Question on the Statement of Faith for OBOB

[Rhamiel]

The Church recognizes her as every bit as Catholic as you are. She can say she isn't Catholic. You can say she isn't Catholic. The Church says she's Catholic. I trust the Church.



I don't ask you to sugarcoat, I ask you to learn what the Church teaches about persons Baptized Catholic, that you may stop preaching error about Christ's Church. Simply not believing, or not attending services any longer does not make someone less of a Catholic. Even formal excommunication doesn't make someone not Catholic. It makes them a bad Catholic perhaps, and likely a non-practicing Catholic, but still, a Catholic.

Out of respect for Antigone I am not going to argue with you anymore

she is the one who changed her faith icon, I just respect her enough to believe her when she says she is no longer a Roman Catholic

Antigone, I do not know if you are going to read this, I am sorry for using you as an example

 

[FullyMT]

I don't venture out of OBOB when I do make it the forum. I appreciate the thoughts and insights of non-Catholics present here and the opportunity to learn from them. I think they should be able to post and debate in here so long as they are not attacking Church doctrines. Let them debate anything else and for no reason should they be in trouble for arguing on the side of actual Church teaching.

 

[Martinius]

One problem is the use of labels. We can see that we expect someone who designates themselves a member of a specific religion (in this case, Catholic) to conform their posts to what that church teaches. This is the major reason I choose not to identify myself as Catholic in the profile that appears with my posts. Should we then say that I shouldn't be able to post on certain forums? If that is the case, then there should be a forum for those who want to discuss Catholic theology, dogmas and teachings without the expectation of having to conform to certain standards and artificial restrictions.

For example, we can discuss the current issue between the CDF and the LCWR, but can't bring the idea of ordaining women into the discussion (which is usually done by those who oppose it, as a way of marginalizing the LCWR and nuns in general). And as more and more Church doctrine gets placed in the category of "infallible" there will be less and less that anyone can really discuss.

I can understand the desire to eliminate trolls and to not encourage those who bait others with their posts, but the impression I get is that the Church and those who defend its teachings are on such shaky ground that they are afraid of anyone challenging any Church teaching. A faith that is built on a "rock", as Jesus said it would be, should show more confidence in its ability to withstand any challenges, whether from within (fellow Catholics) or from without (the rest of the world).

What is interesting about this forum is that some here treat it like the positions advocated or even just discussed in it actually have some bearing on the Church. If I said today that a woman could be and should be pope, nothing in the Church would change; it would have no affect on anyone in authority or the rules of the Church; I cannot make it happen just by saying it.

So why are most of you so afraid?

 

[Michie]

it is not lack of an icon
it is the fact that she is not a member of the Catholic Church

I think you mean not a practicing Catholic.

 

[Michie]

One problem is the use of labels. We can see that we expect someone who designates themselves a member of a specific religion (in this case, Catholic) to conform their posts to what that church teaches. This is the major reason I choose not to identify myself as Catholic in the profile that appears with my posts. Should we then say that I shouldn't be able to post on certain forums? If that is the case, then there should be a forum for those who want to discuss Catholic theology, dogmas and teachings without the expectation of having to conform to certain standards and artificial restrictions.

For example, we can discuss the current issue between the CDF and the LCWR, but can't bring the idea of ordaining women into the discussion (which is usually done by those who oppose it, as a way of marginalizing the LCWR and nuns in general). And as more and more Church doctrine gets placed in the category of "infallible" there will be less and less that anyone can really discuss.

I can understand the desire to eliminate trolls and to not encourage those who bait others with their posts, but the impression I get is that the Church and those who defend its teachings are on such shaky ground that they are afraid of anyone challenging any Church teaching. A faith that is built on a "rock", as Jesus said it would be, should show more confidence in its ability to withstand any challenges, whether from within (fellow Catholics) or from without (the rest of the world).

What is interesting about this forum is that some here treat it like the positions advocated or even just discussed in it actually have some bearing on the Church. If I said today that a woman could be and should be pope, nothing in the Church would change; it would have no affect on anyone in authority or the rules of the Church; I cannot make it happen just by saying it.

So why are most of you so afraid?

It's not a matter of being afraid. It is not what this forum was created for. You can get all these things some advocate for anywhere. Anywhere. It's nice to have a place on CF where we don't have to put up with more of the same. Although that seems to have failed.

Also the fact that those that identify as Catholic presenting a very confusing witness.

The Church is not a democracy & I see it presented in that fashion. That is false. Among the many other things cheered for here by those identifying themselves as Catholic regardless of the foundational teachings of the Church.

Soon this place is just going to blend with everything else instead of being something different.

 

[MikeK]

The Church is not a democracy & I see it presented in that fashion. That is false. Among the many other things cheered for here by those identifying themselves as Catholic regardless of the foundational teachings of the Church.

Can you share some examples? Maybe in another thread?

Soon this place is just going to blend with everything else instead of being something different.

It kinda seems like a less populated CAF with way less forums. I prefer it here becasuse, even w/ the politics board and even when we had a liberal subforum, most of the chatter was in here. Most boards that get big compatmentalize too much, and in the end it's just a bunch of like-minded people talking about how right they are.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The pope is elected in somewhat democratic fashion - admittedly from a tiny electorate. So maybe the church is somewhat democratic

 

[Needing_Grace]

Can you share some examples? Maybe in another thread?

It kinda seems like a less populated CAF with way less forums. I prefer it here becasuse, even w/ the politics board and even when we had a liberal subforum, most of the chatter was in here. Most boards that get big compatmentalize too much, and in the end it's just a bunch of like-minded people talking about how right they are.

Naw, on CAF, if you're not a right wing Republican, you get banned.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Naw, on CAF, if you're not a right wing Republican, you get banned.

I'm not a right wing nut and I have yet to be banned.

 

[Needing_Grace]

I'm not a right wing nut and I have yet to be banned.

If you post in the political areas, be careful. The mods in that section are arbitrary and capricious. I one got a suspension, someone mocked me for it, I reported it, he gets banned, he appeals, gets completely reinstated, I complain and get banned for it.

Why did I get suspended? I compared the Republican post-it note on pro-life (it's not an actual plank) to the snow on Luther's snow-covered dunghills.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

If you post in the political areas, be careful. The mods in that section are arbitrary and capricious. I one got a suspension, someone mocked me for it, I reported it, he gets banned, he appeals, gets completely reinstated, I complain and get banned for it.

Why did I get suspended? I compared the Republican post-it note on pro-life (it's not an actual plank) to the snow on Luther's snow-covered dunghills.

Eh, so far, so good on my end. I don't condone either political party, have said my fair share on both, and nothing.

 

[lindart]

I voted yes. It's time for honest, open dialog with fellow Christians!

 

[Rhamiel]

I think you mean not a practicing Catholic.

if someone does not self identify as a Catholic, should they be counted as a Catholic on this forum?

what if someone was baptised in the Catholic Church but is now a pagan and worships Odin? should they be allowed to debate theology in OBOB?

 

[Martinius]

Also the fact that those that identify as Catholic presenting a very confusing witness.

That may be because there is a lot of confusion among Catholics. There are different points of view in the Church, there are some Catholics who know more about the teachings of the Church than others do, there are many who don't understand some of the core teachings of the Church, there are some who just don't care (not typical on a forum like this, but very prevalent in the overall Catholic milieu).

The Church is not a democracy & I see it presented in that fashion. That is false. Among the many other things cheered for here by those identifying themselves as Catholic regardless of the foundational teachings of the Church.

Perhaps not a democracy (since that is a quite recent invention) but certainly there is a foundational history of collegiality, consensus building, and a fair level of autonomy for the "churches" that make up the Catholic world. There has been a trend toward consolidation of power and authority, but that is not the way it was at the beginning. The earliest councils testify to the range of ideas and practices that existed, and to the lack of an overriding single authority for the entire Church. Even with the Church not being a democracy, there are still some aspects of it that do operate in that manner, such as in the decisions made at a council. That the final decision is in the hands of a central authority should not prevent the rest of us from discussing it. And again, whatever is said on these forums will have no effect on any decision by any Church authority. So what is the problem with open and free discussion?

Soon this place is just going to blend with everything else instead of being something different.

I doubt that the forum will "blend with everything else" as long as the discussions here center around uniquely Catholic questions and issues. Even if the positions of some posters are not completely orthodox, they still are usually centered around doctrines, teachings and practices that are special to Catholicism.

 

[Antigone]

it is not lack of an icon
it is the fact that she is not a member of the Catholic Church

I am, in fact, officially a member of the Catholic church. I never requested to be removed, I've been baptised and confirmed. Officially I could call myself a Catholic. It'd be within the forum rules as long as I didn't argue about it -which I don't. I don't want to change my icon but with the current rules I'd have to. And that'd make me feel bad.

Besides that, my real problem is that under a Catholic icon I could make the exact same posts and nobody would be able to report me. The problem isn't in what I post, and that, in my mind, makes the current rules a little ridiculous.

if someone does not self identify as a Catholic, should they be counted as a Catholic on this forum?

Does it matter?

what if someone was baptised in the Catholic Church but is now a pagan and worships Odin? should they be allowed to debate theology in OBOB?

Again, nobody is allowed to go against Catholic doctrine. If any debate takes place with church doctrine as accepted wisdom and within that framework, why does it matter what someone believes? You can be interested in learning Chinese without being a Communist. If someone is not Catholic but is interested in it for whatever reason, why not let them in?

 

[Rhamiel]

Besides that, my real problem is that under a Catholic icon I could make the exact same posts and nobody would be able to report me. The problem isn't in what I post, and that, in my mind, makes the current rules a little ridiculous.

I can not go into a Ladies Resteroom and use the toliet
the problem is not using the toliet, it is the fact that I am not a lady

this is a Catholic forum, it is for Catholics
when non-Catholics come here and post that is great, but they are here as guests and should not debate or try to teach, this has allways been the rules

 

[Rhamiel]

I am, in fact, officially a member of the Catholic church. I never requested to be removed, I've been baptised and confirmed. Officially I could call myself a Catholic. It'd be within the forum rules as long as I didn't argue about it -which I don't. I don't want to change my icon but with the current rules I'd have to. And that'd make me feel bad.

I am sorry, I thought you left the Catholic Church
I am very sorry for my missunderstanding

 

[Antigone]

I am sorry, I thought you left the Catholic Church
I am very sorry for my missunderstanding

If it helps, I still consider myself Catholic, but not a very good one, so to avoid confusion I don't go about calling myself Catholic. Nor do I attend mass or take communion.

 

[QuantaCura]

It's still good to go to Mass even if you are not currently in a state where you can receive Holy Communion in good conscience. Pray the Anima Christi during Communion instead.

I know some people think if they go to Mass and not receive communion, they'll be judged. The fact is, most people don't pay attention, but if they do pass some sort of judgment, then the sin is solely on them. In such a case, praying the "Domine non sum dignus..." and taking it to heart will put you in the role of the publican in the parable of the pharisee and the publican and that should hopefully outwiegh any awkward feelings.

 

[Rhamiel]

If it helps, I still consider myself Catholic, but not a very good one, so to avoid confusion I don't go about calling myself Catholic. Nor do I attend mass or take communion.

oh well ok
i am not a good catholic either so