Disturbing news from Greece

[mzungu]

 

[mindlight]

They never paid reparations to Greece! You have no evidence and you cannot bring any evidence cause they never paid!!!

This is a myth that Germany spreads around but the time is near for Germany to pay the price... After all they gathered all the Turks in their land ten million of them... And they made them work for them... They are responsible for bringing hordes of immigrants and Muslims into Europe. They also lead the neo-facsist movement in Europe...It is a timebomb... There will be a big clash between the two..But that is what happens when one is money and power hungry...In the end things burst in their sims. The sad part is that they want to do the same to other EU countries...and open up their borders to that mess.... Europe is a dictactorship and Germany and France are the Junta... There is no democracy in EU

The facts are that given the various treaties and agreements between Greece and Germany over the years Germany is not obliged to pay Greece a penny. However the issue is complicated. The facts as I see them are as follows:

And yet payments were made over the years — at different times and from different pots — including as much as $41 billion since 1949, although given the variety of agreements that were reached, it's impossible to say with certainty

Does Germany Owe Greece $95 Billion from World War II? - TIME

-1953 London debt agreement

Bonn scored a decisive success in 1953 with the so-called London Debt Agreement, achieving a gigantic debt cancelation, in the framework of which Greece also waived its former occupier's enormous debts. That agreement permitted the Federal Republic of Germany the expunction of enormous debts, created both before and since World War II. The agreement also stipulated that the question of the payment of Nazi debts and reparations would first be solved with a peace treaty concluded with a "reunited" Germany. [The Federal Republic of] "Germany has been in a very good position ever since, even as other Europeans were forced to endure the burdens of World War II and the consequences of the German occupation," says the economist Ritschl. This has made the resurgence of the "greatest debt transgressor of the 20th Century," namely, Germany, possible.

In 1960 West Germany concluded a treaty with Greece and paid 115m (1960 money) Deutsche marks in compensation.

Arguably the 1953 agreement was invalidated by the reunification of Germany and subsequent 2+4 peace agreement and thus there was a new possibility of claims.

http://www.fontanafilm.ch/DOKFILME/argyris/pdf/Argyris_Appendix_B.pdf

However following the 2000 Areopagus' court decision in Greece the Greek government ruled against claims by victims of Nazi massacres from making reparation claims- Greece then entered the Euro.

Subsequently claims of this sort have been overruled by the international courts

Greece lost the case for compensation from the German occupation | GRReporter.info- News from Greece - Breaking News, Business, Sport, Multimedia and Video.

The recent resurgence of demands from Greece are triggered by the pain of austerity measures and the perception of hypocrisy on the part of Germany for insisting on debt repayments which it itself never made after WW2. Forgive as you have been forgiven being the Greece sentiment. The German sentiment being you cannot pay your own way despite all our help so it is time to leave- or in more diplomatic words:

65 years after the end of the war and after Germany's decades of peaceful, trusting and fruitful cooperation with the international community, including NATO and EU partner Greece, the question of reparations is no longer justified.

 

[mindlight]

First of all Germany never paid us war reparations. Secondly Germany still owes us the FORCED loan she took from us worth about 160 billion € today.

Germany is bullying Europe and she is making a hefty profit. She borrows at 0 - 1% and lends at 4 -6%. The crisis has made her approx 50 billion in interests alone. If you speak German then I will gladly post a video from German state TV where Germany is being exposed for her crisis profiteering tactics.

NEO LIBERALISM has wreaked havoc with the worlds economies. It has all but negated any sovereignty countries have and replaced it with stock market and banking rule!

NEO LIBERALISM has only one GOAL and that is PROFIT AT ANY COST.

SPAIN is almost on the verge of economic collapse and if she goes then Good bye EU! But I suppose Greece is to blame for all the problems in the EU.

What happened to the industrial might of Britain? She has been reduced to nothing more than a service industry country by the Neo Liberalism of Thatcher.

The UK had the best education and the best NHS worldwide. NEO LIBERALISM wants you to pay for everything even the air you breathe if it could.

Wake up people! Be you left or right! Be you communist or capitalist. The war is between the "REGULATORS vs SPECULATORS". Capitalism can and has been proven to live comfortably with socialism (Public health, education etc.) while retaining the right to private commerce. NEO LIBERALISM just caters to the financial institution shareholders interests.

It is high time we got rid of this most inhuman system and go back to what Europe once was.

To hell with these vultures! We have had enough of their corruption and greed, and if it takes armed revolt to rid ourselves of these parasites then so be it! Thy robbed my child's future and we will claim it back no matter the cost!

You clearly did not read what I wrote earlier. NeoLiberalism requires the rule of law. You are describing crony capitalism and then misapplying it to various examples. NeoLiberalism does not work in corrupt failed states.

Germany can borrow at such low rates cause no one expects it to default on its debts. While Greece has already defaulted 6 times since 1826.

What wrecked the UK economy in the 1970s was communists and trade unions preventing market forces from closing down obsolescent industries. Thatcher changed all that and Britain prospered until about 2003 when the Labour Party stopped behaving like the Tory party and started being socialist again. We are now in recovery mode again from socialism.

Spains low levels of debt and serious efforts at reform make it a different situation than in Greece and one more likely to pull through. But the big issue there is how they will be assisted e.g. with or without Eurobonds.

 

[mzungu]

You clearly did not read what I wrote earlier. NeoLiberalism requires the rule of law. You are describing crony capitalism and then misapplying it to various examples. NeoLiberalism does not work in corrupt failed states.

Germany can borrow at such low rates cause no one expects it to default on its debts. While Greece has already defaulted 6 times since 1826.

What wrecked the UK economy in the 1970s was communists and trade unions preventing market forces from closing down obsolescent industries. Thatcher changed all that and Britain prospered until about 2003 when the Labour Party stopped behaving like the Tory party and started being socialist again. We are now in recovery mode again from socialism.

Spains low levels of debt and serious efforts at reform make it a different situation than in Greece and one more likely to pull through. But the big issue there is how they will be assisted e.g. with or without Eurobonds.

On the contrary my dear friend; Neo Liberalism has a field day in corrupt countries. Neo Liberalism demands small and weak governments in order to conduct their business without regulatory hindrance.

You did not watch Katastroika! The problem with your replies is based on the classic "I hate "......" and therefore I will not listen.

NEO LIBERALISM IS CRONY CAPITALISM. After all one only needs to correlate the frequency of global economic crises with the application of Neo Liberalism.

As for German war reparations you are constantly turning a blind eye to the other debt Germany owes Greece; That of the FORCED LOAN. Germany emptied Greece's coffers as a loan that she never repaid.

Two things the all political systems bar neo liberalism have in common are "REGULATIONS" and "National Sovereignty". Neo Liberalism is the enemy of all nations.

But don't be surprised if you have a rude awakening. You may support Goldman Sachs and their like but they don't give two hoots about you nor your country.

In Greece we have a movement where from ultra right wing to far left are joining forces to fight NEO LIBERALISM.

Do you honestly think that a social revolt in Europe will not affect you? Do you think that when Spain defaults it will not affect you?

NEO LIBERALISM caused this and previous economic crises simply because that is how they make their money. Destroy the value of anything then buy it cheap and then sell it for a hefty profit. Well I have news for you:

WE REFUSE TO EAT CAKE!!!!

 

[mzungu]

BBC News - Ancient Greek solution for debt crisis

 

[UnamSanctam]

That is OK! Wait till Neo Liberalism comes knocking on your door! We shall see who cries! The 4th Reich and its allies; Finland, Holland, Austria, and Denmark can form their own union.

Nigel Farage Germany is our new Master! - YouTube

Nigel Farrage is awesome, because he points out the troubling tendencies of the EU.
However, having to pay your bills is NOT a "troubling tendency", but common sense. What is ALSO common sense, is that if you have a retirement age in the low 50s, a culture where budgets are misleading by definition (juggling with tax Euros that aren't there, much like Hitler ordered around divisions that Ivan had crushed long ago), where cheating the system is the national sport, and keep borrowing money to live the easy life, then you're going to get one fiddlestick of a tab eventually.
In short: The bar's closed, time to pay up.

And Germany not wanting to pay Greece's bar bill is fair enough. Now that it has chosen to, it is well within its rights to attach conditions to it.
What, you think that everyone should just pay up so Greece can go on with business as usual?
....how about no?

This problem wasn't caused by "Neo liberalism" or whatever cow manure you can come up with as an excuse. It was caused by Greece joining the Euro before it had the economic strength to do so succesfully, and by living above is means.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Ever notice that when the proverbial excrement hits the fan the European countries all run for their own cover and blame each other?

United Europe.... yeah right.

 

[UnamSanctam]

Ever notice that when the proverbial excrement hits the fan the European countries all run for their own cover and blame each other?

United Europe.... yeah right.

This is quite true.....we're not united, and we can never be united like the US is.
That God for that! Europe and America are two different kettles of fish.
"Europe" is a continent made up of nation-states with our own identities and cultures, some going back 3.000 years or more.
America is entirely artificial, build on immigrants from, mostly, Europe, with "e pluribus unum" as not only a nominal motto, but the actual guiding principle.

This makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Philothei]

Nigel Farrage is awesome, because he points out the troubling tendencies of the EU.
However, having to pay your bills is NOT a "troubling tendency", but common sense. What is ALSO common sense, is that if you have a retirement age in the low 50s, a culture where budgets are misleading by definition (juggling with tax Euros that aren't there, much like Hitler ordered around divisions that Ivan had crushed long ago), where cheating the system is the national sport, and keep borrowing money to live the easy life, then you're going to get one fiddlestick of a tab eventually.
In short: The bar's closed, time to pay up.

And Germany not wanting to pay Greece's bar bill is fair enough. Now that it has chosen to, it is well within its rights to attach conditions to it.
What, you think that everyone should just pay up so Greece can go on with business as usual?
....how about no?

This problem wasn't caused by "Neo liberalism" or whatever cow manure you can come up with as an excuse. It was caused by Greece joining the Euro before it had the economic strength to do so succesfully, and by living above is means.

Brits demanded to get their money from US when they got independent? Nah they wrote off their debt....what makes a debt right off ok and what it does not? Or like Thucydetes said "for you cannot take anything from the one who has nothing"..... I guess when Spain will not be able to pay as well as Italy...the European oligarchy will get the message

 

[Philothei]

This is quite true.....we're not united, and we can never be united like the US is.
That God for that! Europe and America are two different kettles of fish.
"Europe" is a continent made up of nation-states with our own identities and cultures, some going back 3.000 years or more.
America is entirely artificial, build on immigrants from, mostly, Europe, with "e pluribus unum" as not only a nominal motto, but the actual guiding principle.

This makes all the difference in the world.

American is united Europe is not...Have you seen how if one state is in trouble the rest pitch in?? Europe will try to take advantage from its states... while USA does not... The rich states help and aid the poor...You cannot compare US and Europe in this regard there is antagonism and right now Germany together with the Frankish Empire rein...

 

[UnamSanctam]

Brits demanded to get their money from US when they got independent? Nah they wrote off their debt....what makes a debt right off ok and what it does not? Or like Thucydetes said "for you cannot take anything from the one who has nothing"..... I guess when Spain will not be able to pay as well as Italy...the European oligarchy will get the message

Britain lost the war of independence. When you lose a war, you normally don't GET money. Are you suggesting that Greece declare war on Germany? And that it could WIN?

What would it pay its soldiers with? Feta cheese and ouzo? And run its tanks on goat milk?

No, you cannot take anything from someone who doesn't have anything. But you can wait until he DOES have something, and then he can pay you back. And you can refuse to borrow him any more money, OR demand that he meets certain obligations before lending him the money.
Greece has been living the high live, waaay above its means, and it's not just for everyone else, Germany in particular, to have to pay for Greek carelessness.

 

[Philothei]

It is going to be a long way...BTW we never got the May loan installment... I think that is why our cancer patients are dying ....just saying... If one wants to see a nation in their knees that is the time to do it...Good going brother Europeans

 

[UnamSanctam]

It is going to be a long way...BTW we never got the May loan installment... I think that is why our cancer patients are dying ....just saying... If one wants to see a nation in their knees that is the time to do it...Good going brother Europeans

Yes, Greece has put itself in a very, very uncomfortable position to say the least.
But it's not the rest of Europe's fault that your health care system is so bad now, that those kinds of things happen. It's tragic. But it's your OWN fault. And you cannot expect Europe to pick up the tab for your economic irresponsibility.
Isn't the lack of payment of the May loan installment due to insecurity as to whether or not Greece would meet the criteria for the loan, due to the political problems?
Yeah, good going Greece. You brought yourself in a lot of trouble, and expect the rest of Europe to pay for your party.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What would it pay its soldiers with? Feta cheese and ouzo? And run its tanks on goat milk?

It could run its tanks on ouzo, I'm sure.

 

[TerranceL]

This is quite true.....we're not united, and we can never be united like the US is.
That God for that! Europe and America are two different kettles of fish.
"Europe" is a continent made up of nation-states with our own identities and cultures, some going back 3.000 years or more.
America is entirely artificial, build on immigrants from, mostly, Europe, with "e pluribus unum" as not only a nominal motto, but the actual guiding principle.

This makes all the difference in the world.

Do you think that with people going from one country to another in europe for work/vacation/economy issue that the continent will become more ... well... united?

I mean if you look at american history we weren't always united, even before the civil war we had conflicts between states that often became violent.

 

[UnamSanctam]

It could run its tanks on ouzo, I'm sure.

Never tasted it....tried the Turkish raki, though....not pleasant either! :S

Do you think that with people going from one country to another in europe for work/vacation/economy issue that the continent will become more ... well... united?

I mean if you look at american history we weren't always united, even before the civil war we had conflicts between states that often became violent.

I'm sceptical.
The first thing that "united" the Americans were the common enemy: The British crown. But after that, there was much that seperated the more industrialized/mercantile North from the more rural/agricultural South. And, as far as I've understood your history, also from what you've said just now, that was pretty much how it went until mass immigration from Europe started in the 19th century.
America changed irreversably from more or less displaying two sides of English/British society to being a conglomerate of different cultures. You'd have not only Irishmen, but Italians, Germans, French (especially after the Louisiana purchase), Danes, etc, living together in one country. Over the course of the decades, this necessitated a more "cosmopolitan" attitude, focusing on people as "Americans", developing a sort of national identity, and, of course, the national mythos (note that I'm not using "myth" in its derogatory form here) about America as the country where you can work your way up from shoe polisher to CEO. The land of opportunities. So the American national identity is based not primarily on ethnicity or language like the Europeans' are, but on the idea of America as "a light unto the nations", a country of equality and opportunity.

That's the fundamental difference between America and Europe. We might travel more, and get to know and understand eachother more than before, but we are ancient states with ancient cultures and ancient peoples. And those that aren't, aren't very stable either (Sorry, Belgium, but I'm right).

 

[Philothei]

Britain lost the war of independence. When you lose a war, you normally don't GET money. Are you suggesting that Greece declare war on Germany? And that it could WIN?

What would it pay its soldiers with? Feta cheese and ouzo? And run its tanks on goat milk?

No, you cannot take anything from someone who doesn't have anything. But you can wait until he DOES have something, and then he can pay you back. And you can refuse to borrow him any more money, OR demand that he meets certain obligations before lending him the money.
Greece has been living the high live, waaay above its means, and it's not just for everyone else, Germany in particular, to have to pay for Greek carelessness.

The Greek soldiers are NOT paid army like SOME countries *cough* we have soldiers who fight for their honor and their family honor... Let's not be funny about the bravety of the Greek army... Churchill said that "the heroes fight like the Greeks not the heroes like the Greeks" Not my words...Some old Brits appreciated Hellenes more than any modern time would eve do...

Greece have been living the "high life" ?? How? With salaries half than your average salary in your country? Get real please!

 

[Philothei]

Yes, Greece has put itself in a very, very uncomfortable position to say the least.
But it's not the rest of Europe's fault that your health care system is so bad now, that those kinds of things happen. It's tragic. But it's your OWN fault. And you cannot expect Europe to pick up the tab for your economic irresponsibility.
Isn't the lack of payment of the May loan installment due to insecurity as to whether or not Greece would meet the criteria for the loan, due to the political problems?
Yeah, good going Greece. You brought yourself in a lot of trouble, and expect the rest of Europe to pay for your party.

We expect those who were responsible for the crisis meaning the whole of Europe to fix its act! If it was ONLY a Greece problem how come Italy and Spain are busting?? I am sure you will come up with some excuses for the matter of fact is that the northern states always wanted to subject the southern. I do not see how they all had bad govent's I think it will come a time when all will blow over and we will find the truth. Although the siemen's scandal is the tip of the iceberg lying underneath... So spare me the accusations... The responsibility is divided as you as "parteners" are supposed to help instead of pointing fingers...

 

[Philothei]

Countries like England, France and Germany and all European countries will never put down their nationality for the common good Simply put imperialism is alive and well in Europe thus the economic crisis...England was able to keep its own currency...Greece was not given that choice...Does this tell ya somethin'??

 

[KarateCowboy]

I was listening to some of his speech on the radio.

The guy even sounds like a Nazi.

Is Europe swinging back toward Nationalism?

Well, they already have the Socialism. That's half the equation.

Pretty stupid for the author to call them right wing extremists. Sorry, no such thing as a libertarian authoritarian