Atheism. What are your thoughts?

[AtheistAlan]

AA,

You're missing the entire point of my question. The question of good and evil is one of the key reasons why I am not an atheist, so it is pretty darn important in my eyes. If there is no heaven nor hell, god, etc. then why should it matter that China, for a modern day example, represses it's own people? Why should we prevent another Holocaust from happening? From an atheistic perspective I cannot come up with a valid reason why the Holocaust was an evil act. From a Jewish, Christian, and Muslim perspectives I can come up with valid reasons to claim that the Holocaust was an evil act. Again, questions concerning morality are vital in my eyes and I cannot become an atheist without a satisfactory answers to these question.

I would appreciate it if you would answer my question as you promised to do so in your OP and not presume things about where I get my personal morality from

My apologies for making assumptions. The wording of your question make it seem that your morality of of Judeo-Christian origin.

Atheism does not care about morality. Atheism doesn't mean anything other than a disbelief in gods. So where do we get our morality from? I get it from myself. I do good things, and do not do bad things because I am responsible for my own actions. I only have once chance to do everything I can possibly do with my entire existence. There is no reward at the end. There is no eternal punishment for doing wrong. I can only be the person I am now.

I am good because I want to be.

Why should we not do evil things? Because they are evil. I would not like evil things done to me, so why should I do evil things to others?

If there is no heaven nor hell, god, etc. then why should it matter that China, for a modern day example, represses it's own people? Why should we prevent another Holocaust from happening?

Let me ask you a question. I'll try to be very direct. If there were no heaven or hell (eternal reward or punishment), would you go around raping, murdering, and stealing?

I would like to think not. I see no need in looking at bronze/iron age mythologies in order to find my moral system. Mind you, this moral system also condones slavery, men having domain over women, child abuse, murder, and genocide.

So where can you find your own morality? That is something that philosophy has been debating for ages. Need a hint? Try the golden rule. It's a good start.

I hope I have answered your question. Please let me know if I did not, or if I could be more clear.

-Atheist Alan

 

[AtheistAlan]

Preaching is good. All things are good with the creator of goodness. I testify.




God is right. I agree with God fully. I am right.

Why should I listen to your preaching? How is the Judeo-Christian God more right than the thousands of other gods? Most religions have held that they are the one true religion.

Why is yours different?

-Atheist Alan

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you agree that truth is truth, you are right. All that agree that truth is truth, truely, agree that God is truth.

I agree that truth is truth. I do not agree that God is truth.

A tree is a tree. Do you agree?

See the picture above? An elephant is an elephant. Do you agree?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[someguy14]

Why should I listen to your preaching? How is the Judeo-Christian God more right than the thousands of other gods? Most religions have held that they are the one true religion.

Why is yours different?

-Atheist Alan

Exactly. Test it. Try it. God invites it. God encourages it.
Shine a light into every place and explore the mysteries. Pray. If your a non believer, you don't believe that one can steal your soul right? Give yourself to God and be obedient to His every instruction that fits in with The Holy Bible. Test it. Your so interested in in the truth, but even a scientist can agree that a scientist must prove the theory in order to find it true or false. I invite you to test it. Not half heartedly, whole heartedly. How can one say that they are against helping those in pain to eliminate pain unless they are cold hearted and dead inside? The words from men who have suffered and provided a way to releave that suffering from their hearts, sincerly. You must agree that that is good, unless your heart is hardened and against loving one another.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Atheist Alan,

Speaking of philosophy can you reccommend any philosophers who have wirtten on the subject of morality, "good", "evil", etc.?

Thanks

 

[someguy14]

I agree that truth is truth. I do not agree that God is truth.

See the picture above? An elephant is an elephant. Do you agree?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Haha. What do those pictures of animals have to do with your point?

Truth is not a worldly thing as some presume. Truth is an eteranl blessing and defeats every imagination that decides to lie to itself with grand delusions. Truth has a source, and that source is the creator of all.

 

[Davian]

Preaching is good.

I do not see how being offensive is good.

All things are good with the creator of goodness. I testify.

And I dismiss your unevidenced testimony.

God is right. I agree with God fully.

So you agree with a character in a book.

I am right.

Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Exactly. Test it. Try it. God invites it. God encourages it.
Shine a light into every place and explore the mysteries. Pray. If your a non believer, you don't believe that one can steal your soul right? Give yourself to God and be obedient to His every instruction that fits in with The Holy Bible.

I'm disinclined to stone gays, thank you. But I'll follow the Bible if you follow the Qu'ran, then the Vedas, then the writings of the Bahaullah. Would you do that?

Test it. Your so interested in in the truth, but even a scientist can agree that a scientist must prove the theory in order to find it true or false.

That's not exactly how the scientific method work, but it's close enough.

I invite you to test it. Not half heartedly, whole heartedly. How can one say that they are against helping those in pain to eliminate pain unless they are cold hearted and dead inside? The words from men who have suffered and provided a way to releave that suffering from their hearts, sincerly. You must agree that that is good, unless your heart is hardened and against loving one another.

Perhaps, but wanting to help one's fellow man isn't the sole property of your Bible. It's the mantra of everyone, be they atheist or Christian, Buddhist or Hindu.

On a side note, you asked, "How can one say that they are against helping those in pain to eliminate pain unless they are cold hearted and dead inside?" - Mother Teresa, a woman upheld by the West as a paragon of virtue, revelled in poverty and suffering, because she felt the pain of others led her to God. In her own words, "I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people" - this is a vile view that comes solely from her religious beliefs, not any secular rationale. She even encouraged the baptism of dying patients, regardless of faith or consent.

Religion is what causes good people to do bad things. Not all the time, of course, but you only see good people doing bad things under its influence. The Catholic church, instead of helping those in pain, systematically and institutionally silenced raped children and moved their abusers to new parishes. Until very recently, Irish Protestants butchered their Catholic neighbours, for the sole reason of religion. Abortion doctors are killed, gay-friendly venues are bombed, etc. the HIV/AIDS epidemic is at its peak in Africa, because religious groups oppose the use of condoms. The rights of people of women, ethnic minorities, gays, non-Christians, etc, were or are held back by doggedly religious groups with wholly religious reasons.

Again, not all religious people do these things, but the people who do them do do so because of religion.

So why would someone not want to relieve the suffering of others? Because of religion.

 

[someguy14]

I'm disinclined to stone gays, thank you. But I'll follow the Bible if you follow the Qu'ran, then the Vedas, then the writings of the Bahaullah. Would you do that?

The Bible says, thou shalt not kill, do you disagree with that? I don't.

The Qu'ran says get 72 virgins for some deed to Allah. Do you agree with that? I don't.

The Bible says love thy neighbor as thyself. Do you agree with that? I agree with that.

The Bible says that those that are suffering wrongfully will be avenged. Do you agree with that? I agree with that.

No matter how much another disagrees with The Bible, the fact is, that it is good, and inwardly they agree with The Bible, or they are murderers, thiefs, fornicators and lost. The Bible teaches to do good to one another. Any against that must be promoting evil and the downfall of all humanity with hatred.

 

[AtheistAlan]

Truth has a source, and that source is the creator of all.

All, as in everything?

Rape, murder, torture, bacteria, viruses, crib death, racism, poverty, sickness, birth defects, rashes, ant killing zombie fungus (this exists, look it up), pedophilia, cults, human sacrifices, starvation, ALL world religions, and Justin Bieber are all things created by the Creator, aka God?

Seems like he could have left a few things out. You know, to make things less terrible from time to time.

-Atheist Alan

 

[someguy14]

That's not exactly how the scientific method work, but it's close enough.

Feel free to explain how that works there. If a scientist isn't interested in the truth of a test, than that so called scientist is a failure. A theory, a hypothosis. Dilusional words for doesn't exactly understand but taking a stab at it anyway.

How many donation dollars are wasted on oh well, let me try again?

The ultimate goal is to find truth and if they fail at finding the truth, then they admit that more studying is required.

Atheists have failed to find the joy, the understanding, the knowledge, the truth, the purpose of The Holy Bible. Don't give up. Test it, find it. Pray and study till it makes sense, believe. Then you will have your answer. Otherwise your basing your decision off of untested, theories and assumptions and hatred and avoiding the actual truth.

 

[AtheistAlan]

The Bible teaches to do good to one another. Any against that must be promoting evil and the downfall of all humanity with hatred.

Do good to one another was a concept that was around long before the Bible.

And I must believe exactly as you do, or I am evil and want the downfall of all of humanity? Take a guess how many people different religions have told me that story?

Again I ask, what makes YOUR religion the one true religion?

-Atheist Alan

 

[someguy14]

Do good to one another was a concept that was around long before the Bible.

God, the creator has been before time began. What is your point?

And I must believe exactly as you do, or I am evil and want the downfall of all of humanity?

If I say doing good is good, how can you disagree with me, unless you are for doing evil?

 

[AtheistAlan]

Feel free to explain how that works there. If a scientist isn't interested in the truth of a test, than that so called scientist is a failure. A theory, a hypothosis. Dilusional words for doesn't exactly understand but taking a stab at it anyway.

How many donation dollars are wasted on oh well, let me try again?

The ultimate goal is to find truth and if they fail at finding the truth, then they admit that more studying is required.

So if we don't find some sort of "truth" the first time, we should just give up forever? That doesn't seem very conducive to progression.

Oh and I believe you may not understand what a scientific theory is.

You don't float away, due to gravity. There is a gravitational theory. I never hear anyone trying to teach the controversy. I have never heard that "it's just a theory" when referring to gravitational theory. As likely, I don't hear about anyone willing to dispute the power of the atomic bomb, or the validity of the atomic theory.

I challenge you to actually study some sort of chemistry, physics, astronomy, or biology in a higher learning setting, and then tell us how we are delusional. Ignorance of science, and by extension the natural world, doesn't make one more right, it only makes one more ignorant.

-Atheist Alan

 

[Eudaimonist]

Haha. What do those pictures of animals have to do with your point?

What did your statement "a tree is a tree" have to do with your point?

My point is that tautologies don't say anything of consequence about reality. They merely affirm that whatever a thing is, it is.

Truth is not a worldly thing as some presume.

Of course it is. There is no other kind of truth. None whatsoever.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[AtheistAlan]

God, the creator has been before time began. What is your point?

I ask again, how do you know?

If I say doing good is good, how can you disagree with me, unless you are for doing evil?

Where did this come from? Also, if I disagree with you, that makes me evil? Seems like a very narrow set of morals. And how does this improve your argument?

Again, why won't you answer me? How do you know that your religion is the one true religion?

-Atheist Alan

 

[BobRyan]

Atheists (many of them ) are good people. Most Christians like them because it is from atheists and deists that a number of Christian converts come. And that does not happen by having Christians be mean to atheists.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[AtheistAlan]

Atheists (many of them ) are good people. Most Christians like them because it is from atheists and deists that a number of Christian converts come. And that does not happen by having Christians be mean to atheists.

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you for your wonderful post.

-Atheist Alan

 

[drjean]

Not really. There is hard, scientific evidence that homoeopathy is nothing more than a placebo, yet it's an enormous. We know that the Earth isn't flat, yet Flat Earthers persist. We know the Earth isn't the centre of the universe, yet geocentrism exists. We know the Earth is billions of years old, yet Young Earthers persist. We know vaccinations are good, safe ways to combat deadly disease, yet the anti-vaccination movement persists.

As much as I'd like to share your belief that humans are fundamentally scientific in their beliefs, this simply isn't the case. Sometimes, people just don't take an objective look at the evidence.

So, even if there were hard, scientific evidence that showed each and every verse of the Bible to be balony, that wouldn't stop people from being Christian.

The truth is that there is evidence for some parts of the Bible (Egypt was a real place, the Pharaohs were real people, etc), evidence against other parts (the Sun didn't halt in the sky to allow an extra day of slaughter, as per Joshua 10:13), and no evidence against the rest.

So, it makes no sense to say there's no evidence for or against the Bible, because the Bible makes a lot of claims, some true, some not, some demonstrable, some not.

But you think that stops the Creationists? Your optimism is endearing, but misplaced


This is a forum, debate and discussion is the name of the game.


The main reason someone is an atheist, is because they see no evidence or reason to believe in deities.

Obviously you aren't a scientist in search of proving nor disproving the Bible. It makes no claims that are not correct ( experts would be all over the world touting such news! ) But that's ok... moving along.

Some of the arguments have no bearing upon my beliefs nor my salvation, which if I were someone without God, would be my first priority... just in case I as wrong about no after life, you know?

Anyway, a few thoughts.
Actually, some vaccinations are deadly to me. How do I fit into your scenario that they are safe across the board?

Young Earthers? Well, what if the premise is true for all creation, that God created man fully born, with the appearance of age... so perhaps it could be that God created earth, plants, etc with the appearance of age, without having to go through growing process initially. It appears to me to be unprovable either way...completely... why bother with it?

Geocentrism... hmm did the Hubble scientists (or equally magnificently intelligent ones) just publish something about how as they realize the universe is expanding, that just perhaps that our solar system---or was it earth itself?-- just could be the very center? Oh well, it's something that can't be disproven for we don't have all the data... and yes, in some ways the sun does rotate around the earth... guess it depends upon one's perspective doesn't it?

I think that's what you're dealing with... inability to consider other's perspectives...and most of all, GOD ALMIGHTY's perspective. What if He really does exist, wouldn't you want to know that and consider that?

 

[someguy14]

So if we don't find some sort of "truth" the first time, we should just give up forever? That doesn't seem very conducive to progression.

So your a scientist?
Not give up, encourage all resources. If the answer is God and you disagree with God and don't exercise Gods ability, then your failing in your pursuit for the answer. Science is a neutrality and therefore must be treated as a neutrality, where the right answer is always the best solution.