Eternal torment is not a Bible doctrine (2)

he-man

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... all unbelievers become believers... Jesus own promise on that :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever

... why do you doubt Jesus' word and listen to the words of sinners instead ?

- just because there are a LOT of sinners ?
the MANY are DESTROYED , only FEW find Jesus' way in this life [Matt 7:13-14]

countless many though believe later in the kingdom come and are saved despite being destroyed in this life [Rev 7:9-10] so ,as Jesus showed, man is resurrected from the spiirit, destruction of the flesh does not end a man, indeed cannot... the spirit of a man is in God's image , how we are made, so one cannot destroy what is of God :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
God will decide to whom he resurrects from the spirit.

[FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif][FONT=TimesNewRomanPSMT, serif]In the Bible, the word abaddon means destruction (Job. xxxi, 12), or the place of destruction, i. e. the subterranean world, Hades, the region of the dead (Job xxvi, 6; xxviii, 22; Prov. xv, 11). It is, in fact, the second of the seven names which the Rabbins apply to that region; and they deduce it particularly from Psa. lxxxviii, 11, " Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in (abaddon) destruction?" [/FONT][/FONT]
But that in Rev. ix, 11 Abaddon is the angel, and not the abyss, is perfectly evident in the Greek. There is a general connection with the destroyer (q. v.) alluded to in 1 Chron. xxi, 15

Cyclopedia of Bibical Literature, James Strong, and Rev. John McClintock
 
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WillieH

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willieH: Hi PW... :wave:


<staff edit>



Oh I was surprised that there wasn't some commentary on the hopelessness of many pastors these days, not that I would deny it. I guess he just doesn't understand the studies that Lutheran pastors undertake.


The studies that "Lutheran pastors" undertake, are influenced by the LUTHERAN biased philosphies. Which means that one which "undertakes" such studies, WILL be biased toward those philosophies.


It does not matter to me what "study" pathway your husband has taken. I have been a student of the WORD, and am willing to discuss Scripture with ANYONE which will discuss in a civil manner. LutheranMafia is not such a person, don't know (and dont care) whether you husband is... In any event, your husband is IRRELEVANT in this discussion.


The topic is not about YOUR HUSBAND. The topic is "ETERNAL TORMENT is NOT a Bible doctrine"... which it is NOT! :thumbsup:


You appear to believe that your husband (which is not part of this discussion), is somehow relevant to it, on the alledged basis that he has undertaken a Lutheran pastor's pathway to study... I cannot see why any of that matters in the least. :)



The thing is, my faith is strengthened and edified DAILY by being married to my husband. Most people, when they have a question about scripture, have to wait to hear from their pastor (if they even have one) but I have one sleeping in the bed next to me. I could wake him up at 3am with a question if I wanted to. (I'm sure his members could too but I doubt any of them would take him up on that!)


I do not mean any offense to you or your husband, nor to his educational achievements however,


My wife has the same advantage. ;) ...I am a pastor as well. GOD ordained me, not men. And I will be happy to discuss anything in Scripture with you, as long as it entails and INCLUDES REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- You are (as is my wife) ...as qualified to speak, if you have prayerfully and diligently studied the subject, as has your husband. GOD can reveal to anyone, ESPECIALLY those unschooled... as opposed to those in the institutions of MAN. (see the Apostles for an example)


Just because he went to a school of MAN, does not necessarily equate his education to SPIRITUAL knowledge. It only means that He has attended (1) a school which MAN has erected and, (2) offers information that MEN have provided, and, (3) uses (Lutheran) guidelines which MEN have founded.


What "school" did any of the Apostles go to? ONE. They went to the "school of LIFE"


The TRUTH is that the APOSTLES listened to the WORD, and the WORD REASONED with them. Their only "school" was the WORD. That is the school of LIFE, for within THAT "school" the WORD provides ---> the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE -- John 14:6



All in all, and this is my final post in the thread, there's a reason why this topic is confined to the unorthodox theology section...the existence of hell and its implications are mainstream Christian beliefs.


Stating the obvious. Sorry you have decided to end your involvement in this subject. To this point you have not proven at all that --- "ETERNAL TORMENT is a Biblical doctrine (teaching)"

"Mainstream christianity" is not a Biblically supported entity.


That "christianity" subscribes in part to HEARSAY as well as to pagan originated teachings... is an identification of it as the "FALSE PROPHET", named in the book of Revelation, which actually leads out in the system of RELIGION called BABYLON... which Book also instructs BELIEVERS (the PEOPLE of YHVH) to remove themselves from said system -- Rev 18:4 -- (one cannot COME OUT of something one is NOT already IN!)


Unfortunately the Majority of them, shall NOT LISTEN -- Matt 24:5 -- Matt 7:22-23



There is ample evidence that unrepentant sinners and unbelievers suffer in hell. Gnashing of teeth, the rich man begging Lazarus for even just a drop of water...these things are eternal, just like being in heaven is eternal. One can't be eternal forever without the other being eternal forever.


Really? I could not disagree MORE with you about what you just said. ALL men are tested by GEHENNA fire -- Mark 9:42-49


GOD is the GOD of PEACE -- Rom 15:33 -- where is the PEACE in such an observation?


GOD's MERCY endures FOREVER -- Psalm 136 (entire chapter) -- where is the MERCY in such an observation of "forever"?


CHRIST died for ALL SIN -- Col 1:20 -- and TOOK AWAY the SIN of the WORLD -- John 1:29 -- Why is SIN still there PW, causing GOD to disregard this (in your observation)?


You're "pretty learned"... answer with your KNOWLEDGE! :preach:


This life is GEHENNA Fire... symbolized in the book of Revelation as the Lake of FIRE -- which IS the 2nd death (death of the flesh-wage of sin). "HELL" (hades=grave) was cast into it, as well as adversity (satan), as well as every one which are "fearful" (hell believers for one) -- "Unbelieving" (all begin as UNBELIEVERS) -- "Abominable" -- see Prov 6:16 for "abominations - if any have at any time applied to YOU, then YOU are "abominable" -- "Murderers" (just speaking unkindly is such) -- "whoremongers" (a man looking lustfully fits this) -- Liars (everyone in the pool!), Idolators (have a favorite actor?), Sorcerers (drug users) -- need I say more?


Within your traditional "mainstream" observation, you take a PARABLE (written in symbolism) -- Luke 16:19-31 -- and note the LITERAL where it is convenient (HELL). Which is about as UNSPIRITUAL an observation as can be.


No offense intended to you, but any "atheist" can and DOES arrive at the conclusions that you do about this section of Scripture! -- :( -- Many UNBELIEVERS become "atheists", as this proposition which YOU SUPPORT, which IS the TOPIC of this discussion.... that being that GOD shall ETERNALLY TORMENT men.


Atheists find it completely UNREASONABLE for GOD (should he exist) to eternally torment men (and name this punishment as "JUST"), for misbehavior within an amount of time so SHORT, that GOD notes it as a VAPOR -- James 4:14


Just in a quick OVERVIEW here is wisdom... listen if you have ears to hear: ...this parable is NOT about "HELL", at all!


It is about those (who HAVE the riches of GOD = Christians) whose TONGUES are set afire of GEHENNA and actively CONDEMN men, which are made in the IMAGE of GOD -- James 3:6-10 -- and,


1. Uses the "rich man" as a figurative reference to the JEWS (and "Christians" which were/are) they which HAVE "Moses & the Prophets" - vs 29 --


2. Uses LAZERUS as a figurative reference to the GENTILES (which did NOT have the "riches" of GOD and were and ARE scorned by the "rich"), and,


3. Uses ABRAHAM (being the father of "faith") as a figurative reference to FAITH. There is a GREAT CHASM -- Luke 16:26 -- between those WITH FAITH, and those WITHOUT FAITH... yet they reside in the SAME PROXIMITY, speaking to one another, as in this Parable --Luke 16:23-24


YHVH God, nor CHRIST, nor HEAVEN, nor HELL , nor Angels, find any mention whatsoever in this PARABLE!!! ... :confused: Why? Because it is not about Heaven, or JESUS, or YHVH, nor is it about HELL, ...it is about FAITH ...which is given from GOD... unto the DEAD in this WORLD, which gives them LIFE from DEATH.


The "bosum of ABRAHAM" is not HEAVEN... it is the "bosum of FAITH" -- Heb 11:8-10 -- as He (ABRAHAM) is named in the "GENEOLOGY" -- Matt 1:1-2 -- of the AUTHOR of FAITH -- Heb 12:2


ABRAHAM was a SINNER, and did not and DOES NOT have the ability to FORGIVE SIN, nor to HAVE MERCY!


There is NO documentation that the "RICH man" actually did anything WRONG, nor is there for LAZERUS doing anything RIGHT!


This parable is about ALL MEN, and the deceptions which either lead them into understanding and the GOSPEL of PEACE, concerning ALL THINGS which is the VICTORY of the CROSS -- Col 1:20

Or, ...into the CONDEMNATION of the TONGUE -- James 3:6-10 -- which LOVE NOT the world (that GOD so LOVES), ...and which CONDEMN it, ...where CHRIST did NOT -- John 8:3-11 -- TEACHING FEAR instead of GOOD NEWS, which [fear] is CAST OUT by PERFECT LOVE -- 1 John 4:18


Yes, God is a merciful God, but he's also a jealous God and he's made it pretty clear what awaits unbelievers.


Are you kidding me, PW?


You stated you are pretty "well learned" in the original languages, so it should be safe to say that if indeed this is true, you must also be "well learned" in other facets of study, that are lesser, or require less time to obtain...


Anyone who has done any degree of study, KNOWS about "divine accomodation" (condescension)... Which is GOD as a perfect and completely knowledgeable being (as you would to a child, discussing ADULT premises), simplifies, and communicates with terminology that is specifically more elementary, in order for understanding to be conveyed to more elementary beings...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accommodation_(religion)


GOD is not "JEALOUS" in the same way as is a human being. For crying out loud! He DECLARED ALL THINGS, before they even BECAME "things" -- Isaiah 46:10


Jealousy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Negative Effects of Jealousy | eHow.com
Characteristics Of Jealousy | LIVESTRONG.COM



It is completely preposterous to maintain that He was "JEALOUS" of beings lesser than Himself (which is an emotion primarily ridden with SUSPICION, INSTABILITY, and INSECURITY). God is hardly UNSTABLE, SUSPICOUS, or INSECURE about ANYTHING, for goodness sake! ^_^



Every knee shall bow, that is certain, but even the demons know who Jesus is - yet they are still demons and still not in heaven with God.


Well... these are all speculations. That every knee BOWS (as did yours, before Him), shall He not turn away. He did not "turn away" from you, neither (being perfectly impartial - Prov 28:21 & 10 others) shall He turn from ANYONE bowing at the "KNEE" (which is the "knee" of the Heart, not the middle of your physical leg! ^_^)


And there is no promise of HEAVEN. New Jerusalem is NOT in HEAVEN... nor is anyone promised to go there.


Let me ask you (not that you will answer), but... Where is there a plan in place to save "demons"? And if there is none, ...WHY? Do you percieve that GOD does not LOVE "angels"?


Please do not speculate about "evil" appearing in Heaven within angels as this is UNBIBLICAL... also, ...GOD created EVIL -- Isaiah 45:7 -- so the reponsibility of the existence of EVIL falls to His creation of it, not upon "angels" which SUPPOSEDLY "FELL", from Heaven.



Though I could easily answer you with pages of TRUTH, I will leave you with this... GOD saved the WORLD and ALL within it... for He SO [eternally/unchangingly - Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8] ---> LOVES this WORLD...


He is the CREATOR and SAVIOR of it... I feel sorry for you that you do not BELIEVE in Him, as a successful GOD... rather, you believe Him to be as are YOU, ...JEALOUS of, and VENGENT against, ...those whom He foreknew TO FAIL... which is utterly UNREASONABLE. :doh:



PEACE... :groupray: ...willieH
 
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LutheranMafia

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Be angry with me for telling you, but it is the truth.
What makes you think I am angry with you? I have learned a lot from these debates. I've learned how to use a number of different on-line tools for looking at the Bible using the original languages and through a large array of different translations and accessing extended commentaries on particular verses. And just recently it has given me a new found respect for Martin Luther, who I really didn't think that much of before these debates. All-in-all I have found this debate very rewarding and I feel that I have learned a great deal.

You are just projecting your own anger onto me. You feel very insecure in your beliefs, which leads to frustration and anger. If you felt secure in your beliefs you could afford to listen to the opposing argument rather than just sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling that you know you are right.

The wages of sin is death.
These are real words with real meaning. This is God's Word, not something you can wave away lightly.
How am I waving away anything lightly? Unlike yourself I am not completely ignorant of the opposing aside of the argument. That is waving aside things lightly, refusing to listen to the opposing side no matter how much contact you have with it. That means that your beliefs cannot stand up to the test, you can't afford to listen to any opposing point of view or your conviction might faulter. My convinctions are on much firmer ground, so I can afford to listen closely to opposing view points without it overturning my belief system.
 
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LutheranMafia

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... all unbelievers become believers... Jesus own promise on that :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever
This clearly does not include everyone, or Jesus is lying in Matt 12:31, Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29.

... why do you doubt Jesus' word and listen to the words of sinners instead ?
Why do you doubt Jesus' words when he says that there are those who can never be forgiven?
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
Mark 3:29

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:31

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10
 
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strangertoo

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This clearly does not include everyone, or Jesus is lying in Matt 12:31, Luke 12:10 and Mark 3:29.

Why do you not see what it says , emphasises by repeating it?

" ... every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them ..."

how can you pretend this excludes anyone ??? ... it could not be written more inclusively of everyone

as for forgiveness , it fails some in this earth and the next and they do not seek mercy of God until their third life in the 'lake of fire' ...

but why should this be of concern to you now ? ... you can learn the Truth of this from God by ceasing sinning and receiving spirit baptism to be taught by God Himself ,without which no-one can be saved ... then you will understand from God , not sinners or your own interpretations of the words of saints ... all one needs from scripture is to know that sin is the ONLY thing in the way of knowing Jesus and God because they are known through Love and sin is not Loving... sin is abuse of others ... if you cannot believe that God is saviour of all even though it says so in scripture , if you doubt one scripture that is explicit because you interpret the context, then simply stop sinning and be taught by God, for there is a seal, there is no other way of salvation , then God will explain that the God of Love can accept no failure in any part of creation to accept His way of Love , not because He says so, but because He happens to be correct, it is the only way that works, He made it that way, it is inbuilt... no-one can oppose Love forever because sin doesn't work, doesn't deliver on it's promises. all get disillusioned eventually following greed, lying to others to get what they want, ignoring the misery of the poor, etc, etc... it leads to destruction of this world, but countless many are saved LATER [Rev 7:9-10] who are destroyed in this world at their own hands [Matt 7:13] ... just consider why God allows us to destroy ourselves , sets up the kingdom of perfect Love with the FEW [Matt 7:14] who Love perfectly now [Jude 1:14] who then act as kings and priests in the later salvation of many in the new earth we need after destroying this one...

why should God resuurrect all from 'hell' [Rev 20:13] , after all they killed themselves for sin,why bring them back to life if He had 'damned' them as sinners paradoxically claim ... religion of sinners says they are judged in this earth , no second chance, but clearly teh bible sattes that they are destroyed but saved later... but even the kingdom come saving many by works [Rev 20:13] at judgement day is not the end, why does God resurrect to the lake of fire after a second death removes men's sin et a second time [Rom 6:7] [and it is clear their spirit isn't 'dead' at all as some sinners claim it can 'die', but it is of God, it cannot 'die' even when men are destroyed as God shows the many sinners of this earth in their resurrection from hell -Matt 7:13, Rev 7:9-10, Rev 20:13

so if you read the whole of what Jesus said , you will eventually understand that NONE of it is untrue, only your misinterpretation which disagrees with some parts MUST be untrue...

so here is the clue , in case you have no intention of giving up sin and learning from God directly ,being saved in this life, here is the more complete version of Jesus' phrase you use to disprove his other words in your mind , not caring that you ignore part of what he said :-

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

clearly then this does not apply to the lake of fire, after a second death for continued sin in the new earth kingdom come... so you have rejected one part of what Jesus says by misunderstanding another ...

you have to stop sinning for salvation anyway, so why not now, then God will explain EVERYTHING in spirit baptism [John 16:13] ... that is all one really needs to learn from scripture, the way to be taught by God His pure Truth... and no-one gets saved without it , so ...

anyway. stop rejecting part of scripture to cling to interpretations of other parts which simply disagree ... God's Truth must be ONE Truth [unlike divided religion of sinners of course , which however will unite under Satan according to Jesus -Rev 13:3-4]]


Why do you doubt Jesus' words when he says that there are those who can never be forgiven?
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.
Mark 3:29

And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:31

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10

it is not me that 'doubts' them, but the rest of scripture taht disproves that re-interpretation of them... read it ALL, but in the end no-one is saved until they learn the Truth from God direct , not from choosing one of countless diverse re-interpretations of it by Satan through sinners ...

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

READ it ALL first anyway, don't pick bits out that in translations [and editing] seem to contradict other parts :-

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

most of all, do not decide what you believe until AFTER spirit baptism , look how many folks get deceived by religion, how divided it is trright down to individual beliefs ... ONLY because folks will not stop sinning and receive the ONE PURE Truth from God Himself [john 16:13] as Jesus promiosed all who actually follow him [saints , not sinners any longer -Jude 1:14] :-

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

to ignore so much scripture and so that God is Love of all creation will cost folks and earlier salvation... we know few become saints in this life [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8, Jude 1:14]
 
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he-man

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Why do you not see what it says , emphasises by repeating it? " ... every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them ..."how can you pretend this excludes anyone ??? ... it could not be written more inclusively of everyone
Everyone who repents and believes, else,

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Pro 13:2 A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.

3
He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.
 
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LutheranMafia

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Why do you not see what it says , emphasises by repeating it?

" ... every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them ..."

how can you pretend this excludes anyone ??? ... it could not be written more inclusively of everyone
Do you seriously believe that Rev 5:13 refers to Satan? As I said before, I do not believe that this refers to people in Gehenna / the lake of fire / the outer darkness. Also, when it says "every creature" do you think that it refers to bugs and fish?

as for forgiveness , it fails some in this earth and the next and they do not seek mercy of God until their third life in the 'lake of fire' ...
Where is there any reference to a "third life" in the Bible? The lake of fire is explicitly referred to as an eternal destination (Rev 20:10).

but why should this be of concern to you now ? ... you can learn the Truth of this from God by ceasing sinning and receiving spirit baptism to be taught by God Himself ,without which no-one can be saved ... then you will understand from God , not sinners or your own interpretations of the words of saints ...
So you recieve communications directly from God...?

so if you read the whole of what Jesus said , you will eventually understand that NONE of it is untrue, only your misinterpretation which disagrees with some parts MUST be untrue...
You are the one who is picking and choosing which verses to embrace and which to ignore, not me.

so here is the clue , in case you have no intention of giving up sin and learning from God directly ,being saved in this life, here is the more complete version of Jesus' phrase you use to disprove his other words in your mind , not caring that you ignore part of what he said :-
Man you are conceited. Here is the clue, if you are hearing the voice of God then you are probably schizophrenic. Not being swayed by schizophrenics hardly means that I do not struggle against sin, but your phrasiology of "no intention of giving up sin" suggests that you think that you have given up sin completely and are perfect.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

clearly then this does not apply to the lake of fire, after a second death for continued sin in the new earth kingdom come... so you have rejected one part of what Jesus says by misunderstanding another ...
And so you claim to have explained Matt 12:31 away without ever even actually addressing the subject.

you have to stop sinning for salvation anyway, so why not now, then God will explain EVERYTHING in spirit baptism [John 16:13] ... that is all one really needs to learn from scripture, the way to be taught by God His pure Truth... and no-one gets saved without it , so ...
The Bible makes it clear that anyone who thinks that they have completely stopped sinning is decieving themselves.

Your assertion that I consciously embrace sin is nothing short of a personal insult.

anyway. stop rejecting part of scripture to cling to interpretations of other parts which simply disagree ... God's Truth must be ONE Truth [unlike divided religion of sinners of course , which however will unite under Satan according to Jesus -Rev 13:3-4]]
You are guilty as charged. You have no answer to Matt 12:31, among many other verses, that you would rather sweep under the rug than address.

it is not me that 'doubts' them, but the rest of scripture taht disproves that re-interpretation of them... read it ALL, but in the end no-one is saved until they learn the Truth from God direct , not from choosing one of countless diverse re-interpretations of it by Satan through sinners ...
Since the vast majority of people who think they hear God are actually schizophrenic, I take it you think that schizophrenia leads to salvation.
 
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strangertoo

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Do you seriously believe that Rev 5:13 refers to Satan?

God makes no exceptions to His Love as you do ... Satan is simply the prodigal son of God with the task of trialling the Love of all , baptism of fire... so the time comes at the end for his trial too ...

As I said before, I do not believe that this refers to people in Gehenna / the lake of fire / the outer darkness.

the scripture is not about private opinions , God reveals all Truth Himself to all under grace [John 16:13] so there is no room for any doubt in those who actually follow Jesus ... God teaches Himself , as the new covenant states [Heb 8:8-12] ... pure absolute Truth from God direct to all saints... to anyone ready to stop sinning, to no-one who will not stop sinning yet :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Where is there any reference to a "third life" in the Bible? The lake of fire is explicitly referred to as an eternal destination (Rev 20:10).

after the second death, death is destroyed , no more 'hell' ... and death is denied , so that is the third life [for the most evil of men and Satan, those who still sin in the new earth kingdom come ...

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

clearly death cannot flee unless one is alive...

So you recieve communications directly from God...?

That is what Jesus promised all Christians -John 16:13- Truth direct from God ... one may resolve it as words, visions, or be visited by a messenger ['angelos'] , a man previously translated free of death - free to manifest and re-translate with God's communications...

all will receive the Truth from God this way eventually -Joel 2:28- but one must be free of sin first, most are not free of sin until after resurrection [Rom 6:7] so few are saved in this life -Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

You are the one who is picking and choosing which verses to embrace and which to ignore, not me.

I can only quote a few verses here, rely on you to read the rest for yourself ... but it is very obvious that divided religious deceits come mostly from disregarding much scripture... thus it is up to oneself to read it all else be deceived...

but perhaps you see that God's Spirit is the authority of Truth, NOT the trabslated ,edited scriptures , nor their pathetic re-interpretations tens of thousands of ways ... all one needs from scripture or life is to understand taht if one STOPS sinning God will baptise one into knowing ALL Truth from Him ...John 16:13 ... thus one needs not even have seen the scripture , and in fact Satan uses the scripture to delude the masses by re-interpreting it in mass religion of sinners that will spread to the whole world -Rev 13:3-4 - so one would be better off just stopping sin and being taught by God than learning the lies of sinners through mass religion of sinners... :)

Man you are conceited. Here is the clue, if you are hearing the voice of God then you are probably schizophrenic. Not being swayed by schizophrenics hardly means that I do not struggle against sin, but your phrasiology of "no intention of giving up sin" suggests that you think that you have given up sin completely and are perfect.

Read the scripture my friend, all who follow Jesus, all Jesus takes at his return, are SAINTS ... Jesus says he will take no sinners at all ... and I have never claimed to be a saint , so your accusations are in your own mind... and you are not allowed to voice this personal abuse here , so STOP NOW please ...God requires saints to be perfected in baptism of fire by Satan... read the scripture ...

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So I think you greatly err by calling Jesus schizophrenic just because he was perfect in Love and talked with God... so why would you want to abuse the saints who emulate Jesus and God requires to become perfect in Love ????

And so you claim to have explained Matt 12:31 away without ever even actually addressing the subject.

I wrote quite extensively about this passage, but didn't explain it away, just explained what teh rest of scripture says about its meaning for sake of those not yet baptised of the spirit [who would know once so baptised] ...
so please read

The Bible makes it clear that anyone who thinks that they have completely stopped sinning is deceiving themselves.

Well it would be a sin to so think, but then no-one does that I hope... it is God who forgives sins by looking on the heart of a man to see if one still has desire to sin... one cannot tell oneself , all men are capable of deceiving themselves so God tells us all Truth once He is pleased with our sincerity of desire to stop sinning and we have stopped all sins we realise to ourselves... the FIRST Truth God gives is the rather shattering , humbling Truth about all one's sins one does not admit to oneself... so the sincerely repentant sinner can STOP all sin to God's satisfaction, NOT HIS OWN... so you greatly err because you have not been baptised of the spirit, which implies you are still a sinner and have not impressed God yet with any will to stop... most folks live this life like that , are freed of sin by DEATH [Rom 6:7] not grace , are judged then by works in the new earth kingdom come , but a FEW must be perfect now who will rule in the kingdom come and be its priests under Jesus, the very image of Jesus... and they have to learn from God direct and they have to perfcet their Love in this life, no matter what you falsely accuse them of ... why ??? ... they likely will save you later , why abuse them in their trial of Love ???

Your assertion that I consciously embrace sin is nothing short of a personal insult.
it's not mine, it is the scripture's , and if you stop sinning then God will show you too your hidden sins you embrace, as He does for everyone eventually [Joel 2:28]
You are guilty as charged. You have no answer to Matt 12:31, among many other verses, that you would rather sweep under the rug than address.

sad my friend that you seek to judge instead of discuss... but simply stop sinning and God will baptise you into his Truth as Jesus promises all saints who follow him -John 16:13 ... then you will stop judging things before the time for judgement ... and indeed it will make you more humble, less ready to jump to conclusions with no evidence or false evidence...

Since the vast majority of people who think they hear God are actually schizophrenic, I take it you think that schizophrenia leads to salvation.

simply read the scripture, God teaches all who are His , all who are under grace , by His Spirit, not by scripture, not by bible school, not by priests school, not even by saints , this is the new covenant , read it and repent your sad attack of mud-flinging :-

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Psalms 71:17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.
 
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Timothew

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What makes you think I am angry with you? I have learned a lot from these debates. I've learned how to use a number of different on-line tools for looking at the Bible using the original languages and through a large array of different translations and accessing extended commentaries on particular verses. And just recently it has given me a new found respect for Martin Luther, who I really didn't think that much of before these debates. All-in-all I have found this debate very rewarding and I feel that I have learned a great deal.

You are just projecting your own anger onto me. You feel very insecure in your beliefs, which leads to frustration and anger. If you felt secure in your beliefs you could afford to listen to the opposing argument rather than just sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling that you know you are right.

How am I waving away anything lightly? Unlike yourself I am not completely ignorant of the opposing aside of the argument. That is waving aside things lightly, refusing to listen to the opposing side no matter how much contact you have with it. That means that your beliefs cannot stand up to the test, you can't afford to listen to any opposing point of view or your conviction might faulter. My convinctions are on much firmer ground, so I can afford to listen closely to opposing view points without it overturning my belief system.
Because of the tone of your posts. Believe whatever you wish, I won't argue with you any longer.
 
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he-man

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God makes no exceptions to His Love as you do ... Satan is simply the prodigal son of God with the task of trialling the Love of all , baptism of fire... so the time comes at the end for his trial too ...
Everyone who repents and believes, else,

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Pro 13:2 A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.

3
He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.
 
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strangertoo

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Everyone who repents and believes,

but that is what Jesus is saying, everyone will accept his RULE as king of all creation ... and his rule is Love... as he commanded in this world [to the few saints of this world] ... God wills that all nbe saved and sets out the plan of progressive salvation of men in stages ... not all ay once as sinners bizarrely claim, the mercy of God endures, it does not end in this life...

else,

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

again , check the tranmslation, not 'condemned' ,but judged... God judges righteously who is ready to Love, who needs more persuading to Love , it is a PROGRESSIVE thing , first Jesus alone with no sinning , he just Loves ... then the 144,000 saints , tens of thousands [literally ! - Jude 1:14] ,the FEW from this earth... the MANY being DESTROYED [Matt 7:13] ... but lATER countless MANY saved [Rev 7:9-10] who were destroyed ['apoleia' , the same term as used for crucifixion, which Jesus showed and promised all men survive - by their spirit as it is of God, indestructible, unlike the soul - i.e. the life - and the body]

Pro 13:2 A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.

3
He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.


yes, sin leads to destruction, but for a PURPOSE, man is FREED from sin in DEATH [Rom 6:7] so the ONLY wages of sin is death ... to free men from sin to start again to learn to Love, it is PROGRESSIVE , as in Jesus' parables of the kingdom, it GROWS, like a tree from a seed [him]

so one cannot judge the end yet , but one can believe Jesus who says ALL will accept His rule , all will accept Love, believe in it... your mistake is not understanduing that men CAN and WILL change... God has promised that He has the will and the emans to change everyone to Love from sin.. that is Jesus' task, to DESTROY sin, not to destroy anyone [because he cannot destroy spirit, it is of God , always returns to God, indestructible... but some take longer to Love and so be free of death ... some get it now, just the FEW God requires now to build and later rule under Jesus in the kingdom come... but what you forget is whom do they RULE OVER if not the many destroyed in this earth ?[Matt 7:13] ALL resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] , none left behind ! :)

it just takes some longer to learn to Love, God simply judges who is READY as they become ready to choose Love over sinning against others and Him...
 
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LutheranMafia

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again , check the tranmslation, not 'condemned' ,but judged...
There is no translation that uses the word judged here. Out of 18 translations on bible.cc, 16 say, "condemned". The only exceptions are Young's Literal Translation which says, "declared unrighteous", and God's Word Translation, which says "declared guilty". The word katadikaz&#333; also appears in Matt 12:7, Luke 6:37 and James 5:6; and in all 18 translations katadikaz&#333; is rendered as "condemn", "condemned" or "condemning".

God judges righteously who is ready to Love, who needs more persuading to Love , it is a PROGRESSIVE thing , first Jesus alone with no sinning , he just Loves ... then the 144,000 saints , tens of thousands [literally ! - Jude 1:14] ,the FEW from this earth... the MANY being DESTROYED [Matt 7:13] ... but lATER countless MANY saved [Rev 7:9-10] who were destroyed ['apoleia' , the same term as used for crucifixion, which Jesus showed and promised all men survive - by their spirit as it is of God, indestructible, unlike the soul - i.e. the life - and the body]
I agree with all of this, including the indestructibility of the spirit as contrasted with the destructible soul. I think that I believe in all but the soul/spirit part in generally the same manner that you do. It is quite unusual that I find anyone that agrees with me on the soul/spirit issue, but it seems to lead us to very different conclusions.

Jude 12-13 refers to evil people as "twice dead" (having died the second death) and "wandering stars for whom nether gloom / blackest darkness has been reserved forever." So evil people become soulless spirits trapped in the nether gloom of the after death state. It is forever because once the soul is destroyed there is no coming back.

your mistake is not understanduing that men CAN and WILL change...
Most will, people are generally good. But there is the 1% or 2% that are sociopaths. They will never change.

ALL resurrected from hell [Rev 20:13] , none left behind ! :)
Oh boy, that verse again... To He-man's mind Rev 20:13 is true because evil people are annihilated.
 
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LutheranMafia

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Because of the tone of your posts. Believe whatever you wish, I won't argue with you any longer.
That is because you don't like being called out on how one sided your opinion is. You can't possibly have a balanced opinion if you have no idea what those who disagree with you actually think. But you don't want to hear this because you really don't want to listen at all or know anything about what anybody else thinks, unless they agree with you. Thus your complete inability to give even a brief synopsis of the majority opinion among Christians.
 
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strangertoo

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That is because you don't like being called out on how one sided your opinion is. You can't possibly have a balanced opinion if you have no idea what those who disagree with you actually think. But you don't want to hear this because you really don't want to listen at all or know anything about what anybody else thinks, unless they agree with you. Thus your complete inability to give even a brief synopsis of the majority opinion among Christians.

the first problem with your methodology is that the bible states that the majority are WRONG , the 'whole world' -Rev 13:3-4 bar a very few saints [Jude 1;14, Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8]... and are destroyed for being wrong -Matt 7:13

the second problem is that God teaches all that are His Himself ... no opinion of men matters , He would not leave the salvation of mankind to the likes of the evil sinners who run currently-divided mass religion under Satan to deceive the masses ...

but the PROOF apart from scripture saying so, is that God is not divided, religion is divided right down to individual beliefs ... logic leaves no possibility that it is false , scripture confirms the lies at the very roots of religious tradition of men...

God simply SEALS His own with spirit baptism -John 16:13- without which no-one can be saved , no matter how they twist the written word... one cannot fool God , sin is not Love and God commands Love , no more sin, of all who are His ... God never said He forgives continual sin, only PAST sin... grace does not allow continual sin ...how could it when God commands Love and all sin is unloving abuse of others against God's command...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so you are arguing in vain over the wrong approach ... no-one gets to even know God and Jesus until they stop sinning , no-one gets saved until they are baptised of the spirit and that is sealed from sinners because God decides on the heart, what one desires, sin or Love... a DIVISION of whiom are ready to Love , saints, who can thus be forgiven PAST sins as they STOP sinning ... from those who are committed to sinning all their lives [and seek a religion that condones that sin with continual fake confessions without ceasing the sins , mass religion of sinners led by sinners]

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

IF one stops sinning then not only is that the ONLY way to be saved [now or later], but it is the only way to be SURE of what scripture means since we know it has been altered [there is no definitive original, all 'copies' are different, so have been edited...]

God however keeps His Truth PURE by baptising of the spirit into ONE Truth... which again proves absolutely that mass divided religion of sinners is FAKE ...just as Jesus and the saints say it must be by this time

so one can RELY on the MANY being wrong now , not right... ! scripture proves what one could see just by opening one's eyes to the divisions within religion, what they signify ...beyond doubt ...confirmed also in scripture ...confirmed in spirit baptism which very obviously is not in mass religion ... so the many are sealed out by their sin for now

WHY?

because God requires those who will run the kingdom to be as perfect as Jesus, this world went wrong because those in fake authority of abuse of fear are CORRUPTED by sin, follow Satan...

so God takes no sinners at Jesus return, only saints -Jude 1:14 - and so few because few men are ready to stop sinning and put up with the consequent abuse as Jesus did ... some have to be the first after Jesus to perfect Love :-

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

for this their past sins are forgiven, but not if they sin again :-

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

grace does not allow further sin as a rule ... if a saint were to sin there might be one more chance if other saints supported him, but who can find a saint in this world , they are one in three million according to Jesus' figures and an estimate of world population today... saints rarely even meet [but joy when they do] because of the work Jesus set them of finding the next generation of saints amongst all nations worldwide...

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Ezek 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

so to find the Truth, absolutely, simply stop sinning ... one cannot be saved without doing so , so one might as well face it now as later ... one can fool almost teh whole world of men, but one cannot fool God by twisting scripture ...as the many indeed do, and call it 'faith' ... but faith in continual sin and faked 'grace' is not faith in Love, faith in God

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

- sin is not Loving, so sinners cannot know God or Jesus, only fake versions of them

1 John 4:16 God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

- no-one is baptised to be able to be saved until the Love, which means stopping abusing others with sin FIRST... then one KNOWS from God , one on one -John 16:13- no use to anyone else of course, they will only invent ways to disbelieve until they too are baptised of the spirit [Joel 2:28], but a few have to be first to follow Jesus in Love for sake of all later ...
 
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strangertoo

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as long as it takes to see God alone is right and you are both being unLoving , so are wrong because you got trapped by words instead of seeking the spirit by stopping all sin and so being baptised by God to KNOW ALL TRUTH from God Himself -John 16:13 ... :)

the FIRST step , the foundation of God, is one's own , to choose to stop sinning because sin is unLoving abuse of others , it is what keeps God out ... arguing is NOT the answer for anyone , all one has to do and eventually all will, Jesus promises that, is take that first step, choose Love, not sin , once for all Love, not sin against folks any more , keep yourself from sin and God will help straight away with spirit baptism to know all one's sin so one can repent fully and STOP ... as all saints have done , following Jesus' proof that men can Love, have no need to sin... cannot be saved until they stop sinning ...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


then there is nothing to argue about, God only baptises into ONE Truth

and it is nothing like the teachings of sinners on the web or in churches or 'bible schools'

I have shown you the scripture that explains why this MUST be so

but by all means learn it from God directly , just cease abusing others with sin and God will teach , and there is no other way to be saved despite what sinners say ... they not only don't know, they cannot know ...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

so no-one can teach them as they refuse to stop sinning when God asks ... they will be freed from sin in death [Rom 6:7] -not by their fake 'grace for continual sin by faith in sinning' ideas ... I mean , what a BIG LIE that is , but UBIQUITOUS , and so many sinners who WANT to be sinners, not to Love and so follow Jesus ... but they want to SAY they are following Jesus as they continue to sin LOL? :-

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
 
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he-man

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There is no translation that uses the word judged here. Out of 18 translations on bible.cc, 16 say, "condemned". The only exceptions are Young's Literal Translation which says, "declared unrighteous", and God's Word Translation, which says "declared guilty". The word katadikaz&#333; also appears in Matt 12:7, Luke 6:37 and James 5:6; and in all 18 translations katadikaz&#333; is rendered as "condemn", "condemned" or "condemning".
else,
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]&#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#948;&#953;&#954;&#940;&#950;&#969; penalized, convicted, damn, doom, reprobate, sentence, pronounce guilty, condemn[/FONT][/FONT]

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be penalized.

Pro 13:3 He that keepeth his mouth keepeth his life: but he that openeth wide his lips shall have destruction.

Most will, people are generally good. But there is the 1% or 2% that are sociopaths. They will never change.

Oh boy, that verse again... To He-man's mind Rev 20:13 is true because evil people are annihilated.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead ones in it; and death and the grave gave up the dead which were in them: and they were judged, each person, according to their works.

You have that backwards..There are the 1% or 2% that are good and the rest are to be penalized with everlasting destruction!
 
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LutheranMafia

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You have that backwards..There are the 1% or 2% that are good and the rest are to be penalized with everlasting destruction!
Matt 12:32 says that people can be saved even if they actively speak out against Jesus. When it says only those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, to my mind that is a very small number of people, people who genuinely hate God.
 
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LutheranMafia

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The phrase "The pot calling the kettle black" is an idiom used to claim that a person is guilty of the very thing of which they accuse another.
The pot calling the kettle black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So how am I guilty of being profoundly incapable of accurately giving a synopsis of your beliefs? Just saying, "I'm rubber, your glue..." doesn't prove very much.


========================================================

BTW, I've been meaning to tell you that I found out that you definitely do not have religious OCD. Religious OCD apparently refers exclusively to people who obsess over condemning themselves.

Another thing that I've been meaning to bring up is a study of brain scans of people with strong political views. The study found that when hearing opposing points of view their brains would just shut down, the scan would show up almost completely black. In other words people with strong political views are kind of brain washed and are incapable of really hearing the other side. I'm certain that the same is true of strong religious points of view.

You seem to me to be a classic case of the above. I on the other hand do not have an a priori preconceptions to bias my point of view. I have no axe to grind. I treat the subject empirically, I take it as it comes and I am more than willing to embrace new or unfamiliar ideas if they seem to carry more weight. To prove it my view on the afterlife has been significantly altered by debating with Bob Ryan, so that now I believe that those in heaven are not aware of the passage of time. It is a significant shift in my point of view. Can you honestly say that your views have evolved in any way by your debating theology with anyone? :confused:
 
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