The apologia of the cosmos. Evidence of God

[Elioenai26]

You present an ugly, disgusting false dichotomy that paints the human race as inherently worthless and deserving of death. I'm not surprised- it's what your religion has taught you. That people are bad. This is not always the case.

I am speaking from experience here Danyc. I know me. I know how I am. I know how I was before Christ came into my life. I know that there is no good thing in me. Oh sure, I can do "good things", but acts in and of themselves are of comparatively little value when the love and intent of the act is weighed. I also know that I am no different than anyone else in the world in this respect. It is far easier for me to do wrong than right, to cheat than to be honest, to steal instead of labor, to hate instead of love, to hold a grudge instead of forgive. All of these things are natural to us. To me, to you.

There are many people who live entirely selflessly- they do not worship themselves by any degree. If anything, they debase themselves, putting others needs above their own at all times. They don't worship themselves in ANY sense, not even by your silly definitions, and they don't worship God either.

I cannot think of one man, woman, or child who has ever lived an entirely selfless life. I know of no one who puts others needs above their others at all times. I know I do not, and I am sure if you are honest, you will confess that you do not either. No man has ever lived a completely selfless life except Jesus Christ.

Free yourself from these chains dude. You've shackled yourself up in this view of reality that is entirely of your own creation.

I once was shackled by the chains of sin and iniquity, of unrighteousness, malice, envy, hate, and lustful passions. But when Christ set me free, He set me free from sin and death, and I am free indeed.

 

[Elioenai26]

Except....we don't worship either.

So, false dichotomy.

Here, you must speak for yourself. For there are some atheists here who admittedly reverence themselves and exalt themselves.

Just because you screw up that way doesn't mean you need to project it onto everyone else.

My statement does not apply to you, you are not a follower of Christ. Only a disciple of Christ can know the struggle I speak of. So no projection was intended. Sorry if you took it that way.

 

[Danyc]

I am speaking from experience here Danyc. I know me. I know how I am. I know how I was before Christ came into my life. I know that there is no good thing in me. Oh sure, I can do "good things", but acts in and of themselves are of comparatively little value when the love and intent of the act is weighed. I also know that I am no different than anyone else in the world in this respect. It is far easier for me to do wrong than right, to cheat than to be honest, to steal instead of labor, to hate instead of love, to hold a grudge instead of forgive. All of these things are natural to us. To me, to you.

Normally I would tell you to give yourself more credit, that you aren't as bad a person as your religion wants you to believe. However, after watching you again and again lie about me and my peers here, and how you have continuously spouted against the progress of mankind, I am inclined not to give you the benefit of the doubt. You haven't earned it.

I cannot think of one man, woman, or child who has ever lived an entirely selfless life. I know of no one who puts others needs above their others at all times. I know I do not, and I am sure if you are honest, you will confess that you do not either. No man has ever lived a completely selfless life except Jesus Christ.

What, you think someone like that is going to make headlines? Your apparent contempt for humanity is almost insulting. It's inhuman.

Even if I granted you that there was no single 'perfect' person (the concept of which only applies in your silly universe of 'sin'), what on earth is your definition of worship? You cannot possibly, in your right mind (whatever that might be for you), deny that there are selfless people who do not, in ANY sense, worship themselves. To deny this would be ridiculous. So by all means, go ahead and do it. Don't break the mold just for me.

I once was shackled by the chains of sin and iniquity, of unrighteousness, malice, envy, hate, and lustful passions. But when Christ set me free, He set me free from sin and death, and I am free indeed.

Your church set you in a narrow path- completely blocking you from the myriad of ways in which you could of lived your life. Many bad, but many for the good of humankind. I'm sure you're already aware of just how little Christianity has contributed to the health and well-being of nations when compared to the achievements of the scientific method.

 

[KCfromNC]

It simply means that one reverences or worships either themself or Jesus Christ.

Or a different god. Or a number of different gods. Or nothing at all.

 

[KCfromNC]

For there are some atheists here who admittedly reverence themselves and exalt themselves.

Please link to the posts where these alleged atheists have said they revere themselves as a Christian does Jesus Christ. I know you'll fail here, but sometimes the journey is the point of the trip.

 

[The Engineer]

Here, you must speak for yourself. For there are some atheists here who admittedly reverence themselves and exalt themselves.

Really?

Please link to the posts where these alleged atheists have said they revere themselves as a Christian does Jesus Christ. I know you'll fail here, but sometimes the journey is the point of the trip.

I would be interested in that, too.

 

[Elioenai26]

My work here is done, for the conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

 

[Wiccan_Child]

My work here is done, for the conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

And thus, the ulterior motive that was so cleverly hidden, reveals itself: Elionenai26 is unable to accept criticism of his fallacious logic because he needs it to prop up his proselytism. When he's unable to counter the barrage of refutations - or, indeed, any of them - he simply dismisses them.

What more needs to be said

 

[Danyc]

Congratulations kiddo. You defended your invisible deity just as well as I believed you could. That is to say, not at all.

 

[Davian]

My work here is done, for the conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

If he existed, that is.

 

[Davian]

 

[Eudaimonist]

Here, you must speak for yourself. For there are some atheists here who admittedly reverence themselves and exalt themselves.

I'll assume here that you're talking about my custom use title, because I can't guess at anything else you could mean. That is:

Reverencing the Exalted Spirit of Man

If you think that means that I'm worshipping myself like a god, you've deeply misunderstood.

I don't reverence or exalt myself. Reread the quote. I don't say that.

Rather, I regard human individuals as capable of living up to a spirit of heroism in pursuit of a noble destiny -- in simple terms, the ongoing activity of following a good "calling" in life. Joseph Campbell called it "follow[ing] your bliss", although he later commented that it might be better rendered as "follow your blisters."

That spirit is something that I honor. I don't get down on my knees and worship this spirit like a god, but rather it is something that I see as deserving of admiration and respect. The exalted spirit of Man isn't any particular individual, but rather a dedication to achieving something constructive and worthwhile in life -- a standard that one lives up to. It is exalted above wasting your life on trivial or self-destructive values.

It isn't anything like the worship of a perfect, transcendent deity, unless you want to water down the word worship to mean simply something like the admiration or respect that one might feel for any accomplished -- though imperfect -- human individual.

So Gadarene is correct. You really should let me speak for myself instead of trying to speak for me. Jumping at straws isn't going to help you.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Gadarene]

I'll assume here that you're talking about my custom use title, because I can't guess at anything else you could mean. That is:

Reverencing the Exalted Spirit of Man

If you think that means that I'm worshipping myself like a god, you've deeply misunderstood.

I don't reverence or exalt myself. Reread the quote. I don't say that.

Rather, I regard human individuals as capable of living up to a spirit of heroism in pursuit of a noble destiny -- in simple terms, the ongoing activity of following a good "calling" in life. Joseph Campbell called it "follow[ing] your bliss", although he later commented that it might be better rendered as "follow your blisters."

That spirit is something that I honor. I don't get down on my knees and worship this spirit like a god, but rather it is something that I see as deserving of admiration and respect. The exalted spirit of Man isn't any particular individual, but rather a dedication to achieving something constructive and worthwhile in life -- a standard that one lives up to. It is exalted above wasting your life on trivial or self-destructive values.

It isn't anything like the worship of a perfect, transcendent deity, unless you want to water down the word worship to mean simply something like the admiration or respect that one might feel for any accomplished -- though imperfect -- human individual.

So Gadarene is correct. You really should let me speak for myself instead of trying to speak for me. Jumping at straws isn't going to help you.

eudaimonia,

Mark

This is also exactly what I have been saying all along. While one may hold man in high regard, that doesn't imply overconfidence or pride or worship of mankind as divine as some Christians are so quick to strawman. For those of us who actually were Christians at one point, there is frequently a marked difference in feeling between the remembrance of worshipping Christ and the admiration of humans.

But as with many things that don't fit their preconceptions, the response of the Christian to this is denial and character assassination.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This is also exactly what I have been saying all along. While one may hold man in high regard, that doesn't imply overconfidence or pride or worship of mankind as divine as some Christians are so quick to strawman.

That's right.

A recent example is Neil Armstrong. When he died, we saw a number of newspaper articles honoring him for his distinction not only as an astronaut, but also as the first man to walk on the Moon. It would have been an injustice to write about him without mentioning this accomplishment. Honoring him in this way isn't making a god out of him. It is simply giving him the respect he is due.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Elioenai26]

This thread needs to be looked at more in depth by members of this philosophy forum.

 

[Elioenai26]

I am opening the invitation to debate on the topic:

"Evidence for God's Existence"

And will be using the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

Any takers?

We can have the debate right here in this thread.

 

[bhsmte]

1. Everything that begins to exist, has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist at some point in the distant past.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

It has been shown that the conclusion (3) is true because it follows logically from the premises and the premises are true. The premises are true because (2) is substantiated by the five lines of scientific observation and research which demand that the universe had a definite beginning as well as the corroborating citations of scientists (agnostics and atheists). Premise (1) is self-evident.

Now if the conclusion (3) is true, then the universe is not eternal. What ever has a cause cannot be eternal. This is self-evident. Not only is this self-evident, but maintaining that the universe is eternal committs the infinite regression fallacy. If there were an infinite number of days before today, then today would never have arrived. But we are here. An infinite number of days cannot be traversed.

It is also worth nothing that the Second Law of Thermodynamics supports the Big Bang findings, but is not dependent on it. The fact that the universe is running out of usable energy is not up for debate.

Einstein's General Relativity is like the above. This theory, verified to five decimal places, requires a beginning to space, matter and time.

Thirdly, scientific evidence from geology shows us that the universe had a beginning. Why? Well look at how much radioactive uranium exists today. In high school we all learned that radioactive elements decay over time into other elements. Rad.Uranium decays into lead.

If all Uranium atoms were infinitely old, they would all be lead, but they're not!

William Lane Craig at his best.

Watch debates between Craig and several others on youtube, as Craig is big on the first cause piece.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Reality exists. We can learn something about reality. Models with predictive capabilities work better than those without.

Maybe the universe has always existed.

I lack belief in gods, therefore atheism is true.

 

[Sectio Aurea]

This thread needs to be looked at more in depth by members of this philosophy forum.

Why? Have you something more add?

Or are you just bumping dead threads to boost view counts in a bid to make your CV look better?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This thread needs to be looked at more in depth by members of this philosophy forum.

You most of all.