New Perspective on Paul.

[Chaplain David]

I see 'US Army Retired' in your signature line.

Spend any time in Germany between '83 and '86?

I was with HHC, 3rd SUPCOM back then. Frankfurt and Wiesbaden. Worked for the SGS then the IG.

I spent 12 years in Germany but left Germany in 83 and went back to South Carolina. After that tour it was back to Italy. However I was at Hqs, 3rd Armd Div in Frankfurt in 69 & 70.

 

[Chaplain David]

sacerdote, I can't see sig lines on my iPod

Steve and sacerdote,
Please permit me the honor of Thanking you both for your service to our country and for the cost you and your families paid to ensure mine stay safe and free.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

It has been a while but you are welcome and an honor to be considered for service.

 

[Chaplain David]

As I mentioned in another thread where this came up. My DH and I have been teaching on this (NOT what's in the video) for a couple of decades.

He has written a book that you may find informative and insightful.

Galatians


Click here to go to the web site and mosey around. Scroll around, all the books were written by him.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I am interested. Thank you and peace be unto you and yours.

 

[Henaynei]

I am interested. Thank you and peace be unto you and yours.

It will greatly bless him to know his work has been helpful.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I understand your use of Hebrew in the Apostle Paul's title and name. However I do not know if he was a Messianic Jew or not. Perhaps after more experience and study I can determine that. But my question had to do with Paul stating He was an Apostle of Jesus Christ and would that not make him a Christian? Also, are Messianic Jews also not Christians? I have been told that MJ is a branch of Christianity. But isn't the head designation Christian? Aren't all branches and denominations of Christianity including MJ Christian? These are questions that you, other Messianic Jews plus my own training and experience are causing to surface. Your answering them on face value, and knowing they are coming from as unbiased a heart as I can have are extremely helpful to me.

When you have time this is a pretty good site about the NPP;

The Paul Page

 

[Henaynei]

I understand your use of Hebrew in the Apostle Paul's title and name. However I do not know if he was a Messianic Jew or not. Perhaps after more experience and study I can determine that. But my question had to do with Paul stating He was an Apostle of Jesus Christ and would that not make him a Christian? Also, are Messianic Jews also not Christians? I have been told that MJ is a branch of Christianity. But isn't the head designation Christian? Aren't all branches and denominations of Christianity including MJ Christian? These are questions that you, other Messianic Jews plus my own training and experience are causing to surface. Your answering them on face value, and knowing they are coming from as unbiased a heart as I can have are extremely helpful to me.

There are at least 2 camps on this. You have stated the one fairly clearly.
I, and some other Messianics I know and know of, see things slightly different.

To us there are two branches of the Body of Messiah or the Fellowship of Believers, Christianity and Messianic Judaism.

The current situation is not unlike how things were in the first century, only reversed. Then, it was felt by many sincere Jewish believers that the Gentiles coming to faith in the Jewish Messiah naturally had to become Jews to be part of the Fellowship of Believers. As you know it was decided by the Counsel of Messiah in Jerusalem (Acts 15 & 21) that was not necessary. Thus there were (and remained until around 400CE) the two groups; "Jews who believe and are zealous for the Law" and "Gentiles which believe" who only had to keep the 4 Noachide laws.

After the draconian rulings of Constantine's counsel against Jewish believers the Messianics eventually melted away either into the Church or the Synagogue by around 400CE and the Hellenistic paradigm of culture, calendar and worship became the normal in Christianity for nearly 2000 years. The Body was like a one armed man and frequently lost it's balance through those millennia. It lost the steadying influence of Judaism.

Today, because this Christianity has the only known way of things for worship, festivals or of viewing scripture, the contemporary believer "knows" that all believers are and must be Christians and what all Christians do and believe in common, no matter their denomination. Any system outside of that which claims to follow Messiah is either a cult, or worse, a heresy.

However, Messianic Judaism does stand far outside of the recognized systems, views and calendar that is Christianity.

For many of us the Body of Messiah/Fellowship of Believers has both Christians - Jews and Gentiles who serve G-d through the institutions and traditions of the Church, and Messianics - Jews and Gentiles who serve
G-d through the institutions, traditions and Laws of Israel.

We are truly brothers (and sisters ) of the same Father and saved by the same Grace and stand as equals before His Throne. But just as men and women have different instructions or calling given by G-d, so too has the Jew and the Greek/Gentile.

The right hand can not say of the left hand "I don't need you." But neither can it say "I am a left hand."

For a more in depth treatment of these issues, and one more scholarly and well written, I offer the suggestion that you read my husband's book, Jewish Roots: Reading the New Testament as a Jewish Document. It can be found on the same site as his Galatians book.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I understand your use of Hebrew in the Apostle Paul's title and name. However I do not know if he was a Messianic Jew or not. Perhaps after more experience and study I can determine that. But my question had to do with Paul stating He was an Apostle of Jesus Christ and would that not make him a Christian? Also, are Messianic Jews also not Christians? I have been told that MJ is a branch of Christianity. But isn't the head designation Christian? Aren't all branches and denominations of Christianity including MJ Christian? These are questions that you, other Messianic Jews plus my own training and experience are causing to surface. Your answering them on face value, and knowing they are coming from as unbiased a heart as I can have are extremely helpful to me.

Hi the NPP such as Nanos seek put Paul in proper perspective. If you watch this video with Mark Nanos you will get a jist. Nanos says the prevailing and common Christian idea is that Paul was against circumcision in a universaly. Nanos said in a NPP way that the question should be rephrased 'Do non Jews need to be circumcised? The jist of the video is the Shema. Is God the God of Israel only? No He's God of the nations too. In other words Christ resurrection has brought the awaited age from the prophets about Israel and the nations worshipping the One God based on the Shema. If Gentiles become Israelites by circumcision( conversion) then God is only the God of Israel only as Nanos says, contrary to the TaNaK.

The first video I posted I posted off the hip which is kind of sort of the New Perspective. But Nanos is the better to get a way better jist. I just watched the video again and if you want to get a quick jist go to 32:48 in the video and you'll get a summary. And then watch or listen to the beginning at a later time.

Paul And the Jewish Tradition - YouTube

 

[Chaplain David]

There are at least 2 camps on this. You have stated the one fairly clearly.
I, and some other Messianics I know and know of, see things slightly different.

To us there are two branches of the Body of Messiah or the Fellowship of Believers, Christianity and Messianic Judaism.

The current situation is not unlike how things were in the first century, only reversed. Then, it was felt by many sincere Jewish believers that the Gentiles coming to faith in the Jewish Messiah naturally had to become Jews to be part of the Fellowship of Believers. As you know it was decided by the Counsel of Messiah in Jerusalem (Acts 15 & 21) that was not necessary. Thus there were (and remained until around 400CE) the two groups; "Jews who believe and are zealous for the Law" and "Gentiles which believe" who only had to keep the 4 Noachide laws.

After the draconian rulings of Constantine's counsel against Jewish believers the Messianics eventually melted away either into the Church or the Synagogue by around 400CE and the Hellenistic paradigm of culture, calendar and worship became the normal in Christianity for nearly 2000 years. The Body was like a one armed man and frequently lost it's balance through those millennia. It lost the steadying influence of Judaism.

Today, because this Christianity has the only known way of things for worship, festivals or of viewing scripture, the contemporary believer "knows" that all believers are and must be Christians and what all Christians do and believe in common, no matter their denomination. Any system outside of that which claims to follow Messiah is either a cult, or worse, a heresy.

However, Messianic Judaism does stand far outside of the recognized systems, views and calendar that is Christianity.

For many of us the Body of Messiah/Fellowship of Believers has both Christians - Jews and Gentiles who serve G-d through the institutions and traditions of the Church, and Messianics - Jews and Gentiles who serve
G-d through the institutions, traditions and Laws of Israel.

We are truly brothers (and sisters ) of the same Father and saved by the same Grace and stand as equals before His Throne. But just as men and women have different instructions or calling given by G-d, so too has the Jew and the Greek/Gentile.

The right hand can not say of the left hand "I don't need you." But neither can it say "I am a left hand."

For a more in depth treatment of these issues, and one more scholarly and well written, I offer the suggestion that you read my husband's book, Jewish Roots: Reading the New Testament as a Jewish Document. It can be found on the same site as his Galatians book.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Wow, two camps. That's a lot to digest for this old Baptist, ex Catholic, ex Episcopalian and a few other denominations as well. This gives me a lot to think about but I have been through so many things I am fairly open minded about a lot of things others might not consider. You've written a lot for me to consider. I wish your husband's book was also in audio. Because of a confluence of illnesses and currently migraines certain cognitive functions like reading are very difficult for me if not impossible. I can shoot off a short post or read that but even when they get too long I'm having difficulty. Yet, life without difficulty is not life. We all have that. Shalom Sister.

 

[Chaplain David]

Hi the NPP such as Nanos seek put Paul in proper perspective. If you watch this video with Mark Nanos you will get a jist. Nanos says the prevailing and common Christian idea is that Paul was against circumcision in a universaly. Nanos said in a NPP way that the question should be rephrased 'Do non Jews need to be circumcised? The jist of the video is the Shema. Is God the God of Israel only? No He's God of the nations too. In other words Christ resurrection has brought the awaited age from the prophets about Israel and the nations worshipping the One God based on the Shema. If Gentiles become Israelites by circumcision( conversion) then God is only the God of Israel only as Nanos says, contrary to the TaNaK.

The first video I posted I posted off the hip which is kind of sort of the New Perspective. But Nanos is the better to get a way better jist. I just watched the video again and if you want to get a quick jist go to 32:48 in the video and you'll get a summary. And then watch or listen to the beginning at a later time.

Paul And the Jewish Tradition - YouTube

You're right, I need to listen to the videos. Today is the perfect day for it too.

I am sorry if I have in any way derailed your thread. I just had some questions. Thank you.

Shalom

 

[mishkan]

Paul was a self-proclaimed Apostle of Jesus Christ. If that does not make Him a Christian I do not know what would. So I will ask the question, what would?

The trick is to distinguish between what has become known in modern parlance as "Christianity" versus what the first believers experienced--a renewal of Jewish religion and Kingdom, living as part of a Jewish sectarian community.

Modern Christianity can be said to have roots in the first century sect, but they are no longer identical, and any fair treatment of the Biblical texts must take that into account.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

You're right, I need to listen to the videos. Today is the perfect day for it too.

I am sorry if I have in any way derailed your thread. I just had some questions. Thank you.

Shalom

I suggest Nanos. Although its a video you can listen without watching. Before he gets into how the Shema relates to the Gospel, he does a very good job at explaining what the Shema is first then ties it in with Paul. I think around 8 minutes 'ish he ties it in.

 

[mishkan]

Spend any time in Germany between '83 and '86?

I was with HHC, 3rd SUPCOM back then. Frankfurt and Wiesbaden. Worked for the SGS then the IG.

Wow! Small world!

I was stationed in Heidelberg in 1983 and '84. Traveled to Wiesbaden occasionally to service computer terminals there. My unit was known as WWMCCS (pronounced WIH-micks)--World Wide Military Command and Control Systems.

 

[etZion]

Wow, two camps. That's a lot to digest for this old Baptist, ex Catholic, ex Episcopalian and a few other denominations as well. This gives me a lot to think about but I have been through so many things I am fairly open minded about a lot of things others might not consider. You've written a lot for me to consider. I wish your husband's book was also in audio. Because of a confluence of illnesses and currently migraines certain cognitive functions like reading are very difficult for me if not impossible. I can shoot off a short post or read that but even when they get too long I'm having difficulty. Yet, life without difficulty is not life. We all have that. Shalom Sister.

If you are interested in a Messianic study on Galatians on audio, Tim Hegg, who is also a Messianic Jew does: Galatians Study (on 2 CDs) - Tim Hegg

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

New Perspective on Paul.

Just subscibing

.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Wow! Small world!

I was stationed in Heidelberg in 1983 and '84. Traveled to Wiesbaden occasionally to service computer terminals there. My unit was known as WWMCCS (pronounced WIH-micks)--World Wide Military Command and Control Systems.

Cool.

Army or Chair Force?

I was stationed at the Army Air Base (Erbenheim) near Wiesbaden.

Also visited a couple of Air Force kasernes (Schierstein?) near the river in Wiesbaden proper, not far from the Amelia Earhart Hotel.

 

[Lulav]

After hundreds and hundreds of years, one should ask why do we need a 'New perspective on Paul'?

Have hundreds of thousands of Christian theologians been wrong?

And let's not forget Jews too.

The quote I made was from a Jewish New Testament University Professor. Would love to hear some feedback on it.

 

[etZion]

After hundreds and hundreds of years, one should ask why do we need a 'New perspective on Paul'?

Because hundreds of years means we are right!

Have hundreds of thousands of Christian theologians been wrong?

There is no way man could be wrong, last time I checked man is perfect!

And let's not forget Jews too.

They have never been wrong either.

The quote I made was from a Jewish New Testament University Professor.

He has never asked a bad question.

Would love to hear some feedback on it.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The quote I made was from a Jewish New Testament University Professor. Would love to hear some feedback on it.

Wright answers that question;

"So I accept the historical challenge, and with that, I accept the essentially Christian position that God always has more light to break out of his holy Word. And there’s all the difference in the world between humbly saying “I want to find more light from Scripture than we have yet had” and saying “I’m going to prove the rest of the Church wrong and do something totally new!”

Read more;

Wright and Enlightenment Arrogance – Trevin Wax

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Wright was asked a short definition of the Gospel which you don't here;

" I could try taking a Pauline angle. When Paul talks about “the gospel,” he means “the good news that the crucified and risen Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and therefore the Lord of the world.” Now, that’s about as brief as you can do it."

what's interesting is this and I'll underline the emphasis; the crucified and risen Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and therefore the Lord of the world. Since Jesus is Israel's Messiah He's Lord of the world.

Wright on "The Gospel" – Trevin Wax

Then later on in this interview Wright says;

"The New Perspective starts with Ephesians. I actually think Ephesians was written between Romans and Galatians, but whenever you think it’s written, it’s in Ephesians that you get this close correlation between “by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works” and therefore, “you Gentiles are part of the same family with the Jews.” That’s Ephesians chapter 2. I didn’t invent that. I merely sort of observed."

Wright and Enlightenment Arrogance – Trevin Wax



See the relationship with the Gospel and what he said about Ephesians? Interesting you don't here this today.

 

[mishkan]

The quote I made was from a Jewish New Testament University Professor. Would love to hear some feedback on it.

Paul was comfortable asserting...

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit--that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

He is implying that those before him had missed out on a HUGE truth, and yet he constantly quotes the prophets to validate his claims.

We often take his meaning in this text to be, "Nobody ever heard this from God before, but I'm telling you he just told me about it last night." I think that is a wrong understanding. Paul's constant appeals to Scripture indicate to me that his view was, "God told us all this long ago... but we missed it!"

I believe we have the same issue today... only the names have been changed to protect the guilty.