willieH: Hi PW...
<staff edit>
Oh I was surprised that there wasn't some commentary on the hopelessness of many pastors these days, not that I would deny it. I guess he just doesn't understand the studies that Lutheran pastors undertake.
The studies that "Lutheran pastors" undertake, are influenced by the LUTHERAN biased philosphies. Which means that one which "undertakes" such studies, WILL be biased toward those philosophies.
It does not matter to me what "study" pathway your husband has taken. I have been a student of the
WORD, and am willing to discuss Scripture with ANYONE which will discuss in a civil manner. LutheranMafia is not such a person, don't know (and dont care) whether you husband is... In any event, your husband is IRRELEVANT in this discussion.
The topic is not about YOUR HUSBAND. The topic is "ETERNAL TORMENT is NOT a Bible doctrine"... which it is NOT!
You appear to believe that your husband (which is not part of this discussion), is somehow relevant to it, on the alledged basis that he has undertaken a Lutheran pastor's pathway to study... I cannot see why any of that matters in the least.
The thing is, my faith is strengthened and edified DAILY by being married to my husband. Most people, when they have a question about scripture, have to wait to hear from their pastor (if they even have one) but I have one sleeping in the bed next to me. I could wake him up at 3am with a question if I wanted to. (I'm sure his members could too but I doubt any of them would take him up on that!)
I do not mean any offense to you or your husband, nor to his educational achievements however,
My wife has the same advantage.
...I am a pastor as well. GOD ordained me, not men. And I will be happy to discuss anything in Scripture with you, as long as it entails and INCLUDES
REASON --
Isaiah 1:18 -- You are (as is my wife) ...as qualified to speak, if you have prayerfully and diligently studied the subject, as has your husband. GOD can reveal to anyone, ESPECIALLY those unschooled... as opposed to those in the institutions of MAN. (see the Apostles for an example)
Just because he went to a school of MAN, does not necessarily equate his education to SPIRITUAL knowledge. It only means that He has attended
(1) a school which MAN has erected and,
(2) offers information that MEN have provided, and,
(3) uses (Lutheran) guidelines which MEN have founded.
What "school" did
any of the Apostles go to?
ONE. They went to the "school of
LIFE"
The
TRUTH is that the APOSTLES listened to the
WORD, and the
WORD REASONED with them. Their only "school" was the
WORD. That is the school of
LIFE, for within THAT "school" the
WORD provides ---> the
WAY, the
TRUTH and the
LIFE --
John 14:6
All in all, and this is my final post in the thread, there's a reason why this topic is confined to the unorthodox theology section...the existence of hell and its implications are mainstream Christian beliefs.
Stating the obvious. Sorry you have decided to end your involvement in this subject. To this point you have not proven at all that --- "ETERNAL TORMENT is a Biblical doctrine (teaching)"
"Mainstream christianity" is not a Biblically supported entity.
That "christianity" subscribes in part to HEARSAY as well as to pagan originated teachings... is an identification of it as the "FALSE PROPHET", named in the book of Revelation, which actually
leads out in the system of
RELIGION called BABYLON... which Book also instructs
BELIEVERS (the PEOPLE of
YHVH) to remove themselves from said system --
Rev 18:4 -- (one cannot COME OUT of something one is NOT already IN!)
Unfortunately the Majority of them, shall
NOT LISTEN --
Matt 24:5 -- Matt 7:22-23
There is ample evidence that unrepentant sinners and unbelievers suffer in hell. Gnashing of teeth, the rich man begging Lazarus for even just a drop of water...these things are eternal, just like being in heaven is eternal. One can't be eternal forever without the other being eternal forever.
Really? I could not disagree MORE with you about what you just said. ALL men are tested by
GEHENNA fire --
Mark 9:42-49
GOD is the GOD of
PEACE --
Rom 15:33 -- where is the
PEACE in such an observation?
GOD's MERCY
endures FOREVER --
Psalm 136 (entire chapter) -- where is the MERCY in such an observation of "forever"?
CHRIST died
for ALL SIN --
Col 1:20 -- and
TOOK AWAY the SIN of the WORLD --
John 1:29 -- Why is SIN still there PW, causing GOD to disregard this (in your observation)?
You're "pretty learned"... answer with your KNOWLEDGE!
This life is GEHENNA Fire... symbolized in the book of Revelation as the Lake of FIRE -- which IS the 2nd death (death of the flesh-wage of sin). "HELL" (hades=grave) was cast into it, as well as adversity (satan), as well as every one which are "fearful" (hell believers for one) -- "Unbelieving" (all begin as UNBELIEVERS) -- "Abominable" -- see Prov 6:16 for "abominations - if any have at any time applied to YOU, then YOU are "abominable" -- "Murderers" (just speaking unkindly is such) -- "whoremongers" (a man looking lustfully fits this) -- Liars (everyone in the pool!), Idolators (have a favorite actor?), Sorcerers (drug users) -- need I say more?
Within your traditional "mainstream" observation, you take a PARABLE (written in symbolism) --
Luke 16:19-31 -- and note the LITERAL where it is convenient (
HELL). Which is about as UNSPIRITUAL an observation as can be.
No offense intended to you, but any "atheist" can and DOES arrive at the conclusions that you do about this section of Scripture! --
-- Many UNBELIEVERS become "atheists", as this proposition which YOU SUPPORT, which IS the TOPIC of this discussion.... that being that GOD shall ETERNALLY TORMENT men.
Atheists find it completely
UNREASONABLE for GOD (should he exist) to
eternally torment men (and name this punishment as "
JUST"), for misbehavior within an amount of time so SHORT, that GOD notes it as a VAPOR --
James 4:14
Just in a quick OVERVIEW here is wisdom... listen if you have ears to hear: ...this parable is NOT about "
HELL", at all!
It is about those (who HAVE the riches of GOD = Christians) whose
TONGUES are
set afire of
GEHENNA and actively CONDEMN men, which are made in the IMAGE of GOD --
James 3:6-10 -- and,
1. Uses the "
rich man" as a figurative reference to the JEWS (and "Christians" which were/are) they which HAVE "Moses & the Prophets" -
vs 29 --
2. Uses
LAZERUS as a figurative reference to the GENTILES (which did NOT have the "riches" of GOD and were and ARE scorned by the "rich"), and,
3. Uses
ABRAHAM (being the father of "faith") as a figurative reference to
FAITH. There is a GREAT CHASM --
Luke 16:26 -- between those WITH FAITH, and those WITHOUT FAITH... yet they reside in the SAME PROXIMITY, speaking to one another, as in this Parable --
Luke 16:23-24
YHVH God, nor
CHRIST, nor
HEAVEN, nor
HELL , nor Angels, find any mention whatsoever in this PARABLE!!! ...
Why? Because it is not about Heaven, or
JESUS, or
YHVH, nor is it about HELL, ...it is about
FAITH ...which is given from GOD... unto the DEAD in this WORLD, which gives them LIFE from DEATH.
The "
bosum of
ABRAHAM" is not
HEAVEN... it is the "bosum of
FAITH" --
Heb 11:8-10 -- as He (
ABRAHAM) is named in the "GENEOLOGY" --
Matt 1:1-2 -- of the
AUTHOR of
FAITH -- Heb 12:2
ABRAHAM was a SINNER, and did not and DOES NOT have the ability to FORGIVE SIN, nor to HAVE MERCY!
There is NO documentation that the "RICH man" actually did anything WRONG, nor is there for LAZERUS doing anything RIGHT!
This parable is about ALL MEN, and the deceptions which either lead them into understanding and the
GOSPEL of
PEACE, concerning ALL THINGS which is the VICTORY of the CROSS --
Col 1:20
Or, ...into the CONDEMNATION of the TONGUE --
James 3:6-10 -- which
LOVE NOT the world (that GOD so
LOVES), ...and which CONDEMN it, ...where
CHRIST did NOT --
John 8:3-11 -- TEACHING
FEAR instead of GOOD NEWS, which [
fear] is
CAST OUT by PERFECT
LOVE --
1 John 4:18
Yes, God is a merciful God, but he's also a jealous God and he's made it pretty clear what awaits unbelievers.
Are you kidding me, PW?
You stated you are pretty "well learned" in the original languages, so it should be safe to say that if indeed this is true, you must also be "well learned" in other facets of study, that are lesser, or require less time to obtain...
Anyone who has done any degree of study, KNOWS about "divine accomodation" (condescension)... Which is GOD as a perfect and completely knowledgeable being (as you would to a child, discussing ADULT premises), simplifies, and communicates with terminology that is specifically more elementary, in order for understanding to be conveyed to more elementary beings...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_(religion)
GOD is not "
JEALOUS" in the same way as is a human being. For crying out loud! He DECLARED ALL THINGS, before they even BECAME "things" --
Isaiah 46:10
Jealousy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Negative Effects of Jealousy | eHow.com
Characteristics Of Jealousy | LIVESTRONG.COM
It is completely preposterous to maintain that He was "
JEALOUS" of beings lesser than Himself (which is an emotion primarily ridden with SUSPICION, INSTABILITY, and INSECURITY). God is hardly UNSTABLE, SUSPICOUS, or INSECURE about ANYTHING, for goodness sake!
Every knee shall bow, that is certain, but even the demons know who Jesus is - yet they are still demons and still not in heaven with God.
Well... these are all speculations. That every knee BOWS (as did yours, before Him), shall He not turn away. He did not "turn away" from you, neither (being perfectly impartial -
Prov 28:21 & 10 others) shall He turn from ANYONE bowing at the "KNEE" (which is the "knee" of the Heart, not the middle of your physical leg!
)
And there is no promise of HEAVEN. New Jerusalem is NOT in HEAVEN... nor is anyone promised to go there.
Let me ask you (not that you will answer), but... Where is there a plan in place to save "demons"? And if there is none, ...WHY? Do you percieve that GOD does not
LOVE "angels"?
Please do not speculate about "evil" appearing in Heaven within angels as this is UNBIBLICAL... also, ...GOD created EVIL --
Isaiah 45:7 -- so the reponsibility of the existence of EVIL falls to His creation of it, not upon "angels" which SUPPOSEDLY "FELL", from Heaven.
Though I could easily answer you with pages of
TRUTH, I will leave you with this... GOD saved the WORLD and ALL within it... for He SO [eternally/unchangingly -
Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8] --->
LOVES this WORLD...
He is the CREATOR and SAVIOR of it... I feel sorry for you that you do not BELIEVE in Him, as a successful GOD... rather, you believe Him to be as are YOU, ...JEALOUS of, and VENGENT against, ...those whom He foreknew TO FAIL... which is utterly UNREASONABLE.
PEACE...
...willieH