Where does the atheist/humanist get their morality from?

spiritualwarrior77

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This is a question for atheists and humanists...
Where do you get your ideas about what is right and what is wrong from?

Who gets to decide this for society?
What's makes your morality more moral than mine?
Where does the conscience come from?
Whose to decide who's conscience is 'correct'?
What's to stop the 'elite' deciding that, under 'survival of the fittest', they are more than justified to dominate the rest of us?
Why does every society under 'humanism' decay (and yet the Judeo-Christian ethic remains as strong as ever)?
Isn't the logical conclusion of a 'humanist' society built on the principles of Darwinism, one of domination by a dictatorial elite?

Wondering...
 

Beanieboy

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I question if the only reason a person is moral is ONLY because they are forced to obey their god or religious book, if they are being moral at all.

Would you really appreciate a birthday gift that I give you only because I feel that I was obligated to buy it for you?

Or would you appreciate a gift given to you, not out of obligation, but to show their love for you?

Christians, for example, are to love their neighbor as themselves, and yet, do we? Do we let someone over in traffic to exit because that is what we would want someone to do for us? Do we not judge others because we ourselves don't like being unfairly judged?

And even then, we have a hard time following it.

So, if the bible says we should act this way, give more than we are asked, to give without asking what's in it for us, not asking to be paid back but rather pay it forward to someone else, and yet, we don't act that way, where are we getting our morals from?

For me, our conscience is what I have come to believe is God. I believe that is what God breathed into Adam, not just oxygen, but a part of God himself, a reflection of God Himself, the part of us that feels so good when we act selflessly in love towards others, as God does for us. We listen, or we don't.

We all have that inner voice, a conscience, regardless of our religious belief, and as a Christian, it is much more that that I listen to, to God within me, rather than the doctrine commanded from a man in a pulpit.

I assume that is the same of those who have no religion.

You don't lie because you know how it feels to be lied to. You don't want to be known as a liar, because you don't like liars.

I think it is that simple. That is why when Christ was asked what laws were the most important, said, "to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself." If you aren't loving your neighbor, you aren't loving God."

It's that easy. It is written on all of our hearts.

Some people live selfishly, regardless of the religion they profess with their mouths.

Someone said once that if you took 50 Christians and 50 atheists, and put them in a bag to mix them out, and then sorted them by who acted "good" and who acted selfishly with only their own best interest at heart, you would probably have two groups, each 25 Christians and 25 atheists in each group.

At least the humanist or atheist doesn't claim to be following any religious guidelines.

However, the "goat" Christian has guidelines, claims to be Christian, to follow the Bible, and yet, doesn't, and makes their own justified version of morality. They have far less of an excuse.
 
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Illuminaughty

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I'm a humanist. I would say I get my morality from a combination of things. My upbringing and the acculturation process I went through as a child definitely played into it. Genetic and evolutionary processes play a role I'm sure. The use of rational deliberation was involved - finding out via experience and experimentation which actions tend to cause joy , a sense of well being, and a healthy happy life vs the opposite. Probably some other factors that I've passed over as well.
 
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Beanieboy

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I'm a humanist. I would say I get my morality from a combination of things. My upbringing and the acculturation process I went through as a child definitely played into it. Genetic and evolutionary processes play a role as well I'm sure. Rational deliberation was involved - finding out via experience and experimentation which actions tend to cause joy , a sense of well being, and a healthy happy life vs the opposite. Probably some other factors that I've passed over as well.

Would you also say that when you are asked questions like this, there is an assumption that because you are humanist you act in a selfish way, only caring about yourself or caring about your own self interest alone?

As a Christian, I am always amazed by other Christians that insist that we follow laws of the bible "because that is what God wants." It is all very logical. We shouldn't lie because it breaks trust in the person that you deceive and then makes the victim become less able to trust people in general. You don't commit adultery because it will cause distrust, if not divorce, in your marriage.

There is a reason. I think that saying, "well, I follow it because the bible tells me to" is a childish way of interpreting the bible.

I mean, would you really feel love for a spouse that said, "You know, I would be sleeping with him/her but won't ONLY because we are married and you don't want me to"?

Would that make you feel loved?

So, I can't imagine it would make God feel loved, that you are obeying, not because it is the right thing to do, but because you have to.
 
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Illuminaughty

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Who gets to decide this for society?

I decided for myself just as everyone else does for their self. As long as people aren't causing severe unwanted harm to others (damage to life, limb, property.. those type of things) I respect their right to form their own morality code and live by it. Love and do what you will.

What's makes your morality more moral than mine?

I'm not sure what your morality code consists of so it would be hard to answer.
Where does the conscience come from?

Biochemical processes. Also see above post.

Whose to decide who's conscience is 'correct'?

Me. Just as you do for yourself.

What's to stop the 'elite' deciding that, under 'survival of the fittest', they are more than justified to dominate the rest of us?

If they have the power and will to dominate me ? Nothing really. I would surely try my best to prevent that though.
Why does every society under 'humanism' decay (and yet the Judeo-Christian ethic remains as strong as ever)?

Which societies specifically are you talking about? The US? It was founded partially on enlightenment and humanist ideals like democracy, liberty, and equality. George Washington and many of the other founders were Masons after all.

What do you mean by the Christian ethic remaining as strong as ever?

Isn't the logical conclusion of a 'humanist' society built on the principles of Darwinism, one of domination by a dictatorial elite?

Not really. Humanism is more about liberty , fraternity , equality, democracy, constitutional republic, ...etc... stuff like that.
 
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Illuminaughty

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Would you also say that when you are asked questions like this, there is an assumption that because you are humanist you act in a selfish way, only caring about yourself or caring about your own self interest alone?

I'm not sure. I don't think humanism has anything to do with selfishness in the negative sense of standing on the backs of other people and not caring about them though. In fact selfishness of that variety would be very inhumane and thus the opposite of humanist.
 
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Beanieboy

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I'm not sure. I don't think humanism has anything to do with selfishness in the negative sense of standing on the backs of other people and not caring about them though. In fact selfishness of that variety would be very inhumane and thus the opposite of humanist.

I don't believe it is either, but do you find that people make a false assumption, that you act only thinking of yourself, when you say that you are a humanist, or have that false understanding of humanism itself?
 
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Illuminaughty

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I don't believe it is either, but do you find that people make a false assumption, that you act only thinking of yourself, when you say that you are a humanist, or have that false understanding of humanism itself?

Some people think that way I'm sure. Some of the more conspiratorial minded think humanism = Auschwitz for some reason.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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Some people think that way I'm sure. Some of the more conspiratorial minded think humanism = Auschwitz for some reason.

It depends on your definition of humanism.

Let's just say the combination of humanism (humans being the highest moral authority), Darwinism (survival of the fittest) and atheism (there is no God) = Auschwitz.

It's the logical conclusion of this belief system. You may think Auschwitz is wrong but you have no moral authority to explain why. Hitler and the Nazis believed that Jews were akin to vermin and it was their duty to rid the world of them. They truly believed this with every fibre of their being. The humanist can only appeal to 'conscience' without explaining where it came from and who's conscience is more correct. What about people who don't have a conscience or have a partial conscience (the sociopath)?

I agree with Beanieboy that the conscience comes from God. But unless we have an outside authority (God inspired scripture) as a guide to confirm our conscience, then we end up in endless argument as to who has the 'better' conscience.

The Judeo-Christian scripture are the bedrock of civilised society and as soon as they are ignored, society disintegrates!
 
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Illuminaughty

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Let's just say the combination of humanism (humans being the highest moral authority), Darwinism (survival of the fittest) and atheism (there is no God) = Auschwitz.
I disagree there. The first you could argue as being an aspect of humanism. "Man the measure of all things" type thinking. ok**. Darwinism on the other hand is a scientific theory and it doesn't dictate how you treat other people one way or the other. Atheism had nothing to do with Nazism. By all accounts Hitler was a theist and even claimed to be carrying out the will of God. Atheists generally don't use "God with us" as a slogan and put that on their SS soldiers belt buckles. People claim he is a atheist by ignoring all the public pro Christian statements he made and focusing on a few anti-Christian statements he was said to have supposedly made in private. Thing is even if the statements actually occurred anti-Christian doesn't necessarily imply atheist. Heck , a lot of the same people who call him an atheist will then go on to call him an occultist pagan who worshiped gods like Odin. Which one is it?

** Even so that isn't the only defining aspect of humanism and Nazism violates more requirements for the term than it meets.
 
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Illuminaughty

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The humanist can only appeal to 'conscience' without explaining where it came from and who's conscience is more correct. What about people who don't have a conscience or have a partial conscience (the sociopath)?

I think you'll find more than a few humanist who have an idea of where conscience comes from. I was just trying to explain how mine was formed a few post backs in response to your questions.
 
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IAmCatwoman

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The thing is, Christianity doesn't cure the sociopath.

It's common sense, and a general desire to help people.

Quite frankly, when people ask me where I get my morals from if I'm not Christian, I'm a little frightened, because it seems to indicate to me that if it weren't for that book, the person talking to me would be a murderous, adultering psycho. And if the only thing standing between you and utter chaos is a book, then I probably shouldn't associate with you.
 
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mzungu

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Where do elephants get their desire to help another's baby elephant stuck in the mud? Where do dogs get their desire to help a human in need?

I have yet to meet a religious animal other than humans.

What is morality? It all depends whom you ask; I am sure a Bible thumping American Christian will give a different answer to an European moderate who is a Christian. One will find more in common regarding moral codes between atheists in Europe with Christians in Europe than Christians in America with Christians in Europe.

In Fact fundamentalist Christians in America have more in common with fundamentalist Muslims when it comes to moral codes.

In Europe it is generally accepted that Capital punishment is immoral while in America the overwhelming Christian community of the evangelical and Baptist faiths are pro capital punishment.

In short I think that societies mould moral codes to suit their social norms. Theistic societies and secular societies usually have the same moral codes if those societies are not based on fundamentalism.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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I disagree there. The first you could argue as being an aspect of humanism. "Man the measure of all things" type thinking. ok**. Darwinism on the other hand is a scientific theory and it doesn't dictate how you treat other people one way or the other. Atheism had nothing to do with Nazism. By all accounts Hitler was a theist and even claimed to be carrying out the will of God. Atheists generally don't use "God with us" as a slogan and put that on their SS soldiers belt buckles. People claim he is a atheist by ignoring all the public pro Christian statements he made and focusing on a few anti-Christian statements he was said to have supposedly made in private. Thing is even if the statements actually occurred anti-Christian doesn't necessarily imply atheist. Heck , a lot of the same people who call him an atheist will then go on to call him an occultist pagan who worshiped gods like Odin. Which one is it?

** Even so that isn't the only defining aspect of humanism and Nazism violates more requirements for the term than it meets.

My apologies. It was a bit misleading to associate atheism with Hitler.
My understanding of Hitler is that his worldview was one of an occultist. His associations with the Thule Society and the likes of Deitrich Eckhart (amongst others) and his obsession with the Spear of Destiny all point to this. He was influenced by the likes of Hegel, Schopenhauer, Nietzche and Wagner philosophically but Theosophy is probably the spiritual system he most resonated with and was influenced by. He definitely saw the human-being as being potential 'gods' (via evolution) and this drove his belief in the Aryan race forward. While not strictly being an atheist, he showed no signs of believing in an infinite, moral God who he would one day give account to for his actions. His actions were so diametrically opposed to both Judaism and Christianity, I personally believe the accounts of his rantings in private against Christianity, to be true.

In short, Hitler was his own god, and anyone who opposed his self appointed mandate, was cut down viciously. Like I have said earlier, this is what happens when you do away with the Judeo-Christian ethic. As soon as ethics become relativistic, the slippery slope to tyranny ensues. It's inevitable!
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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The thing is, Christianity doesn't cure the sociopath.

It's common sense, and a general desire to help people.

Quite frankly, when people ask me where I get my morals from if I'm not Christian, I'm a little frightened, because it seems to indicate to me that if it weren't for that book, the person talking to me would be a murderous, adultering psycho. And if the only thing standing between you and utter chaos is a book, then I probably shouldn't associate with you.

You misunderstand. My conscience is alive and well and that fact that it matches the ethics as outlined in the Bible gives both added credence.

Common sense?... common sense these days is calling for post-birth abortion. Common sense is calling for leaving the elderly to die. Common sense is saying that given gay marriage is OK, then three-way marriages should be too.
Some peoples common sense is calling for drastic population reduction. Others common sense calls for complete rule by a global 'elite'.

Who's common sense are we going to agree with?!?!?

Like I've said before, unless we stick with the tried and tested Judeo-Christian ethic, then we are on a slippery slope to complete societal breakdown!
 
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IAmCatwoman

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Humanism is the not the idea that humans are gods. Humanism is the idea that we should not be jerks to each other (in layman's terms).

I think this is one of the major issues with Christianity. It assumes it knows everything about every other religion, and makes sweeping, insulting generalizations about them, only to reveal that they don't have a clue what the religion is about. Hence why I get so many Christians who seem to think I worship Satan, even though the point is I don't believe in god, and so by connection wouldn't believe in Satan either.

Also, you're honestly saying Hitler's tyranny ensued because they did away with Judeo-Christian ethic? That is the most brutal slaughtering of history I've ever heard, has absolutely no respect for the suffering that followed, and is trying to reinvent history to make it victimize Christians. You just said "It's not fair to compare atheists to Hitler" then ended with "ATHEISTS ARE INEVITABLY GOING TO CAUSE THE NEXT NAZI GENOCIDE". You realize this right?

At this rate Judeo Christianity is probably going to start the next genocide - with attitudes like yours, I wouldn't be surprised if the Atheist Concentration Camps don't start popping up. They already practically have the Gay Concentration Camps.
 
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IAmCatwoman

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You misunderstand. My conscience is alive and well and that fact that it matches the ethics as outlined in the Bible gives both added credence.

Common sense?... common sense these days is calling for post-birth abortion. Common sense is calling for leaving the elderly to die. Common sense is saying that given gay marriage is OK, then three-way marriages should be too.
Some peoples common sense is calling for drastic population reduction. Others common sense calls for complete rule by a global 'elite'.

Who's common sense are we going to agree with?!?!?

Like I've said before, unless we stick with the tried and tested Judeo-Christian ethic, then we are on a slippery slope to complete societal breakdown!

Yeah. And without that you're be...for lack of a better, word, a sociopath? Is that what you're saying? That if the Bible didn't exist you'd be a raging murderer? If that is the way you view life, you should probably seek help, because that's incredibly unhealthy.

No, none of those things have anything to do with common sense. Those are social issues, which need to be examined based on how them impact economic, public health, individual health, civil rights, basic human rights, the earth, etc. Common sense are things like treat others the way you want to be treated, don't steal because it can harm someone's job or business, killing people is wrong. It's the basic human desire to be a good person because that is how you create the most rewarding life. There's pretty basic psychology behind this. You know we can identify the part of the brain that lights up when a person does a good deed, essentially giving them a temporary high.

Apparently I'm a better person than you. Because I don't need a magic book and a bribe of heaven (or threat of hell, depending on your point of view) to do good works.

You know what usually heads for social breakdown? When you try and force society into too many rules and regulations and don't give people the credit to figure things out on their own. Like, oh, Nazi Germany. Say, weren't you just making that argument? Yeah y'know, unlike atheism and humanism which are free of strictly written rules and expect and allow humans to make good and humane decisions using their brains, Nazi Germany created many restrictive laws and moral codes. JUST LIKE WHAT YOU SUGGEST.

So in a way, YOUR way is much more like Nazi Germany than ours.
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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Also, you're honestly saying Hitler's tyranny ensued because they did away with Judeo-Christian ethic?

They couldn't have done what they did without doing away with it. Keen on your explanation!

"ATHEISTS ARE ]INEVITABLY GOING TO CAUSE THE NEXT NAZI GENOCIDE". You realize this right?

Atheists have already done this. Think Stalin, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot etc. MASSIVE slaughter.

At this rate Judeo Christianity is probably going to start the next genocide - with attitudes like yours, I wouldn't be surprised if the Atheist Concentration Camps don't start popping up. They already practically have the Gay Concentration Camps.

If you can show me from the sayings of Jesus or the writings of Paul or Peter where genocide is given the green light, I shall drop my religion pronto!
 
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spiritualwarrior77

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You know what usually heads for social breakdown? When you try and force society into too many rules and regulations and don't give people the credit to figure things out on their own. Like, oh, Nazi Germany. Say, weren't you just making that argument? Yeah y'know, unlike atheism and humanism which are free of strictly written rules and expect and allow humans to make good and humane decisions using their brains, Nazi Germany created many restrictive laws and moral codes. JUST LIKE WHAT YOU SUGGEST.

Obviously I need to repeat myself... my conscience is alive and well!!! (no I don't need a book to tell me what is right or wrong).

While most atheists are good people with healthy consciences, many are not. Many atheists take 'survival of the fittest' to it's logical conclusion and decide that seeing as they are more powerful than the rest of us, they will dominate. Frankly, while most atheists find this appalling, they are in no position to argue. Survival of the fittest right!

Dictatorship is the inevitable result of Darwinian atheism!
 
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