New Perspective on Paul.

Yahudim

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I'm going to step in. There are doctrinal statements that say Messianic Judaism is part of the body. Messianic is too loose of a term almost meaning a denomination. What is a Messianic believer? It could be a badge that one keeps Shabbat as an example. But does it in reality?

Why can't a believer who calls himself a Baptist which also denotes he's a Christian be a Messianic believer in regards to replacement theology as an example. Why isn't it possible that a Baptist can worship on
Sunday and also regard Jewish roots as important. An example would be Passover. You'd be surprised how many churches have a Seder because they realize the significance. They usually seek people from organizations that would lead the Seder. I know our congregation does Seders for churches around the area.

The question is... Does one need to be a leftist?
So questioning replacement theology and having a Seder at your church once, qualifies you as a Messianic? Wow. The movement is much larger than I thought.

But again, under your definition, a large percentage of the members of CF qualify for membership in the Messianic Judaism forum. :confused: So when do the multi-membership icons come out? Perhaps I could become a Roman Catholic, Pentecostal, Chassidic Messianic Gentile Rabbi... or rabbit. :D
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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So questioning replacement theology and having a Seder at your church once, qualifies you as a Messianic? Wow. The movement is much larger than I thought.

I asked you first. "Why can't a believer who calls himself a Baptist which also denotes he's a Christian be a Messianic believer in regards to replacement theology as an example. Why isn't it possible that a Baptist can worship on
Sunday and also regard Jewish roots as important. An example would be Passover. You'd be surprised how many churches have a Seder because they realize the significance. They usually seek people from organizations that would lead the Seder. I know our congregation does Seders for churches around the area. "

talmidim said:
But again, under your definition, a large percentage of the members of CF qualify for membership in the Messianic Judaism forum. :confused: So when do the multi-membership icons come out? Perhaps I could become a Roman Catholic,
Pentecostal, Chassidic Messianic Gentile Rabbi... or rabbit. :D

I just asked a question 'is it possible'. Are you going to address my question without a question. I said in regards too XYZ. I'm referring to Messisnic beliefs.

Does one have to be all in Messianic Judaism or can one have some important Messianic beliefs such as against replacement theology, that Israel does have a significant role in God's plan of restoration and the like.

And a related question... Can a chaplain or Pastor make potential impact with his sheep?
 
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Chaplain David

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I'm wondering whether the what constitutes an MJ and what doesn't topic should be pruned from this thread and a new thread started. Naturally our forum has an SOP which defines MJ for forum purposes. Then the OP could continue. In all cases we will be courteous and respectful with each other. We don't want to derail the thread on the Apostle Paul. Shalom.
 
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Yahudim

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I asked you first. "Why can't a believer who calls himself a Baptist which also denotes he's a Christian be a Messianic believer in regards to replacement theology as an example. Why isn't it possible that a Baptist can worship on
Sunday and also regard Jewish roots as important. An example would be Passover. You'd be surprised how many churches have a Seder because they realize the significance. They usually seek people from organizations that would lead the Seder. I know our congregation does Seders for churches around the area. "



I just asked a question 'is it possible'. Are you going to address my question without a question. I said in regards too XYZ. I'm referring to Messisnic beliefs.

Does one have to be all in Messianic Judaism or can one have some important Messianic beliefs such as against replacement theology, that Israel does have a significant role in God's plan of restoration and the like.
I asked first? Really? As if questions don't convey information too?

I thought you might understand that I am talking about a faith group forum, not just background baggage. While I can pick and choose some things about any belief system that I agree with, the same does not work in a forum that has specific divisions based along denominational or faith group lines.

Marc, it's already clear that many in this forum come from different backgrounds. That is not the issue in my way of thinking. But as a faith group forum, it is not enough to simply have a line. The line should be defined. In case you haven't noticed, this is precisely why we have had so many trolls cycling in and out of here.

If being Messianic in terms of forum membership does not have any other requirements than what you have suggested, then I stand by my original assessment. You may as well give out Messianic rings in Cereal boxes. Perhaps some type of flavorful 'loops' might be appropriate. ;)
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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I'm wondering whether the what constitutes an MJ and what doesn't topic should be pruned from this thread and a new thread started. Naturally our forum has an SOP which defines MJ for forum purposes. Then the OP could continue. In all cases we will be courteous and respectful with each other. We don't want to derail the thread on the Apostle Paul. Shalom.

Ok maybe I wasn't clear. I emphasized I hope between Messianic Judaism, Messianic and Messianic beliefs. I hope I didn't imply that Messianic beliefs are actually beliefs of Messianic Judaism. I also said that people use Messianic loosely.

Thanks for bring it up though.
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Lunch is over. OK Marc, you win. Anyone can play. No belief or lifestyle change required. Be the first Messianic on your block. All are welcome. :D

I didn't say no belief or lifestyle change. I said there are Christians that don't support replacement theology and know that Israel has a significant role in God's plan of restoration. That is certainly a significant belief change wouldn't you think? I would say most definately a Messianic belief.

I'll ask you again... Is it possible for a Christian to have this belief/s which is core in Messianic Judaism. Or are you saying that if a Christian or church has this belief/s they should come out of the church and join a Messianic Jewish congregation.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Does one have to be all in Messianic Judaism or can one have some important Messianic beliefs such as against replacement theology, that Israel does have a significant role in God's plan of restoration and the like.

And a related question... Can a chaplain or Pastor make potential impact with his sheep?
I think what you noted here goes back to what has been said before when it comes to how many vehemently disagree with organizations central in the founding of MJism today such as the MJAA or the Hebrew Christian alliance and say that others apart of it cannot qualify as truly "Messianic" even though the overwhelming about of MJish congregations say otherwise. For the moment one goes the route of saying other MJish organizations are not Jewish and cannot define it fully for others since others are not represented, it opens the door for saying that others not fully in the Messianic Jewish camp as defined by the mainstream organizations have a say in being involved as well.

It's like living in a country defining citizenship a certain way--but disagreeing with it due to many factors...and then choosing to step out of that zone and saying "You don't have to be within the boundaries of what that country defines to be a true citizen of things like they say" and noting where you/others are more representative of being citizens than others since you view yourself as the natural evolutionary step that things have gone into (and thinking the country you hailed from is outdated).... but then telling others also outside the zone that they don't have the right to do the same because they're in a camp out of the one you disagree with.

This has come up in regards to other Messianic Jews who attend churches on Sunday because it's their preference...and yet they love TOrah, Judaic customs and live it out daily. Because they are outside the zone in the view of others who go to synagouge on Saturday, they are told that they cannot be "Messianic"/"Messianic Jewish"....but the same people are outside as well.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Reform Judaism is disconnected from Orthodox and even Conservative Judaism. There's somewhat of a disconnect between Conservative and Orthodox but the meat that binds them together is 'who is a Jew', they are united with this. Reform Judaism isn't and this is a huge disconnect.

It seems like the NPP agrees with traditional Judaism in regards to the 'boundary markers' most notably circumcision. So this traditional Judaism would agree with.

Messianic Judaism from my experience is reform Judaism in regards to 'who is a Jew'. Convservative and Orthodox are united from the mother. Reform Judaism and Messianic Judaism are united that it's either matrilineal or patrilineal.
Since Israel rabbinate are Orthodox then it's from the mother.

Although I was raised between reform and conservative my family has taken the conservative belief in this regard.
Interesting points that you raise, as it concerns the ways that MJism is very much Reform Judaism in a myriad of ways.....and that the NPP does seem to go with that.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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.... the NPP at least is swinging towards the middle in relation to the aspect of Paul still being a Torah observant Jew and that the exegesis of 'to the Jews I became like a Jew and to the Gentiles I became like a Gentile'.

The above is what I'm interested in.

If you're are one that believes that all believers are to keep the Law then that aspect of the NPP you wouldn't agree with.

I usually take the good stuff and leave the bad. The likes of Nanos are not silent on the addressing of non Jewish believers in Christ. Wright is somewhat silent because of probably a different aspect.
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Brother Mpossoff,

Curious if you have ever been able to investigate these specific resources from Wright:

As said in one of Wright's books:

He [Jesus] had not come to rehabilitate the symbol of the holy land, but to subsume it within a different fulfillment of the kingdom, which would embrace the whole creation. …Jesus spent his whole ministry redefining what the kingdom meant. He refused to give up the symbolic language of the kingdom, but filled it with such new content that, as we have seen, he powerfully subverted Jewish expectations.
Jesus and the Victory of God (London: SPCK: 1996), 446, 471. 17.

Through the Messiah and the preaching which heralds him, Israel is transformed from being an ethnic people into a worldwide family
The Climax of the Covenant (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1991), 240. 18.

Those who now belonged to Jesus’ people were not identical with ethnic Israel, since Israel’s history had reached its intended fulfillment; they claimed to be the continuation of Israel in a new situation, able to draw on Israel-images to express their self-identity, able to read Israel’s Scriptures (through the lens of Messiah and spirit) and apply them to their own life. They were thrust out by that claim, and that reading, to fulfill Israel’s vocation on behalf of the world
The New Testament and the People of God (London: SPCK, 1992), 457–58.


With the New Perspective of Paul, one of the central issues in debate is how is it that others are to see Israel--for whereas many see Paul supporting what most people in Christian Zionism do with saying the physical land of Israel is only for Jews/all others must leave, those seeing Paul as being open to it being more diverse fall on the other side of the debate and feel that Paul truly was for Judaism and yet felt that others disqualified themselves from inheriting it if they did not trust in Messiah...and that Paul would've been a Jewish theologian/consistent with the viewpoint just as there are others today who are in Judaism (such as many Orthodox Jews protesting against the State of Israel) and yet believe that those claiming Israel should be supported by all are wrong since they feel that they are currently in disobediance to what the Lord commanded to the Hebrews on what it took to remain in the Land.

N.T. Wright has often come up in regards to others who may be against Zionism, as his NPP views are often used in support of others saying that Israel itself is far too restrictive and justifying of things done toward others that are not Biblical. There was actually a conference on the issue where I believe Wright may've been in attendance called "Christ at Checkpoint." And others sought to speak on the subject, including Dan Juster, in regards to how others needed to see Paul as supporting what other MJish believers feel with wanting the Promise Land to be for Jews. For more:





Personally, I'm more than for the thought of how believers are to be in prayer for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122), although I'm also not of the mindset that all things done in the name of Jerusalem were ever things that the Lord himself was ever pleased with....or things he called us to support at the expense of knowing how to truly love others....an more of this was discussed elsewhere in other threads critiquing aspects of Zionism that've been damaging...and some of this reminds me of what others have noted when it comes to their own critiques of Christian Zionism. For reference, one can go here , here , here or here in #25 , #5 , #10 ,#180 ....and one can also see here in regards to what others such as John Hagaee and other Zionists do when having a Mercenary mindset toward Israel starting war so as to bring back Messsiah), as discussed more in-depth in threads such as "Standing with Israel" /Obama calls for a return to pre-1967 Israel and Beautiful Video on Jews and Arabs in Messiah.. .
Where
 
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Chaplain David

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Thank you for getting back on topic. I'll just list it again for those who have forgotten. This is a long thread. Shalom.

I posted in another thread about the New Perspective on Paul. It's a convincing perspective.

A Summary of the New Perspective on Paul | The Paul Page

I just got done watching this video that's in line somewhat with the New Perspective called 'Paul Jewish theologian . It's from Yale. The teacher makes an interesting remark at the end. That Paul was a Jewish theologian, there was no such thing as Christianity, no Christians in Paul's letters. I suggest watching strongly suggest watching it, it's a must to start understanding Paul. You may not agree with some specifics but the moral of the story it helps to shed a light on a much better perspective on Paul, a Jewish Theologian and Torah observant. You don't necessarily have to watch it you can listen to it.

16. Paul as Jewish Theologian - YouTube
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Steve Petersen

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First post on CF is a plug for another website.

Is this allowed?[/quote

If I was looking for money I would agree. But 50 posts before being able to get to the point? A little over the top wouldn't you agree?

I am a witness of the Phoenix Lights UFO event of March 1997. I discovered a depiction of Isaiah 11:6 in the mountains about 10 years later which includes the wolf, lion, lamb, etc. bordered by a river that spells out Levi in Hebrew. Next to it is a skull.

While I would love to have small talk for 50 posts, I think it's a pretty significant find that I feel would appeal to Jews, Christians, Jewish Christians and Christian Jews.

Anyway the book is free for now - it's been in publication since 2007 - I'm just getting ready to go to press for the 2012 edition and would love feedback from the people who have the most vested in the story I tell.

Thanks for your consideration.

Are there advertisers on your website who pay you for hits, etc?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I see nothing in the rules that prohibits Kabbalah posting unless you consider Kabbalah to be the occult.. ''


It is my strong opinion that that Kabbalah is a path to the Christ Consciousness which is also known as being a Tzadiq or aspiring to achieving the Adam Kadmon template.


If I've overstepped my bounds by trying to introduce material that might shed light on the mystery of ancient texts - my apologies
The mods generally place it as well as other things within the realm of "other religions"..universalism being one of them that has been banned alongside discussion on homosexuality. If the mods don't have an issue, however, that's another thing. The same in regards to whether the author of the OP feels that the topic is dealing with what his aim was initially when it came to seeing Paul as a Jewish theologian. There was at least one thread where the subject of Kabbalah was discussed at length amongst others who were Messianic Jews...as seen in the thread entitled Thoughts on the Kabbalah?

But generally, it has been the case that Kabbalah has been considered as being another religion and one that cannot be actively promoted on the boards since the Messianic Judaism forums is a subset of Christianity as the administration see it while Kabbalah is not. The same goes for others promoting Judaism in the forum/discussing it without being Messianic Jewish members or posters since only Messianic members are allowed to actively promote teachings.
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Steve Petersen

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Here is some material from the book related to Paul:

Back to the Future

Earlier the astrology pointed out a Star of David in the sky chart for the Phoenix Lights. David showed up in relation to the skull in the landscape and the Ofanim of Ezekiel. Perhaps taking a longer look at the Biblical figure will enlighten the search for meaning in the Lights.

Throughout the Bible David is mentioned as God’s anointed first born and his king (Samuel did the anointing). David is given credit for writing most of the psalms and is revered above all other kings.

The name David means beloved. It symbolizes the transformation of our DNA gimel element (carbon), by walking through the door of dalet, into the final hey which both Abram and Sarai realized by comprehending God’s internal and external reality that contemporary seekers call All That Is.

We can find a dalet in the beginning and the end of David’s name with a vav in the middle. The expression Dor-V-Dor means from one generation to another. The second use of dalet expresses the nature of transitioning from one state to another. The text regarding David’s episode in Ein Gedi with Saul showcases how the bible repeats versions of other stories with character changes and chronological reversals reinforcing the notion of multi-dimensional time.

David was the eighth and youngest son of Jesse from the kingly tribe of Judah. He was also a direct descendent of Ruth the Moabite. David began his life as a shepherd in Bethlehem. One day, the prophet Samuel called him out of the field and anointed him without the knowledge of the current king, Saul. David simply returned to his sheep. His first interaction with Saul came when the king was looking for someone to play music for him, and the king’s attendant summoned the skilled David to play for him. Saul was pleased with David and kept him in his service as a musician.
Jewish Virtual Library: David, Shira Schoenberg

This is the Jesus story through the looking glass. Here we have the reverse situation of David descending from a Jesse of Bethlehem instead of Jesus of Bethlehem descending from David. David is descended from a convert and is a shepherd. Once named Saul, St. Paul the convert to Christianity will be a shepherd of his own flock.

The first time David publicly displayed his courage was when, as an inexperienced boy armed with only a stick and a few stones, he confronted the nine-foot, bronze armored Philistine giant, Goliath of Gath. After skilled warriors had cowered in fear for 40 days, David made a slingshot, invoked God’s name, and killed the giant. After this, Saul took David on as commander of his troops and David formed a close friendship with Saul’s son, Jonathan.
Jewish Virtual Library: David, Shira Schoenberg

David’s story now has a Yohannon entering the picture reflecting the story of Jesus. Yohannon was John the Baptist’s name. Again we see the relationship of Goliath of Gath to Golgotha – the place of the skull – both containing “head” elements along with death and overcoming it. The slingshot is interesting as it denotes boomerang properties found throughout this text. Perhaps the fear of Golgotha or death goes hand in hand with the conquering of our inner egotistic beast of Goliath.

Saul’s jealousy of David grew and he asked his son Jonathan to kill David. Jonathan was a friend of David’s, however, and hid David instead. He then went to his father and convinced Saul to promise not to kill David. Saul promised, and David returned to his service. This promise did not last and, after Saul attempted to kill David a second time, Michal helped David run away to the prophet Samuel in Ramah. David returned briefly to make a pact of peace with Jonathan and to verify that Saul was still planning to kill him. He then continued his flight from Saul, finding refuge with the king of Moab. On the way, the priest Ahimelech of Nob gave David a weapon. When Saul heard this, he sent Doeg the Edomite to kill 85 of the city’s priests.
Jewish Virtual Library: David, Shira Schoenberg

This creates a repeated pattern of Saul breaking promises to David. We also see the zealousness of Saul, which is reminiscent of St. Paul’s pre-conversion personality Saul of Tarsus.

In the course of his flight, David gained the support of 600 men, and he and his band traveled from city to city. At one point, in Ein Gedi, David crept up on Saul while he was in a cave, but instead of killing him, cut a piece from his cloak and confronted Saul. Saul broke down and admitted that David would one day be king and asked David to swear that he would not destroy Saul’s descendants or wipe out Saul’s name. David swore to this, but it did not stop Saul from continuing to pursue him. Finally, David and his supporters joined the service of Achish, the Philistine king of Gath who entrusted David with control of the city of Ziklag. Under Achish’s employ, David raided the cities of nomads who harassed the Jews and gave the spoils as gifts to the leaders of Judah to win their support for him against Saul.
Jewish Virtual Library: David, Shira Schoenberg

The Hebrew word in the Torah is skirt not cloak. This rending or tearing of the skirt could be referring to the Tree of Life where the Kingdom – Malkuth is split into Judaism and Christianity thus creating another “Fall” of sorts. Saul seems to recognize that it is David’s will to split the kingdom with the foresight that David will later restore it. Saul seeks assurance that his descendants (future converts to Christianity for St. Paul?) not wipe out Saul’s name.

In the book “Seth Speaks”, Seth claims that there were three personalities that made up the Christ entity – John the Baptist, Jesus and Saul/Paul. The other two aspects of this Christ entity, John and Jesus, were very satisfied with the way they played their roles. Paul was not. Because he didn’t have everything revealed to him, Saul/Paul struggled to set up a framework of ideas that would not strangle the emerging theology which he viewed as an extension of a less restrictive and more loving Judaism for the gentile world.

In my opinion, the unfinished aspect of the energetic Christ entity that Seth speaks of, seeks to fulfill its mission by introducing and clarifying the esoteric elements that religions have distorted through their fundamental or literal interpretations, which in many ways were designed to control the masses - not empower them. In particular, I believe all religions would benefit from an understanding of the Kabbalistic concept of the Adam Kadmon.

Man is not far enough advanced in sacred thought to comprehend the Universal Church, and so the work that God has given me to do is not the building of that Church. I am a model maker, sent to make a pattern of the Church that is to be – a pattern that the age may comprehend. My task as model builder lies within my native land, and there, upon the postulate that Love is son of God, that I am come to manifest that Love, the Model Church will stand.
The Aquarian Gospel 60:7-9

Readers, please note, this is not a quote from me but a missaplication of the quote function. The quote is actually from sbjazzman.
 
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Edial

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Folks.
Instead of arguing what belong or does not belong here please report or ask in MSC.

Promotion of non-Messianic doctrines as well as non-Nicean doctrines is not allowed.

I will be deleting some posts.

SBjazzman, if you have questions please open a private thread in Members Services where we could discuss such things.

Thank you.
Ed
 
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