Gifts of the Spirit

[Avodat]

Oh I thank you. My problem isn't with prayer anyway, a person asking for themself or someone else asking. My lack of understanding the need for a secondary is in the physical realm of the receiving end, if that makes any sense. I don't have a problem seeing where it might work, but in the actual need for it.
Going to the beggar and Peter in Acts as an example. I can see where that took place. The beggar wasn't even asking for healing, but for money for survival. Peter spoke a word and the man received healing to earn his own livelyhood. It's the need to seek out someone to lay hands on - why should that be needed. Why not just the private request and the private poof? I just don't get it. And too many times, I've witnessed it to not work. And the few times I've witnessed it, whether it was for myself or another, it's not been anything major, not life changing - just minor. And the big things go on just as normal, no changes.
Like I said, you can only hold on to false hope for so long then you gotta face reality. My biggest problem right now is I can't dig in nor can I let go, so I'm just hanging by a thread - one that has me thoroughly wrapped but keeps stretching as if to break and release but never does....this is truly a terrible place to be.

Thanks for the unintended ROFLOL you gave me there! Your last word in England English means a homosexual - I wondered if that is how that condition came about

Seriously - I can see your point but so few people believe G_d is even there, let alone working at healing, esp. un-believers, sometimes it is good to ask in a service and see G_d respond in amazing ways, although I have dealt with a number of people privately, too.

 

[visionary]

I privately ask God, what about this situation, or that? If God wants me to do something at this time, praying, laying on hands, declaring in His name...etc... then He has to put it into my heart to do it in His name. I would not want to run ahead of Him and put Him in a position that is not His Will. I want to know His Will first. I then want to know if I have any role in this matter. He know the earnestness of my prayer and my heart for the healing. He has His reasons for why He does or does not step in every situation. I wait upon Him. There is no doubt that He can do all things. There is a time and place for everything. I have seen the miracles, whether it is now or later or not at all, depends on a lot of factors. As Yeshua once said, "He was born for this moment to the glory of God" as He healed the born blind man.

 

[Avodat]

I privately ask God, what about this situation, or that? If God wants me to do something at this time, praying, laying on hands, declaring in His name...etc... then He has to put it into my heart to do it in His name. I would not want to run ahead of Him and put Him in a position that is not His Will. I want to know His Will first. I then want to know if I have any role in this matter. He know the earnestness of my prayer and my heart for the healing. He has His reasons for why He does or does not step in every situation. I wait upon Him. There is no doubt that He can do all things. There is a time and place for everything. I have seen the miracles, whether it is now or later or not at all, depends on a lot of factors. As Yeshua once said, "He was born for this moment to the glory of God" as He healed the born blind man.

 

[JRSut1000]

God is not very keen on healing? He LOVES to heal His children! But like I said in a previous post, there is much unbelief that God wants to heal His children and it's evident in most groups.

And I wont go into the tongues issue, I do believe that charistmatics take that one and run with it to the extreme. I believe God can use the gift of languages/interpretation, but it has to be done 'decently and in order', not everyone babbling all at once. The gift is meant to edify the body.

And yes, if God wants to have His way in a service, why not? Y'shua healed on the Sabbath IN the synagogue! Also when He was teaching from Torah, He began to talk about how those scriptures talked about him. I'm sure they weren't expecting that. King David danced before the LORD in a tunic (whatever that means, but Im sure it wasnt the usual since his wife Michal scoffed at him and was cursed for it). And when the people were assembled for Shavuot in Acts, I bet they werent expecting God to outpour His Spirit and hear the Besorah of Messiah that day.

 

[Avodat]

God is not very keen on healing? He LOVES to heal His children! But like I said in a previous post, there is much unbelief that God wants to heal His children and it's evident in most groups.

And I wont go into the tongues issue, I do believe that charistmatics take that one and run with it to the extreme. I believe God can use the gift of languages/interpretation, but it has to be done 'decently and in order', not everyone babbling all at once. The gift is meant to edify the body.

And yes, if God wants to have His way in a service, why not? Y'shua healed on the Sabbath IN the synagogue! Also when He was teaching from Torah, He began to talk about how those scriptures talked about him. I'm sure they weren't expecting that. King David danced before the LORD in a tunic (whatever that means, but Im sure it wasnt the usual since his wife Michal scoffed at him and was cursed for it). And when the people were assembled for Shavuot in Acts, I bet they werent expecting God to outpour His Spirit and hear the Besorah of Messiah that day.

Not to mention the fact that 1 Corinthians Chapters 10-14 are all about right order and giftings in the Church / Congregation

 

[yedida]

God is not very keen on healing? He LOVES to heal His children! But like I said in a previous post, there is much unbelief that God wants to heal His children and it's evident in most groups.

And I wont go into the tongues issue, I do believe that charistmatics take that one and run with it to the extreme. I believe God can use the gift of languages/interpretation, but it has to be done 'decently and in order', not everyone babbling all at once. The gift is meant to edify the body.

And yes, if God wants to have His way in a service, why not? Y'shua healed on the Sabbath IN the synagogue! Also when He was teaching from Torah, He began to talk about how those scriptures talked about him. I'm sure they weren't expecting that. King David danced before the LORD in a tunic (whatever that means, but Im sure it wasnt the usual since his wife Michal scoffed at him and was cursed for it). And when the people were assembled for Shavuot in Acts, I bet they werent expecting God to outpour His Spirit and hear the Besorah of Messiah that day.

You didn't seem to take note of the fact that I said when people let the Spirit lead it usually means license for them to let loose - this is not letting the Spirit lead at all, this is just emotion gone beserk. You know when you are in a place that the Spirit has the floor, so to speak. But those times nowadays are truly rare. (And I have no problem with orderly dancing when dancing is appropriate. I love it though I can usually not even last thru one song due to health and pain issues.)
And I have no problem with true tongues (as we see in Acts) where it's the language of someone else. I've actually experienced that twice in my lifetime, speaking to someone in their native tongue (and didn't even know I was doing it, I heard myself speaking English, they heard their own language). It's the uncontrolled gibberish and the Elisabethan "interpretations" that I find so very false. And the craziness of those "slain in the spirit," just don't believe all that is of God. It's all emotion, not even so much a demonic spirit, just the people themselves doing this out of uncontrolled emotion.

 

[JRSut1000]

I understand that when we see things not operating properly, it's tempting to say "I dont want that at all" but then the problem occurs when fear causes us to say no to what GOd may actually want to do, because we've only witnessed that which man has perverted.

It's kind of like sex (if I may). God created it to be great, but in today's society it's usually perverted into something evil and not what God intended. So a lot of people have a hard time accepting that sex truly is good and made by God. So some choose to shun it or have shame about it and think it an evil necessary pleasure.

So basically what I'm saying is, dont let the negative cause you to shy away from the genuine gifts and signs God may desire to bestow in a service. I believe God does have grace for His people, even imperfect peoples and congregations. That's the thing about gifts, they are GIFTS. It's not something we merit by trying to understand everything perfectly first, it's a gift from God because He's good and wants to edify and restore His people to greater fullness of Himself.

 

[JRSut1000]

Have you read the passage in 1 Chronicles 28 where the details of the Temple services were given to David by the Spirit?

Deuteronomy 17 God gave authority on legal rulings to the priests and elders and told Israel not to waver from them to the right or the left. This is the same injunction He gave for the Torah. Establishing liturgy is within their domain.

There is nothing in 1 Chronicles 28-29, nor remotely close, to a liturgy being established. This chapter deals with the weights and measures for the temple, which were commanded in Torah. Everyone else knows that the "liturgy" was developed by Jews in the Babylonian captivity, which is why they call it "the Babylonian Talmud". Y'shua wanted the commandments kept, not the traditions! But I really do not wish to enter into the liturgy debate at this time, but to keep on target with discussion concerning the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[visionary]

Thanks for the unintended ROFLOL you gave me there! Your last word in England English means a homosexual - I wondered if that is how that condition came about

Seriously - I can see your point but so few people believe G_d is even there, let alone working at healing, esp. un-believers, sometimes it is good to ask in a service and see G_d respond in amazing ways, although I have dealt with a number of people privately, too.

poof??

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I believe God does have grace for His people, even imperfect peoples and congregations. That's the thing about gifts, they are GIFTS. It's not something we merit by trying to understand everything perfectly first, it's a gift from God because He's good and wants to edify and restore His people to greater fullness of Himself.

What you said reminded me of I Thessalonians 5:19-22 when Paul said the following:

19 Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.

​

In the times we live in, when there's so much mess that has happened in the name of the Spiritual gifts, many tend to not wish to test all things...opting instead for a "One Size Fits All" methodology. To me, it is odd whenever that occurs since there was no chapter and verse in I Corinthians 12 when Paul originally wrote the letter...thus making it the case that one cannot highlight the gifts that people often question (i.e. miracles, healings, etc) and try to seperate those from all of the other things the Holy Spirit made possible (i.e. gifts of helps, leadership, administration, etc). No one would ever say that there's no longer such things occurring as gifts of encouragements and helps due to the fact that there were times those giftings were abused....yet the same logic isn't applied to the gifts of healings or miracles and prophecy. I think we can end up hindering the Spirit from doing ministry when we, as you noted often, allow fear to lead us more so than wisdom.

 

[JRSut1000]

Amen Easy G, thank you for elaborating

 

[Avodat]

poof??

That's the word! Obviously has totally different connotations to those to whom we gave our language.

We would probably say 'in an instant' or 'in a puff of smoke' or 'the blink of an eye' - never in a 'poof'

 

[JRSut1000]

Haha, l o l. I think thats gonna be my new phrase - 'In a poof!' Gonna try that on my husband later on.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm talking about gifts, good things from the hand of the LORD. We all know the devil comes to steal kill and destroy. But when there is a genuine healing or a dream that confirms a word or revelation or prophecy, or deliverance that sets people free, or a word of knowledge that confirms direction to a person or people, I want to attribute those to a good God. I think some people give the devil TOO much credit rather than focusing on our good God.

I think there is something to be said about how culture does make a difference. It often seems most of the discussions about giving credit to the enemy for spiritual occurrences do not happen around the world on the mission field as frequently. There was an interesting documentary on that when it came to the work occurring in China amongst those suffering as Christians in the persecuted churches there....and for more, one can look it up under the name The Finger of God - Pt 1

Underground Church in China excerpt from Finger ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgm4O3uCdZ0

Here in the U.S, where the battlefield is more so that of the mind and intellectual dynamics in view while we often have alot of resources that can make many supernatural healings seem unecessary, I would not be surprised as to why alot of things can happen in the U.S that seem fake. As another once said, "The enemy abroad appears as a roaring Dragon...with much power needed....but here, in prosperous lands, he appears as a slithering serpent..with much wisdom needed."

There is something to be said, I think, about atmosphere making a world of difference. Anyone that says signs/wonders and miracles happening outside the U.S. are false is simply not doing work on the mission field---but what I've often heard from those who experience the mission field is that the people over there live in much harsher circumstances than in the U.S. They often live out their faith on the margins...in a culture that's VERY much into spiritualism, the occult and often more believing in the supernatural than here in the U.S which is very rationalistic/focused on entertainment. Thus, others have felt that the Lord does more supernatural things on that side of the world than here in the U.S since they have a far greater need for it, especially when the Gospel is so much more real....whereas here (as said before), the focus in the U.S is more so on the intellectual side/mental battles and thus the Power of the Lord is more so demonstrated in differing ways.


This is essentially seen in one paticular branch of Cessationism that many hold to and that I've often leaned toward myself...known as Cocentric Cessationism. For more info, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:

• Spiritual gifts | CharisMissional
• Healing| The Gospel According to Erik
• Gifts of the Holy Spirit | CharisMissional
• A Missional View of Healing and Deliverance
• Are the Sign Gifts Necessary? - Jesse Phillips
• The Healing Ministry of Jesus - Shepherd Serve</DIV>
• The Godblogosphere's Black Hole | Cerulean Sanctum
• Subsequence: a biblical-theological defense of Pentecostal ...
  
• Confessions of A Reformed Charismatic » Imperishable Inheritance
• Throwing Stones in Glass Houses of Worship: Cerulean Sanctum ()
• "Miraculous Manifestations of the Holy Spirit: Their Pur*pose and Relevance Today " ( )

It was often one of the greatest issues I saw debated in Highschool, especially when interacting with others in an environment where some are Charismatic/Continuists and believing as you do and yet also having others who may range anywhere from Soft Cessationists to Hard Cessationist and believe others thinking otherwise are naive/foolish---or for many of the outlandish claims often made in the Charismatic Movement when it comes to "moves of god" and many other issues..

But on the issue, in regards to Cessationism, the branch knwon as "Concentric Cessationism " is a view dealing with the issue that seems to be in line with many wondering why there're healings/wonders moreso around the world than here in the states at times--as they believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel, basically seeing more so occuring within the the "cutting edge" places of the Gospel being spread.

Of course, doesn't mean others feel that healings/miraculous gifts do not happen here in the states. For there're many who feel that the Gifts of the Spirit--as well as the things Jesus noted on healing the sick/raising the dead and many other issues---are more than continuing. They have no problem believing many accounts on the issue of miracles/wonders occuring here and around the world.....and they often do not have issue giving benefit of the doubt and celebration of the works of Christ in others, especially for those who've either been on the Mission Field or have family there already who see the Power of God up close

They also have no issue believing that many miraculous events occur due to FAITH in action, just as it was with the Lord Jesus and the Church in Acts. However, they also believe that signs/wonders are not something to be treated as if it were like Disney or Popcorn----especially seeing that in the ministry of Jesus, healings/miracles had a purpose and they were not an EVERY-DAY thing...or something to which He made a must to happen all the time during his years of ministry, as the goal is to minister to the Father rather than public demand...and that often changed.

People often forget that the amount of time it takes us to read the accounts of what occured in the Gospels and Acts can be damaging to understanding healings---for we can read in about a 10 to 20 minute time span and assume that when things go from chapter to chapter it was an EVERY-DAY occurance...and yet forget that the Gospels were accounts of what occured over a time of 3 years, so there's the possibility that the many instances of others being healed rapidly many times were not occuring within a daily context.

THe same with Acts---which was a narrative written over 30 years....and to take the examples of faith/healing as if it was like popcorn can be damaging since I think it's reasonable to say that many of the instances of miraculous healings didn't occur all the time in Paul's time and perhaps not for long periods of time, months or years. But when it happened, it didn't mean that the Lord didn't consider faith to be of importance and that His desire to heal wasn't real......

More could be said---but if interested, one paticular resource one can look up online (if wanting study info) would be a book that I highly recommend by Wayne Grudem known as "Are Miraculous Gifts For Today?" ( )

The author invited leading representatives from four distinct theological perspectives to present their views on the operation of miraculous gifts today. Grudem has long been one within the camp of Reformed Charismatic theology that I've often enjoyed regarding the scholarly approaches/presentation of multuple points of view that he does....as in the book, he identified the four schools as Cessationists, Open Minded but Cautious, Third Wave, and Pentecostal/Charismatic.

Obvious is the fact that not every form of Cessationism is necessarily a detrimental thing (or something all hold to in the same form)---just as not every view of Continuism is necessarily beneficial.

 

[JRSut1000]

I guess I see it this way, if we allow the LORD to truly show up as God in our homes, in our lives, and in our services... when the glory of the LORD is present, good things happen. Lives are transformed, people are healed, the good news is preached, etc. Wherever Y'shua went, you never seen an instance where someone approached him and he said 'nope you cant be healed today' or 'nope, that demon can stay in there a little longer'. He came to heal the blind (physically and spiritually) and to set the captives free, to raise the dead. I believe when God is allowed to be God, He is no respector of persons whether it's the deepest parts of Africa, the streets of New York, messianic congregations or mainstream churches. When people want God and search for Him, He will show up. His 'body' is in all the earth, some are His and some are not, but He longs to restore them, to make them whole, and to build them up so they can testify of Him.

I see it as simply as this - we serve a good God. He was good, He is good, always will be good. He isnt willing that any should perish or be lost, and He isnt willing that His own people stay broken.

 

[Qnts2]

God is not very keen on healing? He LOVES to heal His children! But like I said in a previous post, there is much unbelief that God wants to heal His children and it's evident in most groups.

And I wont go into the tongues issue, I do believe that charistmatics take that one and run with it to the extreme. I believe God can use the gift of languages/interpretation, but it has to be done 'decently and in order', not everyone babbling all at once. The gift is meant to edify the body.

And yes, if God wants to have His way in a service, why not? Y'shua healed on the Sabbath IN the synagogue! Also when He was teaching from Torah, He began to talk about how those scriptures talked about him. I'm sure they weren't expecting that. King David danced before the LORD in a tunic (whatever that means, but Im sure it wasnt the usual since his wife Michal scoffed at him and was cursed for it). And when the people were assembled for Shavuot in Acts, I bet they werent expecting God to outpour His Spirit and hear the Besorah of Messiah that day.

I have visited different kinds of churches and Messianic synagogues, as well as Judaism synagogues. Probably the freest service is the Old style Orthodox. The men say their prayers, independently, and then might go outside and visit. For the Torah portion, and homily, everyone goes back in. If you want to go thru the prayers in a group, the cantor will lead the prayers, but you don't have to say them with the cantor.

I have visited Charismatic churches. You start with singing. Usually some fast songs, and then some slower songs during which a pause occurs while people pray in tongues and they wait for a prophesy. Then it stops, and another song. The announcements. And another song. then sermon.

Other churches have a program for the service. And others are liturgical.

Messianic services might start with the candle lighting if Friday. Then songs, and then the siddur.

I am pretty sure that God has figured out how to get done what He wants to get done in any order of service.

But, the truth is, I have seen more of God moving, outside of the service. Most of what God does, falls into signs and wonders, which is more for the lost then the saved, so it makes sense to me that more 'miracles' occur in a place which is visible to those who are not yet saved.

 

[Chaplain David]

I do. I've experienced some of them.

QUESTION: Is there an MJ stance, if one can narrow it down to that, about "gifts of the Spirit?" Or is it an individual thing? I do not want to derail however and if you think my question does that anyone who wishes can pm me. My pm box is always open.

Shalom

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I guess I see it this way, if we allow the LORD to truly show up as God in our homes, in our lives, and in our services... when the glory of the LORD is present, good things happen. Lives are transformed, people are healed, the good news is preached, etc. Wherever Y'shua went, you never seen an instance where someone approached him and he said 'nope you cant be healed today' or 'nope, that demon can stay in there a little longer'. He came to heal the blind (physically and spiritually) and to set the captives free, to raise the dead. I believe when God is allowed to be God, He is no respector of persons whether it's the deepest parts of Africa, the streets of New York, messianic congregations or mainstream churches. When people want God and search for Him, He will show up. His 'body' is in all the earth, some are His and some are not, but He longs to restore them, to make them whole, and to build them up so they can testify of Him.

I see it as simply as this - we serve a good God. He was good, He is good, always will be good. He isnt willing that any should perish or be lost, and He isnt willing that His own people stay broken.

I definately believe that anytime there's demonic oppression, freedom is something we as believers should expect.

Spiritual deliverance is promised in the Atonement---such as what Acts 10:37-39 Acts 10 & Matthew 8:16-18 / Matthew 8 when Christ was not just healing physical problems---but casting out evil spirits. Go on the mission field and it'll always be amazing seeing ccurences where people were DEMON POSSESSED with SUPERNATURAL physical strength to do SERIOUS DAMAGE...like the man named Legion in Mark 5:9-11 / Mark 5...and the Power of the Lord was definately needed. One can see the same here in the U.S...but the point is that Christ promised His own the power to deal with it so that no one would have to say they came to the Lord and could never be delivered.

There are already examples in the Word where certain diseases were directly the result of others having SPIRITS of Infirmity that physically harmed their bodies...as with the woman bent over/crippled by Satan for years in Luke 13:10-12 Luke 13..and the same with the deaf/dumb spirit plaguing the little child in Mark 9:24-26 Mark 9

I guess part of me wrestles with how often it seems the immediate thing to do whenever there's sickness it seems to be assumed by many that praying for an immediate healing is what should occur...and yet, no one considers how the Lord may be concerned with what happens in the natural first. There was a good thread elsewhere that sought to discuss the issue in-depth, as seen in the thread entitled Healing, timing and doctors

In view of the lingering illness of Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-30), Trophimus (II Timothy 4:20), and perhaps Paul himself (II Corinthians 12:7-10, Galatians 4:13)---I don't see it where healing always occurred. Few doubt that Paul had a gift of healing, but his prayers for Epaphroditus weren&#8217;t answered, at least not at first Philippians 2:25-30, Clearly, Paul could not heal at will. Aside from Jesus, no one else could either! And there is no doubt if even Jesus could John 5:19, Mark 6:5-6). Some would conclude from Pauls FAILURE to heal his friend that the gift of healing was dying out at this juncture in the life of the church.(in spite of the fact that late in his ministry, in Acts 28:9, Paul healed everyone on the island of MALTA who came to him). It seems better to conclude that healing,whenever and wherever it occured, was subject not to the will of man, but to the will of God. No one, not even Paul, could always heal all diseases. Paul understood the occasional nature of gifts of healings&#8230;..

The fact that healing is an expression of divine mercy Philippians 2:27 means that it should NEVER be viewed as a RIGHT. I believe we should have faith for healing. But there is a vast difference between faith in divine mercy and presumption based on an alleged right.

And as said before, sometimes we can have healing available in natural ways the Lord already made available and yet we pass it up. Even with others like Timothy, when he was sick, Paul advocated for him to have a natural means of healing when telling him to use a little wine for his stomach (I Timothy 5:23).

Even in the OT, for men who walked in God's power, they did not always end up healed.

Kings 13:14
Now Elisha was suffering from the illness from which he died. Jehoash king of Israel went down to see him and wept over him. "My father! My father!" he cried. "The chariots and horsemen of Israel!"
2 Kings 13

Ironic that Elisha, the great giant of faith who had done so many miracles in his lifetime (and even one after his death in verses 21-22 in II Kings 13) would die from illness. But there's an element of mystery of the miraculous.

 

[JRSut1000]

So far considering this thread, it would seem it is an individual thing. I guess that's why I asked the question because I dont consider myself strictly 'messianic' because of what I believe concerning the gifts of the Spirit and the move of God. Aside from tongues, I do view many things similar with charismatics only I'm more 'skeptical' concerning the 'moves' we see on television and via mainsteam evangelists. I believe there is fake partly because people turn to greed and partially because people want the signs so much they 'force' a move of God and this is when things get out of hand. But I still believe in signs and wonders and healing for the people of God, not just for the sake of the unsaved. God does take care of His children and I believe He does this via the gifts of the Spirit (teaching, encouragement, hospitality, healing, deliverance, prophecy, etc). What kind of testimony to the unsaved is a broken and hurting 'Church' (for lack of better word)?

 

[JRSut1000]

My biggest point is: God does will to heal, deliver, set free, and make whole. Why these things are hindered or delayed, I dont know. Alls I know is God is good, the devil is bad and unbelief is a major reason we dont see much genuine things happening. God makes His home where He is welcome, if He isnt welcome in the capacity He desires then I believe He will withdraw at least for a time. Just like the one city he withdrew, because not many believed even though they demanded a sign.