Is contextual understanding a core value of Messianic Judaism?

[mishkan]

and I believe the major contest here is, is it right that MJ see it in the Hebrew root context?

Agreed.

Without realizing it, most of us pick up a Bible, read it in English translation, pour a ton of meanings from Webster's English Dictionary into the translated text, and create theology out of thin air, with nary a shred of real supporting rationale. I know that's how it worked for me, some 35 years ago.

But that can't be where we stop. We have to learn to:

1. remove our assumptions from the text (difficult!!!)
2. learn the culture and language of first century Judaism
3. study sources contemporary with the Bible, to see how language and culture affected others of the same period
4. be objective with the texts--look for all possible interpretations, and select the most accurate one based on the preponderance of evidence

In most cases, what goes by the name of, "the Holy spirit", is really just us pouring our subjective biases into a situation, and claiming after the fact that "it must have been God".

I do believe that God moves us in certain directions at certain times. But he usually uses circumstances and the wise advice of mentors and counselors... not voices in our heads. We "listen" to Hashem by reading the stories of how he guided others in the past, and looking for similarities in our own situations. That gives us a sense of how he would direct us in the present.

Scripture is our source for the teachings of the Almighty. But we have to understand the language, culture, and history that set the stage for his teachings, so that we may draw accurate lessons from the original.

I once heard a sermon where a pastor went on for 20 exuberant minutes about how others should be able to "see Christ through us!" His premise? "We are spectacles for Christ"!



Needless to say... while his intention was good, his grounding in proper Biblical understanding suffered severely, and called into question everything he ever said.

 

[Avodat]

Agreed.

Without realizing it, most of us pick up a Bible, read it in English translation, pour a ton of meanings from Webster's English Dictionary into the translated text, and create theology out of thin air, with nary a shred of real supporting rationale. I know that's how it worked for me, some 35 years ago.

But that can't be where we stop. We have to learn to:

1. remove our assumptions from the text (difficult!!!)
2. learn the culture and language of first century Judaism
3. study sources contemporary with the Bible, to see how language and culture affected others of the same period
4. be objective with the texts--look for all possible interpretations, and select the most accurate one based on the preponderance of evidence

In most cases, what goes by the name of, "the Holy spirit", is really just us pouring our subjective biases into a situation, and claiming after the fact that "it must have been God".

I do believe that God moves us in certain directions at certain times. But he usually uses circumstances and the wise advice of mentors and counselors... not voices in our heads. We "listen" to Hashem by reading the stories of how he guided others in the past, and looking for similarities in our own situations. That gives us a sense of how he would direct us in the present.

Scripture is our source for the teachings of the Almighty. But we have to understand the language, culture, and history that set the stage for his teachings, so that we may draw accurate lessons from the original.

I once heard a sermon where a pastor went on for 20 exuberant minutes about how others should be able to "see Christ through us!" His premise? "We are spectacles for Christ"!



Needless to say... while his intention was good, his grounding in proper Biblical understanding suffered severely, and called into question everything he ever said.

Obviously made quite a spectacle of himself in the process!

 

[Qnts2]

Oops, duplicate

 

[anisavta]

Wondered when the usual label war would begin! You never let us down Qntsala.

 

[anisavta]

Any logical, critical thinker uses, and needs for that matter, context. If we say MJ does not consider contexual understanding a core value, then we destine MJ to a one faceted, mindless entity. And that it is not!

 

[Yahudim]

There are always two that we can count on to play devil's advocate.

 

[Qnts2]

Agreed.

Without realizing it, most of us pick up a Bible, read it in English translation, pour a ton of meanings from Webster's English Dictionary into the translated text, and create theology out of thin air, with nary a shred of real supporting rationale. I know that's how it worked for me, some 35 years ago.

But that can't be where we stop. We have to learn to:

1. remove our assumptions from the text (difficult!!!)
2. learn the culture and language of first century Judaism
3. study sources contemporary with the Bible, to see how language and culture affected others of the same period
4. be objective with the texts--look for all possible interpretations, and select the most accurate one based on the preponderance of evidence

In most cases, what goes by the name of, "the Holy spirit", is really just us pouring our subjective biases into a situation, and claiming after the fact that "it must have been God".

I do believe that God moves us in certain directions at certain times. But he usually uses circumstances and the wise advice of mentors and counselors... not voices in our heads. We "listen" to Hashem by reading the stories of how he guided others in the past, and looking for similarities in our own situations. That gives us a sense of how he would direct us in the present.

Scripture is our source for the teachings of the Almighty. But we have to understand the language, culture, and history that set the stage for his teachings, so that we may draw accurate lessons from the original.

I once heard a sermon where a pastor went on for 20 exuberant minutes about how others should be able to "see Christ through us!" His premise? "We are spectacles for Christ"!



Needless to say... while his intention was good, his grounding in proper Biblical understanding suffered severely, and called into question everything he ever said.

I believe God is able to convey His meaning without knowing Jewish culture. When God wrote the scriptures, He being all-knowing, knew that there would be millions of Gentiles, who would not have contact with the Jewish people or Jewish books so He wrote it so that all would be able to know what He was saying. Of course that revelation is by the Holy Spirit.

I have listened to multiple sermons concerning the 'eye of the needle'. The theory was that a person must unload their burdens from the camel (stuff they are carrying) and the camel must get on its knees (Humbleness), to get into the Jerusalem gate called the eye of needle. And that was what Yeshua was talking about. But, historically, the gates called the 'eye of the needle' are Arabic and there was no such gate in Israel until centuries later, when the Muslims ruled and conquered Israel. This sermon has been popular and repeatedly passed around. But is not historical or accurate.

We do not have to unload burdens before entering the city of God. That would be a works salvation. We don't clean up to be saved, so even the application is off. We come as we are, and it is God who does the lifting of the burden and the cleaning.

In the 60's and 70's, many Jewish people came to believe on Yeshua through a very dynamic revelation of the Holy Spirit. So, Messianic Jews tend to believe in the dynamic revelation and teaching of the Holy Spirit. Messianic Judaism (MJAA and UMJC) were more charismatic in view. The MJAA is still mainly charismatic (the gifts have not ceased). I am not sure about the UMJC.

 

[Yahudim]

MJ sees things in a Jewish roots context. For the most part, Hebrew roots is a term used by various predominantly Gentile organizations, like Two House. Just a comment on terminology, as when I hear Hebrew roots, I don't think MJ. I think of other groups. I become wary of a group which claims to teach Hebrew roots.

Jewish Roots as opposed to Hebrew Roots, huh? The former places tradition over scripture, claiming the instructions of the Most High for 'cultural markers', not to be shared with Gentiles. The latter places the Word of Elohim in proper context well above the traditions of man.

I know what I would choose.

 

[Qnts2]

Just for reference:

From the MJAA site:

MJAA: Teaching Jewish Roots


Inspirational, thoughtful, and thought-provoking teachings on the Jewish roots of the faith.

 

[Henaynei]

We use the term Jewish Foundations.

Yes, I agree that a salvific relationship with HaShem can be based solely on a p'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] understanding of scripture. This is fine if salvation is ones only concern. But a through understanding of the culture, context and PaRDeS of scripture gives one a full 3D living color view of G-d, instead of the merely black and white 2D only available through the non-contextual study approach.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[etZion]

Jewish Roots as opposed to Hebrew Roots, huh? The former places tradition over scripture, claiming the instructions of the Most High for 'cultural markers', not to be shared with Gentiles. The latter places the Word of Elohim in proper context well above the traditions of man.

I know what I would choose.

Let the Culture War begin!

 

[aniello]

MJs are not dummies. Of course context is essential for understanding, and growth.

 

[anisavta]

I believe God is able to convey His meaning without knowing Jewish culture.

He may be able to convey, but He chose to give us the ability to test the spirits and use discernment in all things. Therefore He gives us the joy and ability to use our minds and spirits to parse.
I grew up with that very idea - that G~d is able to convey His meanings w/out Jewish culture and I learned replacement theology, G~d does not hear any prayer unless one is a Christian, God was silent in the years between the Old and New Testament... and many more!

 

[visionary]

He may be able to convey, but He chose to give us the ability to test the spirits and use discernment in all things. Therefore He gives us the joy and ability to use our minds and spirits to parse.
I grew up with that very idea - that G~d is able to convey His meanings w/out Jewish culture and I learned replacement theology, G~d does not hear any prayer unless one is a Christian, God was silent in the years between the Old and New Testament... and many more!

And those rose colored glasses looked so good on you too.

 

[etZion]

I believe God is able to convey His meaning without knowing Jewish culture. When God wrote the scriptures, He being all-knowing, knew that there would be millions of Gentiles, who would not have contact with the Jewish people or Jewish books so He wrote it so that all would be able to know what He was saying. Of course that revelation is by the Holy Spirit.

Then by your understanding all who have the Holy Spirit should share the same conclusions, but that is not the case, unless you want to claim that you and only those who agree with you have the Holy Spirit, and everyone else does not. Your position does not add up... The only thing that is possibly true in what you said, is that anyone can believe and see God without having understanding of really anything, that is about as far as that goes.

 

[mishkan]

For the most part, Hebrew roots is a term used by various predominantly Gentile organizations, like Two House. Just a comment on terminology, as when I hear Hebrew roots, I don't think MJ. I think of other groups. I become wary of a group which claims to teach Hebrew roots.

I actually agree with this observation. Groups that use the term "Hebrew Roots" often reflect very un-Jewish mindsets and approaches. In my experience, many of them have no particular love for anything Jewish or Hebrew, other than that what they are hearing is "anti-Church". Many of them evidence outright hatred and loathing of all things rabbinic, including simple no-brainers like how to hold a Passover seder.

MJ sees things in a Jewish roots context.

On the other hand, I can't let you get away with this hugely broad claim, either.

Ever since you arrived in this forum, you have done your best to convince us that MJ is nothing more, nor less, than standard Christian theology and practice, with an eye towards creating an environment that is friendly to modern Jewish culture. You've made it sound like a believing Jew should be comfortable in any standard church, as long as they occassionally played "Hatikvah" and had lox and bagels at their potlucks. That may be your perspective on what you regard as Messianic Judaism, but that vision is way too limited to constitute anything that is likely to endure. It is guaranteed to result in complete assimilation within a generation or two. Even within traditional Judaism, the assimilation rate is appallingly high, and you are advocating putting cultural Jews in a context where they are surrounded by Gentiles and/or other cultural Jews. The assimilation rate can only go up, with that approach.

"Jewish Roots", as it has been consistently used in this forum, refers to the study of the history, culture, language, and theology of first century (and prior) Judaism, with an eye towards incorporating all these factors in the development of a world view that allows one to accurately perceive and interpret the writings we have preserved for us in the Bible. Just because one is born Jewish, that is no guarantee that s/he will have any sort of grasp on these issues. 95% of Jews today are Biblically illiterate, and apart from a few Talmudic stories, have no sense of Jewish culture prior to the medieval period. Modern Jews are likely to know more about the hamsa, eating "a bagel with a shmear", and "Eight Crazy Nights" than about the meaning of various Hebrew idioms, and how they should be applied in Biblical interpretation.

A valid Messianic Judaism must become part of the religious and cultural dialog that exists within Judaism, or it is doomed to fall back into the church missions world, as a failed attempt at cross-cultural missions. It needs its own grounding in historical realities, while also being able to speak to the modern issues and topics that are part of being Jewish. Both are required--lack of either will result in lack of balance, and either dissolution or severe distortion.

The solution is not to exclude Gentiles from MJ congregations, or to snidely discount all the research being done by Messianic Gentiles, but to learn with the Jews and the Gentiles the information necessary to develop a truly Messianic world view and theology--the "Messianic Perspective", as we used to call it.

 

[visionary]

How about the ideologies that change perspectives? For example....Torah Jews NEVER...use the defence: "HaShem can do whatever He wishes...lets not put Him in a box".... to defend ANY core belief in Judaism....because in Judaism - this nullifies the Torah. In other words, if it is outside Torah, it is outside of God's domain, character, and outside His behavior.

 

[anisavta]

And those rose colored glasses looked so good on you too.

They were purty! And they gave me the ability to see and hear alllll kinds of things that were attributed to the Holy Spirit. Never mind that some of it was a little off balance and even unscriptural. Aaaaaaannnnddd - the paradyme shift I had to make when I embraced the Jewish side of my faith - good grief - do you have a minute...

 

[mishkan]

They were purty! And they gave me the ability to see and hear alllll kinds of things that were attributed to the Holy Spirit. Never mind that some of it was a little off balance and even unscriptural. Aaaaaaannnnddd - the paradyme shift I had to make when I embraced the Jewish side of my faith - good grief - do you have a minute...

Actually, that is a story I'd love to hear. I could find a minute, or even two, to read it.

 

[anisavta]

"Jewish Roots", as it has been consistently used in this forum, refers to the study of the history, culture, language, and theology of first century (and prior) Judaism, with an eye towards incorporating all these factors in the development of a world view that allows one to accurately perceive and interpret the writings we have preserved for us in the Bible. Just because one is born Jewish, that is no guarantee that s/he will have any sort of grasp on these issues. 95% of Jews today are Biblically illiterate, and apart from a few Talmudic stories, have no sense of Jewish culture prior to the medieval period. Modern Jews are likely to know more about the hamsa, eating "a bagel with a shmear", and "Eight Crazy Nights" than about the meaning various Hebrew idioms, and how they should be applied in Biblical interpretation.

A valid Messianic Judaism must become part of the religious and cultural dialog that exists within Judaism, or it is doomed to fall back into the church missions world, as a failed attempt at cross-cultural missions. It needs its own grounding in historical realities, while also being able to speak to the modern issues and topics that are part of being Jewish. Both are required--lack of either will result in lack of balance, and either dissolution or severe distortion.

The solution is not to exclude Gentiles from MJ congregations, or to snidely discount all the research being done by Messianic Gentiles, but to learn with the Jews and the Gentiles the information necessary to develop a truly Messianic world view and theology--the "Messianic Perspective", as we used to call it.

Omein v'omein!