Where does the atheist/humanist get their morality from?

spiritualwarrior77

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There is no such thing as Darwinian atheism.

I'm callin' Poe. There's no way you actually believe what you're saying.

:confused:

Most atheists I know are Darwinists.
Most Darwinists I know are atheists.

You are confusing me, IAmCatwoman.
 
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No, because there is really no such thing as a Darwinist. There's such thing as an Evolutionist, to some anyway, though personally I find such labels useless.

What you're saying is "people who believe in Darwin", in which case I hope we're all Darwinist since it's fairly well documented that Darwin was in fact a human being that existed.

Are you implying people who believe the principles and theories Darwin suggested? Some people believe some of them. Some people don't. Some people see their practical application. But absolutely no one believes we should be actively applying them. Darwin studied non-human animals my friend - that's where he got his conclusions from. He wasn't presenting a moral system. He was presenting an examination of how creatures typically react. In fact I see more CHRISTIANS who seem to want to follow that "survival of the fittest" scenario. Look at the amount of Christians who want to remove public services and what not. But no one bases their moral system on that. Absolutely no one.

You are making things up. Your attempts to slander me and my beliefs is very offensive. And I know if I did it to yours, I'd probably be banned.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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No, because there is really no such thing as a Darwinist. There's such thing as an Evolutionist, to some anyway, though personally I find such labels useless.

What you're saying is "people who believe in Darwin", in which case I hope we're all Darwinist since it's fairly well documented that Darwin was in fact a human being that existed.

Are you implying people who believe the principles and theories Darwin suggested? Some people believe some of them. Some people don't. Some people see their practical application. But absolutely no one believes we should be actively applying them. Darwin studied non-human animals my friend - that's where he got his conclusions from. He wasn't presenting a moral system. He was presenting an examination of how creatures typically react. In fact I see more CHRISTIANS who seem to want to follow that "survival of the fittest" scenario. Look at the amount of Christians who want to remove public services and what not. But no one bases their moral system on that. Absolutely no one.

You are making things up. Your attempts to slander me and my beliefs is very offensive. And I know if I did it to yours, I'd probably be banned.

Please cut and paste were I have slandered you! As far as I am aware we are in a debate. We disagree. I make some strong statements. This is not slander!

A Darwinist is someone who believes in Darwinism. It's a common term.
Darwinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whatever Darwin's intentions, social-Darwinism has been the inevitable and logical result. In a nutshell... survival of the fittest.

The fact that some Christians seem to be living this philosophy doesn't make it Christian. If you read the New Testament, it is full of exhortations to help the poor, the sick, the needy, to share, forgive, be peaceable, loving, kind, patient etc.

A society based on Christian ethics would be... :thumbsup:
 
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Eudaimonist

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Where do you get your ideas about what is right and what is wrong from?

Philosophy, in particular Virtue Ethics.

Who gets to decide this for society?

No one "decides" what is right or wrong. This is discovered. I would hope, of course, that the best notions of right and wrong will eventually prevail in the culture because they will be understood to be sensible and promotive of human well-being.

What's makes your morality more moral than mine?

Assuming my morality is closer to correct than yours, it will be so because it better identifies and satisfies the natural standard of goodness that applies to human beings, and will thus give people a better chance of flourishing as human individuals in this life.

Where does the conscience come from?

This is a natural human psychological capacity.

Whose to decide who's conscience is 'correct'?

Every individual must use their own best judgment.

What's to stop the 'elite' deciding that, under 'survival of the fittest', they are more than justified to dominate the rest of us?

Nothing, and nothing ever can prevent this. However, the "elite" will lose in the arena of ideas. A well-justified ethics can be used to defeat such a faction. The pen is mightier than the sword.

Why does every society under 'humanism' decay (and yet the Judeo-Christian ethic remains as strong as ever)?

This is not a fact, sorry.

Isn't the logical conclusion of a 'humanist' society built on the principles of Darwinism, one of domination by a dictatorial elite?

Darwin wasn't an ethicist. No one would build a society on Darwinism any more than on quantum physics without seriously misunderstanding what those fields of knowledge are.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Whatever Darwin's intentions, social-Darwinism has been the inevitable and logical result.

Complete rubbish.

It would make just as much sense to say that nuclear bombs are the "inevitable and logical result" of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, ignoring the fact that Einstein wasn't advancing an ethical or political platform.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

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This is a question for atheists and humanists...
Where do you get your ideas about what is right and what is wrong from?
We get them in the same way everybody else get them. It´s like asking "Where do atheists get their movements from (if not from God)?"

Who gets to decide this for society?
Depends on the system and structure of society.
What's makes your morality more moral than mine?
Not my claim. Can´t answer this question.
Where does the conscience come from?
Do you want an exhaustive explanation, or just an unsupported claim like "from God"?
Whose to decide who's conscience is 'correct'?
Nobody.
What's to stop the 'elite' deciding that, under 'survival of the fittest', they are more than justified to dominate the rest of us?
The fact that we are more than them, just for starters.
Why does every society under 'humanism' decay (and yet the Judeo-Christian ethic remains as strong as ever)?
Examples?
Isn't the logical conclusion of a 'humanist' society built on the principles of Darwinism, one of domination by a dictatorial elite?
You would have to present that logic to us so we can consider its validity.
 
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Skavau

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This is a question for atheists and humanists...
Where do you get your ideas about what is right and what is wrong from?
My mind, generally. I am influenced by peers, friends, family, altruism and empathy. I just to derive them from reason as often as possible though given that morals in part derive from compassion of others they are influenced by emotion.

Who gets to decide this for society?
Society, collectively. No-one in particular gets to declare what ought or ought not over a diverse group of millions.

What's makes your morality more moral than mine?
Tell me more about your morality and I'll be able to answer.

What's to stop the 'elite' deciding that, under 'survival of the fittest', they are more than justified to dominate the rest of us?
By way of consent: More of us than them.

Why does every society under 'humanism' decay (and yet the Judeo-Christian ethic remains as strong as ever)?
What societies are you referring to?

Isn't the logical conclusion of a 'humanist' society built on the principles of Darwinism, one of domination by a dictatorial elite?
No.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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You would have to present that logic to us so we can consider its validity.
Darwinism = survival of the fittest.
The 'fittest' (those stronger, more powerful, wealthier etc) are justified to maintain their position under social Darwinism.
Hitler used his Darwinism (and Theosophy) to justify his 'race theory' for eg.
 
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Skavau

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Darwinism = survival of the fittest.
The 'fittest' (those stronger, more powerful, wealthier etc) are justified to maintain their position under social Darwinism.
Hitler used his Darwinism (and Theosophy) to justify his 'race theory' for eg.
Hitler wasn't a humanist, mate.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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Society, collectively. No-one in particular gets to declare what ought or ought not over a diverse group of millions.

Really? That's not what happened in Hitlers Germany, Mao's China, Stalin's Russia etc. A few dominated the many. Why? Because the populations where weakened by relativistic morality via atheism, occultism and humanism and were seduced into accepting these tyrants!
 
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Eudaimonist

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Darwinism = survival of the fittest. The 'fittest' (those stronger, more powerful, wealthier etc) are justified to maintain their position under social Darwinism.

Darwinism =/= social Darwinism. The Theory of Evolution makes no statements whatsoever about ethics or politics, e.g., who should maintain a social position.

Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have been lied to. You have been used.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Skavau

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Really? That's not what happened in Hitlers Germany, Mao's China, Stalin's Russia etc. A few dominated the many. Why? Because the populations where weakened by relativistic morality via atheism, occultism and humanism and were seduced into accepting these tyrants!
You asked what ought, not what is or what was. There are plenty of examples of dictatorships and theocracies across the planet right now and I am in favour of their removal and the emancipation of their citizens.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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You asked what ought, not what is or what was. There are plenty of examples of dictatorships and theocracies across the planet right now and I am in favour of their removal and the emancipation of their citizens.

Glad to hear it :thumbsup:
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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Darwinism =/= social Darwinism. The Theory of Evolution makes no statements whatsoever about ethics or politics, e.g., who should maintain a social position.

Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have been lied to. You have been used.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Social Darwinism is the inevitable result of the Theory (incorrect I might add) of Evolution. You might not agree with it, but many will and take it to it's logical conclusion... a dominant elite class.
 
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Skavau

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Depends on your definition of humanist.
If a humanist is someone who believes the highest moral authority is the human... Hitler was a humanist.
Depends on if you're interested in just making up definitions. If your definition of humanist is that broad it could effectively lead to any circumstance (barring rule by deity) and no prediction whatsoever could be made on the consequences of 'rule by human'. Certainly the progression of nationstates in Western and Northern Europe as well as the USA, Canada, Japan, Australia and New Zealand suggest that secular democracy is just as likely if not more likely the logical conclusion of humanism.

For your reading: Humanismhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
 
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Skavau

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Social Darwinism is the inevitable result of the Theory (incorrect I might add) of Evolution. You might not agree with it, but many will and take it to it's logical conclusion... a dominant elite class.
[citation needed]

The biological theory of evolution has nothing to say on morality. You do not derive what ought from what is.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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[citation needed]

The biological theory of evolution has nothing to say on morality. You do not derive what ought from what is.

No it doesn't have anything to say about morality. This doesn't mean it won't be used for such purposes. The 'struggle' for survival eventually produces Mein Kamf (my struggle).
 
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