Why Is Jesus Called 'The Word' in John 1:1?
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Targums-Memra- John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.
Targums-Memra- John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.
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Hi 101c...
I think this moves us away from this thread title which is on Jesus as "The Word".
I do believe the Trinity and that the doctrine is biblical, and can be proven by the scriptures. If you would like to discuss this in another thread, create it and I would be happy talk about it.
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Response to to Candle glow on riches:
You are simply not looking at all that the scriptures say about wealth and you certainly miss the mark of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 6:19-21 because you don't take the totality of the text.
If that is the totality of teaching on riches you would be correct...BUT IT IS NOT! Look at how Paul addresses Timothy to instruct believers who are rich:
1 Timothy 6:17-19
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the TREASURE of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
Not only does this verse show you are wrong...but it but it also shows what Jesus meant in Matt 6:19-21. The point is if you are rich be willing to give out of the riches you have. In doing so you store up treasure in heaven.
The verse further confirms what I said in saying it is setting your heart on riches...that is the sin.
Let's look at Jesus also telling us this:
Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
Giving...can result in receiving even more both in this life and the next...except we leave that up to God.
What do you do with all the Proverbs on wealth that teach a right view of how to use wealth and also prove the sin is NOT of being rich but trusting in riches?:
Proverbs 3:9, 10
Honor the Lord from your wealth And from the first of all your produce; So your barns will be filled with plenty And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 11:28
He who trusts in his riches will fall, But the righteous will flourish like the green leaf.
Proverbs 14:24
The crown of the wise is their riches, But the folly of fools is foolishness.
Proverbs 22:4
The reward of humility and the fear of the Lord Are riches, honor and life.
Proverbs 24:3, 4
By wisdom a house is built, And by understanding it is established; And by knowledge the rooms are filled With all precious and pleasant riches
How about the wisdom of the excellent wife in Proverbs 31?
Proverbs 31:16-24
She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong. She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle. She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy.She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet. She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
Seems this is a woman that buys, sells, gets gain, but she has a right attitude towards her wealth because she gives to the poor and needy...and yet her family is finely dressed.
How about the wisdom of leaving an inheritance to your children?
Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.
How does one leave an inheritance without some degree of wealth?
Your example in Acts is a good example of people giving all they had...but did they have too? Clearly no! Peter confirms that when he says to Annanias:
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Clearly selling his land was not something Annanias had to do, nor did he have to give all his money, Peter told him that. The sin is that he lied about it.
How about Cornelius in Acts 10? Clearly a rich man:
Acts 10:1-4
Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.
He gave willingly to God of his riches, he was also seeking God. In doing so God hears him and sends Peter to this rich man and he receives salvation!
Now...if you think you can only take what Jesus said fine...but you're missing out ALL that God says. I will take the totality of scripture (which includes what Jesus said), on the subject of wealth because scripture is a whole.
Like I've been saying:
ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
You are simply not looking at all that the scriptures say about wealth and you certainly miss the mark of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 6:19-21 because you don't take the totality of the text.
If that is the totality of teaching on riches you would be correct...BUT IT IS NOT! Look at how Paul addresses Timothy to instruct believers who are rich:
1 Timothy 6:17-19
Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the TREASURE of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
Not only does this verse show you are wrong...but it but it also shows what Jesus meant in Matt 6:19-21. The point is if you are rich be willing to give out of the riches you have. In doing so you store up treasure in heaven.
The verse further confirms what I said in saying it is setting your heart on riches...that is the sin.
Let's look at Jesus also telling us this:
Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
Giving...can result in receiving even more both in this life and the next...except we leave that up to God.
What do you do with all the Proverbs on wealth that teach a right view of how to use wealth and also prove the sin is NOT of being rich but trusting in riches?:
Proverbs 3:9, 10
Honor the Lord from your wealth And from the first of all your produce; So your barns will be filled with plenty And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 11:28
He who trusts in his riches will fall, But the righteous will flourish like the green leaf.
Proverbs 14:24
The crown of the wise is their riches, But the folly of fools is foolishness.
Proverbs 22:4
The reward of humility and the fear of the Lord Are riches, honor and life.
Proverbs 24:3, 4
By wisdom a house is built, And by understanding it is established; And by knowledge the rooms are filled With all precious and pleasant riches
How about the wisdom of the excellent wife in Proverbs 31?
Proverbs 31:16-24
She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong. She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night. She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle. She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy.She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet. She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land. She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
Seems this is a woman that buys, sells, gets gain, but she has a right attitude towards her wealth because she gives to the poor and needy...and yet her family is finely dressed.
How about the wisdom of leaving an inheritance to your children?
Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children, And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous.
How does one leave an inheritance without some degree of wealth?
Your example in Acts is a good example of people giving all they had...but did they have too? Clearly no! Peter confirms that when he says to Annanias:
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Clearly selling his land was not something Annanias had to do, nor did he have to give all his money, Peter told him that. The sin is that he lied about it.
How about Cornelius in Acts 10? Clearly a rich man:
Acts 10:1-4
Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” And fixing his gaze on him and being much alarmed, he said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God.
He gave willingly to God of his riches, he was also seeking God. In doing so God hears him and sends Peter to this rich man and he receives salvation!
Now...if you think you can only take what Jesus said fine...but you're missing out ALL that God says. I will take the totality of scripture (which includes what Jesus said), on the subject of wealth because scripture is a whole.
Like I've been saying:
ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
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My apology.
That would be my fault for inviting 101c to start the thread.
It won't happen again.
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candle glow
whatever I want to be
Paul tells us not to fix our hopes on riches. That sounds completely consistent with exactly what Jesus told the rich young ruler when he said "sell what you have, give it to the poor and come follow me".
Also, this is further backed up by Paul clarifying that we should NOT be rich in material wealth, but to be rich in good works. Did you even read the verse before you posted it, ebed? I think it also speaks volumes that you deliberately chose NOT to highlight that particular part of the sentence. Ironically, your lack of highlighting it, has now highlighted it all the more; much like the phrase, " deafening silence".
So what, "be generous and ready to share" automatially refers to material wealth in your mind? When someone talks about sharing, you see dollar signs instead of people giving to one another out of love? That's certainly what it looks like.
You don't need money in order to share. Or, is that what you are telling us? We can't show love without money? Sounds like Jesus knew exactly what he was talking about when he told us we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other (matthew 6:24)
I notice you not only put "treasure" in bold red, but it's the only word in the entire verse that you actually capitalized. But what treasure is Paul talking about? He calls this treasure "a good foundation for the future" which we get by sharing what we have with others.
Compare the two verses, this one from Paul and the one from Jesus:
Jesus said:
and
"Paul said:
They are saying the same thing. You have no regarding the justification of materialism here, Ebed.
You say:
Actually, no, that's not the point either Jesus nor Paul made. That point does not exist in either verse. YOU are interpreting that from what was said. I guess it's your loop hole. As long as the rich are willing ot share a few pennies, they'll be fine, but that's not what Jesus said and it's not what Paul said.
No, I won't let you confuse sharing with materialism, ebed. Sharing is what the kingdom of Heaven is all about. Materialism and the accumulation of wealth is NOT the same as sharing.
The prospertiy gurus use this one, too. They shout, "give to God and he'll give back to you", a doctrine which they've applied to money and as a result has spawned some of the worst abuses of Christianity in history.
It's just another convenient doctrine for holding on to wealth which totally misses the point of what Jesus meant when he said "give".
In examples where the writer's teachings are consistent with what Jesus taught, fine. In examples where the writer's teachings are NOT consistent with what Jesus taught, Jesus wins. That is because, whatever may have happened in the OT, Jesus came to bring us the NT.
Attempts to go back to the OT to find ways around what Jesus taught will only end up with you fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven as Jesus preached it. He said to Nicodemus that he would not be able to even see the Kingdom until he was ready to let go of all his old ways and be born again into a completely new set of values.
Jesus was teaching those new values, but he was almost constantly up against an entire culture which kept saying "but what about this verse or that verse" in an attempt to discredit his new ways, very similar to what's happening with you and these verses from proverbs about the glory of materialism.
You have very clearly, and dishonestly, misrepresented the story. It's true that Ananias did not have to follow Jesus. None of us do. Peter was rebuking him because Ananias was PRETENDING to follow Jesus. Ananias claimed that they had given Peter everything, in accordance with what Jesus taught about forsaking all and sharing everything in common, but he LIED.
THAT is why Peter rebuked Ananias. Now here you are, quite dishonestly trying to change Peter's rebuke into a teaching AGAINST a need to follow Jesus' teachings about material possessions. Really, ebed, shame on you.
Also, I notice you did not deal with the verse I posted from Jesus from Luke 14:33.
He's talking to a multitude of ordinary people. This verse is followed by some pretty heavy teaching about the need for would-be followers to count the cost before claiming to want to be his followers. He was trying to tell them they he would ask them for everything, including their families, their material wealth and even their lives.
Then he follows that up with:
You clearly have an issue with materialism, ebed. Ordinarily I wouldn't have a problem with your problem (as we all struggle with greed to some degree), but if you are teaching others, here on this public forum, that they can ignore what Jesus said about it and still be okay, then I do have a problem with that.
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I have no problem whatsoever with materialism. You also really try to hard to make an issue of what I said which is clearly scriptural.
Let me also add that again you've made an assertion NOT based on knowledge. You have know idea what I give to the Lord, whether I'm wealthy, or anything of that nature...yet you jump to a conclusion that I have a problem with "materialism"?
Just for purposes of giving you *some* insight on how I live, I look to this section of the Proverbs to keep my perspective:
Prov 30:8, 9:
Two things I asked of You, Do not refuse me before I die: Keep deception and lies far from me, Give me neither poverty nor riches; Feed me with the food that is my portion, That I not be full and deny You and say, “Who is the Lord?” Or that I not be in want and steal, And profane the name of my God.
Again you like making assertions based on your thoughts. Perhaps soon the Lord will correct you on that.
You be blessed.
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candle glow
whatever I want to be
I'm looking at the evidence I have available to me, ebed. This is an internet forum where I all I have are your words. Of course I don't know what kind of giving you do, and neither do I want to know; that is between you and God. But, it is precisely because all I have is your words, that I have NOT jumped to conclusions.
I never once challenged you on what you give personally. I have ONLY challenged you on what you've actually said here in the forum regarding generalities and principles.
My conclusion that you have a problem with materialism is based on what you've said, not what you do. I have been VERY careful to ALWAYS use quotes when forming conclusions about where you are coming from, along with explanations regarding those quotes and exactly how/why I've come to my conclusions.
From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, right?
I challenge you to show ANYWHERE in this thread where I've come to a conclusion about you, personally, and not used quotes and explanations to explain my conclusions.
It's not like your problem with materialism is unique. We ALL struggle with it to some degree. But understanding that materialism IS a very serious problem is only the very first step.
Yes, it's true, ebed. You got me. I do like "making assertions based on my thoughts". But, that begs the question, upon what do you base YOUR assertions? Something other than your thoughts? One wonders why God bothered to give us a brain at all, right?
But no, wait, that's the whole point of convenient doctrines, isn't it? We're not supposed to think too deeply about them; we're just supposed to enjoy the convenience they bring for us.
But, lets assume, for a moment, that you are correct; I AM an ignorant whatever needing correction from the Lord for challenging you. Can you describe this correction?
Will he show me that I was wrong for challenging you on your dishonesty regarding your Ananias example? You didn't respond to that; probably a wise move for someone being exposed. Keep it quiet and hope it goes away, right?
Anyway, whatever this rebuke may be regarding my interaction with you, I'm still waiting for it. But considering that this whole time I've been preaching Jesus as the cornerstone, I somehow doubt I'll be receiving this supposed rebuke.
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If you don't see it, it really doesn't matter. As far as dishonesty. If you see what I said about Annanias as dishonesty...all I can say is wow.
Look at the passage itself...and DON'T infer anything...and show me where it says Annanias HAD to sell his property and give the profit to the church.
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candle glow
whatever I want to be
;
"By their fruits you shall know them". Look at your fruits. ebed. Concerning this particular argument, the most significant point you've made is that Jesus' teachings mean nothing compared to any teaching one can dig up from the Old Testament.
In other words, there is not even any point in distinguishing from the Old Testament and the New Testament; according to your doctrine, it's all the same.
How hopeless for those of us who put our faith in Jesus as the Word of God. According to your doctrine, Job, or Abraham or Solomon, or whomever we choose can just as easily be our savior, because it's all the word of God, right? How convenient.
Except, that's not what Jesus says, or even what the Bible itself says. The Bible gives the title of "the word of God" to NO ONE except Jesus. There is a VERY good reason for that.
Regarding your dishonesty, it's quiet clear that you've made the argument Peter was rebuking Ananias for thinking he must forsake all to follow Jesus. Your assumption is that Ananias was wrong for thinking he must forsake his materialism to follow Jesus, and that was the point of Peter's rebuke.
The dishonesty is that Peter was NOT rebuking his for thinking he must forsake materialism for Jesus, but that Ananias wanted to claim something (eternal life) which he was not entitled to (because he LIED about forsaking all).
This is exactly what Jesus said about people who try to serve two masters; they will end up cheating on one or the other. Ananias thought he knew better than Jesus. He thought to himself, " I don't really need to give up everything, that would be stupid". and as a result of his dishonesty, the was killed by God.
God is not looking for Luke-warm followers; those kind of followers make him want to vomit. (Revelation 3).
Jesus is looking for followers who want to do what he says just because he says to do it.
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That would be correct...*except* in this case there was no fruit.What Annanias did was made known by revelation to Peter.
Another leap you make not based on knowledge.
If only you knew it.
That's clearly a play on words as well as you not wanting to admit a wrong conclusion. Peter told Annanias the same thing I said...basically saying it belonged to Annanias and he could do as he wished with the land or the money. It was Annaias that chose to lie
He's also looking for those who aren't self righteous...and you're proving you're loaded with it.
Be blessed of the Lord.
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the most striking thing - when it comes to Jesus as The Word - is when we understand what John really meant when he called Jesus the Word. John was a jew and he spoke certainly arameic. In Jesus time the hebrew bible had been translated in ararameic by rabbis. This translations was called Targum. In this translation the word memra was often used - and memra is the arameic word for Word.
I will now give some exemples where they have translated the word memra in targum:
Gen 1:3
And the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] said, “Let there be light,” and there was light by his Memra.”
Gen 1:27
And the Word [Memra] of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the Lord, the Lord created, male and female created He them."
Gen 3:8
And they heard the voice of the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] walking...
In our bibles - psalm 33:6 says
By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth
Many people believe that when John called Jesus for Logos - who is the greek word for Word, they believe that John was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy - but this points to a very Jewish belief of the word of God from Tanakh and Torah itself. When John wrote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Verse 14: The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us
It was in the same context as Targum - And I believe that John really belived that Jesus was the Word and that the Word was God!
I will now give some exemples where they have translated the word memra in targum:
Gen 1:3
And the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] said, “Let there be light,” and there was light by his Memra.”
Gen 1:27
And the Word [Memra] of the Lord created man in His likeness, in the likeness of the Lord, the Lord created, male and female created He them."
Gen 3:8
And they heard the voice of the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] walking...
In our bibles - psalm 33:6 says
By the Word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth
Many people believe that when John called Jesus for Logos - who is the greek word for Word, they believe that John was influenced by Hellenistic philosophy - but this points to a very Jewish belief of the word of God from Tanakh and Torah itself. When John wrote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Verse 14: The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us
It was in the same context as Targum - And I believe that John really belived that Jesus was the Word and that the Word was God!
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I would disagree with this based on the context you provide.
That God created by His word, directly reflect the power of God in creation, as the Psalmist said in Psalm 33:6-9:
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.
It is also stated in Hebrews that God holds all things together by the "word of his power":
Hebrews 1: 1-4:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
The argument I make in John Is that he is giving Jesus title as "The Word" The context makes clear that "The Word" is God the Creator:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
It's my position that vss 3, 4, and 5 refer back to the title The Word.
So I agree John is addressing a Greek speaking society and is using "Logos" intentionally in the "Greek sense" as a title for Jesus he is using Word to mean Jesus is God the Creator, The Light of men.
I shared this earlier as the reason I believe the title "The Word" is not referring to to spoken words:
Jesus as Logos, or Cosmic Christ (Part 1) | The Jesus Question
Jesus as Logos, or Cosmic Christ (Part 2) | The Jesus Question
One things for sure...we will all know on the other side...
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candle glow
whatever I want to be
Of course it was Ananias's choice to lie. That is not in dispute. The dishonest part is where you try to claim Peter's rebuke was because Ananias thought he must obey Jesus in order to be a Christian.
No one MUST obey Jesus. Obediecene comes as a result of people who want to apply the values Jesus gave for the Kingdom of Heaven. He set the standards for what it means to be a citizen of that Kingdom. If you want to be a part of it, you must apply it's values.
That is what forsaking all and sharing all things in common, like Jesus and his followers, is all about.
No one is forced to do that, just as Peter said to Ananias. Ananias was rebuked, and then killed by God, because he wanted to say "Lord Lord", but then not obey Jesus, JUST like Jesus said people try to do, in Matthew 7.
However, you've taken this example as confirmation that it is not mandatory to obey Jesus, and you've done so on the basis that Peter said so. How dishonest!
The fruit of Ananias' actions were a corrupted testimony of Jesus' teachings. He wanted to claim membership in the Kingdom, but he didn't want to apply the values of that kingdom. As a result, anyone looking on would see a shallow representation, lacking in the power of those values.
The same thing happens today and is a huge reason why so much of the world is fed up with Christianity. They see a bunch of people saying "Lord Lord", but they don't see the power of the Kingdom because it's members make excuses not to obey Jesus.
When someone comes along and points that out, these so-called Christians get angry and accuse them of being self righteous. How typical.
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I would disagree with this based on the context you provide.
That God created by His word, directly reflect the power of God in creation, as the Psalmist said in Psalm 33:6-9:
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.
It is also stated in Hebrews that God holds all things together by the "word of his power":
Hebrews 1: 1-4:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
The argument I make in John Is that he is giving Jesus title as "The Word" The context makes clear that "The Word" is God the Creator:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
It's my position that vss 3, 4, and 5 refer back to the title The Word.
So I agree John is addressing a Greek speaking society and is using "Logos" intentionally in the "Greek sense" as a title for Jesus he is using Word to mean Jesus is God the Creator, The Light of men.
I shared this earlier as the reason I believe the title "The Word" is not referring to to spoken words:
Jesus as Logos, or Cosmic Christ (Part 1) | The Jesus Question
Jesus as Logos, or Cosmic Christ (Part 2) | The Jesus Question
One things for sure...we will all know on the other side...
Hello ebedmelech! I will read this articles!
Thanks!
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Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
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I would disagree with this based on the context you provide.
That God created by His word, directly reflect the power of God in creation, as the Psalmist said in Psalm 33:6-9:
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deeps in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.
It is also stated in Hebrews that God holds all things together by the "word of his power":
Hebrews 1: 1-4:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
The argument I make in John Is that he is giving Jesus title as "The Word" The context makes clear that "The Word" is God the Creator:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
It's my position that vss 3, 4, and 5 refer back to the title The Word.
So I agree John is addressing a Greek speaking society and is using "Logos" intentionally in the "Greek sense" as a title for Jesus he is using Word to mean Jesus is God the Creator, The Light of men.
I shared this earlier as the reason I believe the title "The Word" is not referring to to spoken words:
Jesus as Logos, or Cosmic Christ (Part 1) | The Jesus Question
Jesus as Logos, or Cosmic Christ (Part 2) | The Jesus Question
One things for sure...we will all know on the other side...
Hello again ebedmelech! I have read the first article - and in the article it says this:
When John penned his Gospel in the late first century, the concept of Logos that he most likely had in mind was the concept set forth by the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo (20 B.C. A.D. 50)
I disagree - or in other words - I dont believe that John had the same concept. I believe that John read targum and believed that the Word of God was God but in the same time distinct from God the father.
I believe that John had a jewish belief when it comes to "the Word"
But I agree with you when you said: "One things for sure...we will all know on the other side"
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