Egalitarian Marriage

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JaneFW

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When push comes to shove, my husband and I . . . sit down and talk things out. And we keep sitting and talking until we've found agreement or a compromise. Sometimes we agree to delegate the decision to the person with more knowledge. Sometimes the one who cares less deeply yields to the one who is passionate on the subject. Sometimes we agree to disagree. Ideally, we seek the guidance of the Spirit.
I have made this exact same observation and response SO many times.
 
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Tamara224

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Yep.

I've never really understood the whole "we need a final decision maker in case of impasse" argument. I mean, shouldn't we be trying to avoid the impasse point altogether?

I think it would do some people a lot of good if they were to live with a roommate of the same sex for a while. Learn how to work out compromises and mutually agreeable plans with someone that you don't think is either above or below you in the hierarchy. Then come back to the marriage and realize it can be exactly the same way with someone of the opposite sex.


I especially liked point number 4 on that article. If I had a nickel for every time someone has accused me, as an egalitarian, of twisting Scripture, going against God, being in danger of hellfire, because I have the temerity to believe Scripture teaches against hierarchy and for equal partnership in marriage, I could probably retire now.
 
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David Jerome

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I think it would do some people a lot of good if they were to live with a roommate of the same sex for a while. Learn how to work out compromises and mutually agreeable plans with someone that you don't think is either above or below you in the hierarchy. Then come back to the marriage and realize it can be exactly the same way with someone of the opposite sex.
I disagree. Living with someone of the same sex, is completely different from living with someone of the opposite sex.

This is why most people on this forum wouldn't recommend doing so, unless the two sexes are family members.
 
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Tamara224

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I disagree. Living with someone of the same sex, is completely different from living with someone of the opposite sex.

Only if you make it completely different by introducing hierarchy into it.

I lived with my sister for many years. I lived with my brother for 5 years.

It was pretty much the same. Except my sister is a better cook.

This is why most people on this forum wouldn't recommend doing so, unless the two sexes are family members.

Why would two people of the same sex need to be family members to live together?
 
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dallasapple

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I thought that was a great post she made including the points she made of the differences in gender..

There is a another common misconception and i dont even get HOW its twisted into that is egalitarian means the woman must be ordering the man around..The whole concept of EQUAL and mutual is completely lost on them..its the man bosses her around or else then she mUST be bossing him around..someone HAS to be bossing someone around right?

And also her point that on average that research shows those in an egalitarian marriage on AVERAGE are 'happier" would be lost or a moot point for many becasue they also believe that marriage isnt supposed to be about happiness..God never said we should be happy...you suffer through marriage and your reward for being miserable all your life is after your dead in heaven..

Doesnt matter if the couple is LOVING and mutually respecftul just how Jesus would want us to treat each other ...they are still wrong..


Dallas
 
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Tamara224

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I didn't say "two people of the same sex".

Huh?

I'm saying that people should live with some of their SAME sex so that they can learn how to cooperate and compromise without hierarchy and then apply that learning to their opposite-sex relationship.

The fact that people presuppose that opposite-sex roommates would have sexual tension or whatever and so they shouldn't live with someone of the opposite sex whom they're not related or married to is a completely different ball of wax.

The point is.... same-sex relationships are different because we approach them differently from the start.

I think it would do people a world of good to attempt to apply the same types of skills to opposite-sex relationships as they do in their same-sex relationships. (Don't freak out, I am not referring to homosexuality here. :p)

If we weren't presuming that men are from Mars and women are from Venus, we wouldn't feel the need to impose arbitrary rules and rulership on them. We can clearly see how people of the same sex can compromise and respect one another without anyone being "the head."

If it can be done between a man and a man or a woman and a woman, there's no logical reason why the same attitude of compromise and cooperation can't be done between a man and a woman.
 
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dallasapple

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I liked one of the comments that pointed out that if a group of 30 people or 300 people can come to an agreement on a difficult proposal, what's so weird about the idea of 2 people being able to come to an agreement.

Exactly..

I have been in groups before or even with just one other person that we came to an agreement many times when we origianlly had not agreed we did not appoint a "head".. ..compromise is one of those ways..There is also nothign wrong with agreeing to disagree..and one or the other defers to the one that is more passionate on the matter or one actually has more ability in the area..Like she mentions..I would imagine that over the years it would even out..even if it DIDNT it wouldnt be because ONE was favored to always get there way in an disgreemant..

Dallas
 
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WolfGate

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I've never really understood the whole "we need a final decision maker in case of impasse" argument. I mean, shouldn't we be trying to avoid the impasse point altogether?

Absolutely! However, there may be times where that is not reality. Hopefully very rarely, but as people that is a possibility.

Let me address how I believe the marriage model is presented in scripture. As many of you know, if I have to put myself in a bucket it would be complimentarian and I have concerns with how I understand both the egaliatrian and patriarchial viewpoints (though I am always open to greater understanding).

Quoting scripture for informational purposes only, not to debate how it should be interpreted, but rather to present how I (as one complimentarian sees it) specifically to the point Tamara brought up.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

I think that indicates that if the husband and wife, after much prayer and discussion, cannot agree on an issue, the wife does defer to the husband's judgement. Someone has to make the call if an impasse is reached, particularly if a "no decision" is effectively a decision. The wife is called to defer to his decision and leadership in those cases. And I think Tamara's use of the word "trying" is telling in that it indicates it may not be possible in all cases to avoid the impasse despite best efforts.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

Without the next verses, the objection of some "why should the husband always get what he wants" or the false doctrine of the man believing he is the family dominator would be understandable. However, the verses to the husband also make it clear that he is to give himself up for her, to love her as Christ loved the church. As I understand it, that means that he should be seeking a way for his wife's needs and desires to be met, ahead of his own. In that way, he is deferring his wants to meet her desires and needs where possible.

I'll give you an example that happened to Roberston McQuilken, former head of Columbia International University and a missionary to Japan. If you want to read the story of a man loving his wife as Christ loved the church, read "A Promise Kept". He gave up everything career and prestige wise to care for her when she developed early onset Alzheimers. He taught men at our church several times after his retirement.

In any case, he told us one time that while his belief was the bible prescribed to him final family decision authority, that during all his years of marriage to Muriel there were only a handful of times where they did not come to agreement on a course of action after prayer and discussion. One of those was when he felt they were called to leave the mission field and go to academia and Murial felt strongly they were to stay in Japan. They simply did not feel God was calling them to the same place. They had a deadline, and not actively accepting the academic roles by the deadline was the same as turning them down. Who then makes the call? Biblically, he does as I understand the scriptures.

Robertson also cautioned that in his marriage he could count on one hand the number of times those type issues had happened. Why? Because both were seeking to serve the other first. He cautioned us that if as men we found ourselves wanting to "pull rank" with any regularity, we needed to first examine ourselves and make sure we were fulfilling our role. Not that women aren't capable of ignoring their responsibilities, they are - but the danger for us as men with the role we've been given is that we give in to our temptations and desires first. Women have the same problem which manifests itself the same way - giving into their desires rather than accepting God's word. In those cases then these types of conflicts would also arise more often and have the be handled.

All that to say I really do appreciate Tamara's point. And I've been fortunate to be in a marriage where we both seek to serve the other, so perhaps I through experience relate to Robertson's perspective. But I also think it optimistic to believe any marriage will always avoid those points were a decision has to be made and the two are at an impasse. And I believe the bible, as stated above, tells us how to handle that.

And I hope in stating the above I have stayed within the guidelines set forth by our moderators, because I'm really trying to do so... I'm not looking to start the old debates and downward spirals of the past - rather to present a different viewpoint for better understanding. Same as I interpreted the original posts intent.
 
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Tamara224

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Absolutely! However, there may be times where that is not reality. Hopefully very rarely, but as people that is a possibility.

Except that every egalitarian couple I've ever spoken to and every comment on a blog or a forum from egalitarians all pretty much agree: the impasse situation doesn't happen. Some of those commenters over there were saying they've been married upward of 30 years and have NEVER had that occur.

So, a situation that is, even according to you, "very rare" seems like a very flimsy reason to order an entire relationship hierarchically. If it's not likely to happen often, and our goal is for it to happen never, then why on earth would we plan for it as if it's likely to happen?

What I find interesting is that in all of these discussions online that I've seen, only the complementarians have examples of this impasse situation in their own lives. Egalitarians mostly report that they've never had that happen.

IMHO, the impasse situation is a built-in flaw of the complementarian position. By setting up hierarchy in a love-relationship, it creates the situation where an impasse and disagreement becomes possible. Where a relationship is built on love and mutual respect/submission, the impasse in need of a final vote is impossible.


Tell me, why would a man be motivated to compromise if he knew that at the end of the day whatever he says goes, anyway?

The hierarchy - where the man gets the final say - creates incentive for selfish men to be stubborn and insist on their own way. They don't have to care about their wife's opinion, expertise, experience, wisdom or intelligence. If he wants his way badly enough, all he has to do is refuse to compromise.

Let me address how I believe the marriage model is presented in scripture. As many of you know, if I have to put myself in a bucket it would be complimentarian and I have concerns with how I understand both the egaliatrian and patriarchial viewpoints (though I am always open to greater understanding).

Thanks for sharing. I'm going to refrain from responding to you, though, because I don't want this thread to get closed for debating things we're not supposed to.

And I hope in stating the above I have stayed within the guidelines set forth by our moderators, because I'm really trying to do so... I'm not looking to start the old debates and downward spirals of the past - rather to present a different viewpoint for better understanding. Same as I interpreted the original posts intent.


:thumbsup:
 
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David Jerome

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Huh?

I'm saying that people should live with some of their SAME sex so that they can learn how to cooperate and compromise without hierarchy and then apply that learning to their opposite-sex relationship.
And like I already said, this probably wont work, because opposite-sex relationships are completely different from same-sex ones. Different mentalities, needs, cultural expections, physical needs, etc.
 
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JaneFW

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I think that indicates that if the husband and wife, after much prayer and discussion, cannot agree on an issue, the wife does defer to the husband's judgement. Someone has to make the call if an impasse is reached, particularly if a "no decision" is effectively a decision. The wife is called to defer to his decision and leadership in those cases. And I think Tamara's use of the word "trying" is telling in that it indicates it may not be possible in all cases to avoid the impasse despite best efforts.
I disagree. As the blogger - and others who posted - commented, the person who has the greatest experience and knowledge in that area gets the final say. I will use this example again - when it comes to cars or car purchasing, although I was very involved with buying our new car last year, I let my husband guide me on the range of models that I would even be choosing from, bearing in mind the budget I had set. When I chose that car, he negotiated with the dealer (got us a nice discount!) and I took an absolute back seat to that process. I'm not interested in spending the time getting to learn about cars, nor do I like to haggle - those are areas he excels in, so that would be his domain. When it come to our big move in the next 2 years, he pretty much choose where we would move to, only according to my requirements for work. As you may recall, we had a difference of opinion on where I should work, but I consider myself to be the expert on which is the best organization, because I had done the research on that, and he had not. And also, I am the one that will be doing the job! Therefore, my call.

Other than the obvious areas of dissent between us - which I don't want to go into yet again - we have never had a situation which was at such an impasse that we could not agree, and we had to say "okay honey, as you have male genitalia, you can decide what color the kitchen should be painted." I mean, it just sounds so ridiculous.
 
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Tamara224

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And like I already said, this probably wont work, because opposite-sex relationships are completely different from same-sex ones. Different mentalities, needs, cultural expections, physical needs, etc.

Any two humans have different mentalities, needs, cultural expectations, physical needs.

You're not really suggesting that all women have one mentality and all men have another, are you?

All your argument really supports is the idea that we should each live alone.



You're still missing my point about learning how to compromise in the absence of hierarchy.
 
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JaneFW

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And like I already said, this probably wont work, because opposite-sex relationships are completely different from same-sex ones. Different mentalities, needs, cultural expections, physical needs, etc.
What do these things have to do with coming to agreement on daily issues?

Also, do men and women have different cultural expectations? Because I am totally thrown by that.
 
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JaneFW

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IMHO, the impasse situation is a built-in flaw of the complementarian position. By setting up hierarchy in a love-relationship, it creates the situation where an impasse and disagreement becomes possible. Where a relationship is built on love and mutual respect/submission, the impasse in need of a final vote is impossible.

Tell me, why would a man be motivated to compromise if he knew that at the end of the day whatever he says goes, anyway?

The hierarchy - where the man gets the final say - creates incentive for selfish men to be stubborn and insist on their own way. They don't have to care about their wife's opinion, expertise, experience, wisdom or intelligence. If he wants his way badly enough, all he has to do is refuse to compromise.
oh yes.
 
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David Jerome

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Any two humans have different mentalities, needs, cultural expectations, physical needs.

You're not really suggesting that all women have one mentality and all men have another, are you?
Both sexes still have certain generalities, as shown in the OP with the differences between them.

All your argument really supports is the idea that we should each live alone.
What part of my argument supports that?

You're still missing my point about learning how to compromise in the absence of hierarchy.
I understand your point, I just disagreed with your suggested way of going about it.
 
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chaz345

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By setting up hierarchy in a love-relationship, it creates the situation where an impasse and disagreement becomes possible. Where a relationship is built on love and mutual respect/submission, the impasse in need of a final vote is impossible.
S there's no heiarchy in our love relationship with Christ?


Tell me, why would a man be motivated to compromise if he knew that at the end of the day whatever he says goes, anyway?
His desire to follow Christ's directive to love his wife as Christ loved the church perhaps?
 
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David Jerome

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What do these things have to do with coming to agreement on daily issues?
They don't. It's the method on how to do so, in light of "hierarchy", that I disagreed with.

Also, do men and women have different cultural expectations? Because I am totally thrown by that.
Is this the first time you've heard that men and women hae different cultural expectations to live up to?
 
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