qualify that with, "What this Baptist believes," lol. There are those that call themselves Baptists that would align with your position.

in the name of the lord Jesus -what i have testified to you of is true .

And I would change that to include "what I believe to be true."

You have contributed absolutely nothing scriptural to validate your position. You have contributed nothing to invalidate mine.

Just because we believe it to be true, does not mean it is, and I say that to include what I believe as well...not trying to exclude myself from that.

I did not testify of a theory but that which i have seen, tasted, tangibly experienced . (and i have only testified to you in part ).

The implication is that I have only offered theory, and I can understand why you might see it that way, however, you also assume that those in disagreement with you are devoid of experiencing God working in their lives.

And both are in error, which is the usual result of assumption.

but i will not argue endlessly on it .

Who's arguing?

You present what is supposed to be a biblical presentation of sound doctrine...and then don't want to talk when someone offers an opposing position.

This is a critical issue in the Body of Christ and the consequences of a loose interpretation which affects our practice is something that both sides whould be ready to address.

the lord Jesus promised the holy Spirit to those who believe saying that "he" will lead us into all truth .

If I said something like, "It makes me suspicious when someone calls Jesus lord, instead of Lord," what would you say, lol.

Look, I have addressed where I think you have erred concerning the Holy Spirit...what more can I do? If you wish to be taken seriously...go back and address that which has been presented.

If you think that any of us should think or feel others should just take our word for it, then you can expect to be disappointed when they don't.

No-one should take anyone's word for anything if it is not backed up by God's word.

i believed that promise and received Him
as a result of it ..

As will every person God saves.

But how is that relevant to what you are teaching? You say you were saved for years and then received the Spirit. I call that into question in my responses because that is not what I believe scripture to teach. I have given many scriptures and made many statements which you are free to address.

When you do that, perhaps it might be a discussion, rather than, "This is truth...believe it!"

If you want to prove subsequence, present the scriptural basis.

i spoke and still do speak in tongues almost every day -

There are those in Shinto and buddhism that also speak in tongues. Does this validate their religion?

speaking mysteries in the spirit ,

And I will supply, for you, the biblical basis for your doctrine:


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)


1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


I gave in the earlier response my belief that Paul is actually rebuking the Corinthians for what they are doing (which probably stems from their aquaintance to the Oracle of Delphi, where ecstatic speech was a normal event), rather than teaching that one that is employing the gift of tongues is employing it for that which it was intended. This is further evidenced as we go through the chapter, where the speaker is said to speak into the air.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.



The "mysteries" spoken of are contrasted to the edification, exhortation, and comfort provided by he that prophesies.

While it might sound good to say one "speaks in mysteries," keep inmind that biblically speaking a "mystery" is a previously unrevealed truth.

Are you suggesting that God is giving you new revelation that we should catalogue and include with that which we have in scripture? Think about that, Michael.

edifying,

Who is edified?

You? According to Paul, that is the only one that could be.

interceding ,

Scripture?

Can I venture a guess, since I have not been provided with one, of the basis for this statement, as is oft used by our charismatic brethren?

Romans 8:26-27

King James Version (KJV)


26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.



Feel free to produce your own. But if this is it...then it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues. In fact, it has nothing to do with what a believer is doing, as it is the Holy Spirit that is making intercession, and...with groaning that cannot be uttered.

Not with groanings that can be uttered.

And surely you are not suggesting that men are the ones "searching hearts."

praising God ,

And I can understand how one might see this gift as a means of praise, as in Acts 2 we see them speaking in tongues, praising God.

But I would ask, based upon your next statement, how it is that you even know you are praising God? Is this to say that sometimes you understand what you are saying, sometimes you don't?

receiving at times the interpretation thereof

Of what you are saying?

So Paul went a little overboard saying...


1 Corinthians 14

King James Version (KJV)



6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?



Has the Body today a better understanding than that which God inspired Paul to teach? He makes it clear that when he speaks in languages, apart from edification of the Body it would be unprofitable.

and at times experiencing visions of what it is I am praying about .

If you say you have visions, okay. How they compare to the visions professed by another member recently?

you can theorize all you wish but it will not change my testimony .

And this may very well be true.

But could I suggest that testimony should always be in agreement with scripure?

you can choose to disbelieve me - but that will not nullify anything
it will only make you an unbeliever .

The implication being, "If you do not believe me...you are not a believer."

Really, Michael, we must be careful how we phrase things, lol.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I totally agree with you I believe it is taken out of context all the time. I think that it is not necessary today in american services. Now on a mission trip to another country maybe but not during your everyday stuff. And it also needs a translater present and it is not gibberish it is an actual language. People don't get it I understand your frustration. The gift of speaking in tounges in the U.S. has become a show and nothing more.

God bless the American Navy...the single greatest fighting force ever established.

 

[OzSpen]

It's sad how some people just don't "get" it, it being the fact that the scriptures must be read in context to understand them, and understanding that tongues was a gift of the Holy Spirit that has no need today because we have bilingual Bibles, and the church has been established.

Sigh.

Chris,

It's sad that you don't "get" it either. When I read 1 Corinthians 12-14 in context, I find that the full range of the gifts of the Spirit will continue. When will they cease?

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face (1 Cor. 13:12 ESV).

They will cease when we see our Lord face to face. Until then, they continue. How do I know? The Bible tells me so!

When you don't understand the supernatural gifts of the Spirit and their manifestation in the Corinthian church and today, what do you do? You resort to your human reason to give us an understanding of what the Bible DOES NOT teach:

understanding that tongues was a gift of the Holy Spirit that has no need today because we have bilingual Bibles

You confuse something big time. The gift of interpretation, required with the gift of tongues, when in the church, has ZERO to do with translation. It has EVERYTHING to do with interpretation - supernatural interpretation.

But your cessationist views are clouding your views so that you don't "get" it either.

Oz

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello Oz, nice to meet you.

Chris,

It's sad that you don't "get" it either. When I read 1 Corinthians 12-14 in context, I find that the full range of the gifts of the Spirit will continue. When will they cease?

I know this post wasn't addressed to me, but as another that just doesn't "get it," lol, I will nevertheless address this post, making it clear that I do not presume to speak for anyone else.


1 Corinthians 13

King James Version (KJV)



8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.



Strongs outlines this like this:


1Cr 13:8Charity 26 never 3763 faileth 1601: but 1161 whether 1535 [there be] prophecies 4394, they shall fail 2673; whether 1535 [there be] tongues 1100, they shall cease 3973; whether 1535 [there be] knowledge 1108, it shall vanish away 2673.

Note that three words are used to speak of "failing, ceasing," and "vanishing away."

We can see that Charity never fails, but prophesies fail, tongues will cease, and knowledge will vanish away (which is the same word used regarding prophecies).

Given the assumption Paul was not using words without reason, it is interesting he does not use the same word here. Why is that? I would suggest that it is because tongues will have no further use as a sign beyond the establishment of the Church in the first century.

Paul goes on to say...


1 Corinthians 13

King James Version (KJV)



8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

What about tongues? It could be said that tongues are not performed "in part" but this would make little sense as both the gifts of prophecy and knowledge were not given to every believer, so the conclusion of many, including myself, is that tongues will cease at some point.

It's sad that you don't "get" it either. When I read 1 Corinthians 12-14 in context, I find that the full range of the gifts of the Spirit will continue.

Okay, so how many miracle workers...do you know?

How many do you know that have the gift of healing, and heal on a consistent basis?

How many do you know that raise the dead?

Just curious.

They will cease when we see our Lord face to face. Until then, they continue. How do I know? The Bible tells me so!

And I can understand a belief that the gift of tongues continues today.

I will tell you a secret, and you must promise not to tell anyone: I believe there are times when there is an exception to a general rule.And what I mean by that is that I think it highly possible that the Lord may incorporate a gift that is not in use today in general...from time to time. I would not be dogmatic about that, but I have heard stories from missionaries that speak about language barriers being overcome.

Butthat brings us to what is the core of this debate: what exactly is the gift of tongues? Is it known languages? Or is it ecstatic speech?

There are only two choices in the matter.

Some use this...


1 Corinthians 13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


...to suggest that the speech which others consider ecstatic speech is an Heavenly language, or, an Angelic language.

This makes little sense seeing that in every instance God and Angels speak to men, they speakin a languager which is understandable to the hearer. And we all know that the language of Heaven is English with a Scottish accent.

(just kidding about that last, lol)

So I would ask you to represent your beliefs having scripture as a foundation for them, explaining which position you take.

When you don't understand the supernatural gifts of the Spirit and their manifestation in the Corinthian church and today, what do you do?

Well, glad you asked. What I do is compare that which is said to be Christian with that which is taught in scripture.

And if there is a disagreement, then scripture, as always, should settle the matter.

You resort to your human reason to give us an understanding of what the Bible DOES NOT teach:

The Lord Jesus expounded upon scripture, was He also using human reasoning?

Is it a matter that if one disagrees with a position it is a result of human reasoning, rather than fervent study of scripture?

You confuse something big time. The gift of interpretation, required with the gift of tongues, when in the church, has ZERO to do with translation.

See the original word translated interpretation defined:

2058. hermeneia her-may-ni'-ah from the same as 2059; translation:--interpretation.

Look at the etymology, it is quite interesting. But what we can say is that interpretation has everything to do with translation.

And this applies to gifts where language barriers are a concern. Two suggestions that are in my view ludicrous is that God gifts men to either speak a language that has no earthly benefit or that He intended for this to be a personal means of edification.

Of which of the other gifts would we consider for self-edification?

Did they work miracles, or prophecy, to "profit withal" themselves? Did they heal themselves? Did they cast out demons from themselves?

Do we forget that 1 Corinthians 12 is speaking about the collective Body, not the individual? That ch.13 speaks of the importance of charity? Do we miss the fact that Paul makes it clear that languages are to be understood?

It has EVERYTHING to do with interpretation - supernatural interpretation.

But not translation? What exactly do you think the interpreter is doing?

This applies to both the interpretation of a language as well as a concept(s), but in view are languages, as can consistently be seen in the passages where tongues are referenced, which has to be tied to the word translated interpretation.

But your cessationist views are clouding your views so that you don't "get" it either.

Oz

Perhaps you could expand upon this, and give a scriptural presentation for why one would embrace the "gift of tongues" as it is seen in the world today.

God bless.

 

[OzSpen]

PILGRIM,

In all that you wrote immediately above, you did not refute what I wrote about 1 Cor. 13:12 that the gifts of the Spirit will cease when we are "face to face" with out Saviour. And not until then!

I don’t plan on giving you an extended explanation of the gift of tongues. I direct you to my article, ‘Is the gift of tongues and example of babbling to God?’ that was encouraged by some posts on this Forum.

Even that great preacher, C H Spurgeon, could not be consistent on this. His stated theology was cessationism but in practice he violates that. See my article, ‘Cessationism through church history’. Here’s a sample to do with Spurgeon:

C. H. Spurgeon the prominent 19th century Baptist preacher and pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, for 38 years, wrote that

“those gifts of the Holy Spirit which are at this time vouchsafed to the church of God are every way as valuable as those earlier miraculous gifts which are departed from us… As you would certainly inquire whether you had the gifts of healing and miracle-working, if such gifts were now given to believers, much more should you inquire whether you have those more permanent gifts of the Spirit which are this day open to you all, by the which you shall work no physical miracle, but shall achieve spiritual wonders of the grander sort”.[26]
​

In my preparation of this article, I engaged in email discussion with my friend, Philip Powell, who alerted me to several incidents in the life of C. H. Spurgeon which indicate that he was not a cessationist. Spurgeon provided these descriptions and an explanation, as supplied by Philip Powell (I have located the following quotes from other sources):

Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834-92) was the prominent Baptist preacher in England during the 19th century, who spoke of a “sermon at Exeter Hall in which he suddenly broke off from his subject, and pointing in a certain direction, said, `Young man, those gloves you are wearing have not been paid for: you have stolen them from your employer’. At the close of the service, a young man, looking very pale and greatly agitated, came to the room, which was used as a vestry, and begged for a private interview with Spurgeon. On being admitted, he placed a pair of gloves upon the table, and tearfully said, `It’s the first time I have robbed my master, and I will never do it again. You won’t expose me, sir, will you? It would kill my mother if she heard that I had become a thief’.” (see HERE)
“On another occasion while he was preaching, Spurgeon said there was a man in the gallery who had a bottle of gin in his pocket. This not only startled the man in the gallery who had the gin, but it also led to his conversion.” (see HERE)
Spurgeon gives further examples of his prophetic ministry:
“While preaching in the hall, on one occasion, I deliberately pointed to a man in the midst of the crowd, and said, `There is a man sitting there, who is a shoemaker; he keeps his shop open on Sundays, it was open last Sabbath morning, he took nine pence, and there was four pence profit out of it; his soul is sold to Satan for four pence!’ A city missionary, when going his rounds, met with this man, and seeing that he was reading one of my sermons, he asked the question, `Do you know Mr Spurgeon?’ `Yes,’ replied the man `I have every reason to know him, I have been to hear him; and under his preaching, by God’s grace I have become a new creature in Christ Jesus. Shall I tell you how it happened? I went to the Music Hall, and took my seat in the middle of the place: Mr Spurgeon looked at me as if he knew me, and in his sermon he pointed to me, and told the congregation that I was a shoemaker, and that I kept my shop open on Sundays; and I did, sir. I should not have minded that; but he also said that I took nine pence the Sunday before, and that there was four pence profit; but how he should know that, I could not tell. Then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul through him, so I shut up my shop the next Sunday. At first, I was afraid to go again to hear him, lest he should tell the people more about me; but afterwards I went, and the Lord met with me, and saved my soul.’” (See HERE)

How does Spurgeon explain this prophetic ministry of a "word of knowledge"?

“I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at somebody in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person, or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it; and so striking has been my description that the persons have gone away, and said to their friends, `Come, see a man that told me all things that ever I did; beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly.’ And not only so, but I have known many instances in which the thoughts of men have been revealed from the pulpit. I have sometimes seen persons nudge their neighbours with their elbow, because they had got a smart hit, and they have been heard to say, when they were going out, `The preacher told us just what we said to one another when we went in at the door.’” (See HERE)
​

Let’s go back to the second century:

Irenaeus was born in the first half of the second century (his birth date has been suggested between 115-125) and died towards the end of that century. As one of the first great theologians of the church, he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus became bishop of Lyons, Gaul (France today).
Irenaeus assures us that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit had not disappeared by the end of the second century. He wrote in a leading refutation of Gnosticism, Against Heresies (written about 180):

“Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ”.[30]
​

So Irenaeus knew of the practice of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit in his day. Thus, they did not cease with the death of the Twelve and the formation of the New Testament canon of Scripture. It is estimated that the last book of the New Testament was written about AD 95-96 (the Book of Revelation). Thus, Irenaeus refutes John MacArthur’s statement that “once the Word of God was inscripturated, the sign gifts were no longer needed and they ceased”.[31] Irenaeus clearly shows the existence of sign gifts in the church over 100 years after the completion of the canon of Scripture.

Irenaeus also provided us with the earliest undisputed authority for the authorship of the four Gospels: Matthew issued his Gospel among the Hebrews; Mark was the disciple and interpreter of Peter; Luke was a companion of Paul and recorded a Gospel preached by Paul; John, a disciple of the Lord, published his Gospel while he was in Ephesus in Asia.[32]

With John Piper and Irenaeus, I am not persuaded by the arguments of the cessationists. For a defence of the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit, I recommend Jack Deere’s article, “Were miracles meant to be temporary?“[33]
​

Sincerely, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

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[OzSpen]

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