Was the Lord's supper Passover?

[Messianic Jewboy]

Many people, from what I understand, don't really care to do things like Communion/the Last SUpper due to the belief that anything/everything from the Torah itself is the only thing that should be celebrated. Moreover, in their minds, most of what they see with Communion is not to be tolerated since the think it is not truly "Jewish."

First I'd like say personally I see nothing wrong with the Christian communion. Second we have a Seder which isn't in the Torah. Third I do think it's also a cultural thing too. I do think Paul taught non Jews communion, a non Jewish type Passover might be a description.

I've learned to start not being dogmatic and to consider likeness or similarities. However there's no doubt Jewish roots.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

First I'd like say personally I see nothing wrong with the Christian communion. Second we have a Seder which isn't in the Torah. Third I do think it's also a cultural thing too. I do think Paul taught non Jews communion, a non Jewish type Passover might be a description.

I've learned to start not being dogmatic and to consider likeness or similarities. However there's no doubt Jewish roots.

Can definately see where you're coming from...

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeah, I’m missing your point. The Synoptics have Jesus killed on Nisan 15, having already eaten the seder with his friends the night before. John has Jesus killed on Nisan 14, the day on which the sacrifice was being made. This is why only John makes the comment that the Jewish leaders could not enter the palace of the governor because they did not want to be made unclean and disqualified from eating the Passover (John 18:28). That statement didn’t come up in the Synoptics, since in those gospels the priests would already have eaten the meal the night before they brought Jesus for trial. Whatever your point, I don’t think it’s necessarily relevant. By the time of the NT, the Passover was seen as part of the feast of matsot, and it still is. Passover is the first day of Unleavened Breads, but it wasn’t called that in the Torah.

Interesting. Most people think that John and the others harmonize quite well on the date of the crucifixion, but that John is using a different emphasis (eg. the "day of preparation" could refer to the day of preparation for the Passover or the day of prep for the sabbath- as there is some synchronicity here.) But I haven't looked at this for ages. I remember there being good notes in the Orthodox Study Bible on this point.

You make good point on the feast of matsot etc. More to consider.

 

[ContraMundum]

When you say having both are you saying have a Passover Seder then a totally separate Lord's Supper, communion? Some Messianic congregations do that, they'll have the Lord's Supper once a month.

Personally doing that seems oxymoronic because the what's called the Lord's Supper was part of the same meal as the Passover celebration. They were both together. But most importantly the two are related both say to remember. From a Jewish standpoint I would find it an impossibility that the supper they had and the suppers they had in the past were not related to Passover.

From the Jewish perspective I like to think of Communion not as a passover meal, but more of a kiddush.

Some I'm not sure why you ask should Jewish people have both? Christians have communion once a month mostly. Christians don't celebrate remembering God's redemption from Egypt.

Most Christians aren't Jewish, so the Passover Seder is not for them anyway. If they want to pop along at Pesach and join in, fine and well and good. But they don't have to. On the other hand, it can be argued that they must have communion.

Know let's not be dogmatic and I don't want too. Should Jews celebrate both in the same meal? Assuming my points in previous posts hopefully helped to prove that they did and that what's called the Last Supper we read in scripture was an added element where the physical points to the spiritual. In other words when you remember God redeeming our ancestors from suffering from Egypt remember My suffering and deliverance from your sins.

I don't know if we can be dogmatic about that. As the timing of Communion is an adipahora it seems to me that it could certainly be part of a Haggadah. But, I really like traditional stuff, myself. So, I have Pesach the way the Jewish culture (currently) celebrates it and I have communion weekly at minimum. Works for me. I think any chance to get close to God is a good thing.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

As the timing of Communion is an adipahora it seems to me that it could certainly be part of a Haggadah. But, I really like traditional stuff, myself. So, I have Pesach the way the Jewish culture (currently) celebrates it and I have communion weekly at minimum. Works for me. I think any chance to get close to God is a good thing.

It is interesting to hear of many I've seen growing up that felt communion should only happen once a month..

 

[pat34lee]

Rather than enter the whole thing as a post, here is a link to the timeline from the entry into Jerusalem to the resurrection.

The Chronology of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection

 

[yonah_mishael]

Rather than enter the whole thing as a post, here is a link to the timeline from the entry into Jerusalem to the resurrection.

The Chronology of Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection

The person who wrote this up believes that the Passover meal is eaten on the evening of the 14th, after the sun has gone down on the 13th of Nisan. That's not true. The lamb was slaughtered in the afternoon of the 14th and eaten as it turned into the 15th of Nisan. There are plenty of harmonizations on the Internet, but most of them know nothing about Jewish practice with regard to Passover and I've not found one that takes all of the gospels into account. They either follow the Synoptics (Jesus at the Passover with his disciples) or they follow John (Jesus died when the lambs were being slaughtered and himself became the pascal lamb). These two arrangements of the events are incompatible, and I've not seen anyone really deal with it from a more fundamentalist perspective. Do you have any links to something that goes more clearly into the issues and also understands Judaism?

He actually placed Jesus' crucifixion on Wednesday, by the way. Talk about exaggerated!

 

[GuardianShua]

The person who wrote this up believes that the Passover meal is eaten on the evening of the 14th, after the sun has gone down on the 13th of Nisan. That's not true. The lamb was slaughtered in the afternoon of the 14th and eaten as it turned into the 15th of Nisan. There are plenty of harmonizations on the Internet, but most of them know nothing about Jewish practice with regard to Passover and I've not found one that takes all of the gospels into account. They either follow the Synoptics (Jesus at the Passover with his disciples) or they follow John (Jesus died when the lambs were being slaughtered and himself became the pascal lamb). These two arrangements of the events are incompatible, and I've not seen anyone really deal with it from a more fundamentalist perspective. Do you have any links to something that goes more clearly into the issues and also understands Judaism?

He actually placed Jesus' crucifixion on Wednesday, by the way. Talk about exaggerated!

Is there anything written to support that the passover lamb was slaughtered on the afternoon of the 14th?

 

[Avodat]

The person who wrote this up believes that the Passover meal is eaten on the evening of the 14th, after the sun has gone down on the 13th of Nisan. That's not true. The lamb was slaughtered in the afternoon of the 14th and eaten as it turned into the 15th of Nisan. There are plenty of harmonizations on the Internet, but most of them know nothing about Jewish practice with regard to Passover and I've not found one that takes all of the gospels into account. They either follow the Synoptics (Jesus at the Passover with his disciples) or they follow John (Jesus died when the lambs were being slaughtered and himself became the pascal lamb). These two arrangements of the events are incompatible, and I've not seen anyone really deal with it from a more fundamentalist perspective. Do you have any links to something that goes more clearly into the issues and also understands Judaism?

He actually placed Jesus' crucifixion on Wednesday, by the way. Talk about exaggerated!

That is arrived at by counting 3 days and 3 nights backwards from when Yeshua rose from the dead, at some point after sundown Saturday night (though it was not discovered that he had risen until sometime before it was light), as per Yeshua's statement.

 

[pat34lee]

The person who wrote this up believes that the Passover meal is eaten on the evening of the 14th, after the sun has gone down on the 13th of Nisan. That's not true. The lamb was slaughtered in the afternoon of the 14th and eaten as it turned into the 15th of Nisan. There are plenty of harmonizations on the Internet, but most of them know nothing about Jewish practice with regard to Passover and I've not found one that takes all of the gospels into account. They either follow the Synoptics (Jesus at the Passover with his disciples) or they follow John (Jesus died when the lambs were being slaughtered and himself became the pascal lamb). These two arrangements of the events are incompatible, and I've not seen anyone really deal with it from a more fundamentalist perspective. Do you have any links to something that goes more clearly into the issues and also understands Judaism?

He actually placed Jesus' crucifixion on Wednesday, by the way. Talk about exaggerated!

One major problem you will find is that many try to make the last meal Passover when that is not in the scriptures. The Lord's supper was not Passover. He was killed the afternoon of Wednesday, the 14th before the actual meal could be eaten. Thursday, the 15th, would have been the first day of unleavened bread, a high Sabbath.

 

[yonah_mishael]

One major problem you will find is that many try to make the last meal Passover when that is not in the scriptures. The Lord's supper was not Passover. He was killed the afternoon of Wednesday, the 14th before the actual meal could be eaten. Thursday, the 15th, would have been the first day of unleavened bread, a high Sabbath.

Let me get this straight...

You're saying that Jesus was killed before the first day of unleavened bread? You're saying that Jesus never ate that Passover meal with his friends?

 

[yonah_mishael]

Is there anything written to support that the passover lamb was slaughtered on the afternoon of the 14th?

Every single bit of Jewish writing on the issue. Have you ever read the Talmud? We have an entire tractate of the Talmud just on Passover, you know...

 

[GuardianShua]

One major problem you will find is that many try to make the last meal Passover when that is not in the scriptures. The Lord's supper was not Passover. He was killed the afternoon of Wednesday, the 14th before the actual meal could be eaten. Thursday, the 15th, would have been the first day of unleavened bread, a high Sabbath.

The calendar has changed over the years. Only the seven day week cycle has remained consistant. Preparation day before the Sabbath began was Friday the 13th. The Sabbath began at sundown on friday. Passover was from friday evening to Saturday evening. It would seem to me that the Passover Lamb would be prepared preparation day before the Sabbath began. The Sacred Hebrew calendar had the Feast days always on the same day of the week. After the first century the Civil Hebrew calendar was also changed. Both Hebrew calendars were in use during the first century.

 

[GuardianShua]

Every single bit of Jewish writing on the issue. Have you ever read the Talmud? We have an entire tractate of the Talmud just on Passover, you know...

Show us an example of what is written in the Talmud, in regards to the Passover Lamb being prepared on the Sabbath.

 

[pat34lee]

Let me get this straight...

You're saying that Jesus was killed before the first day of unleavened bread? You're saying that Jesus never ate that Passover meal with his friends?

Yes. He died at the time when the lambs were being sacrificed on the 14th. If he had eaten the Passover, he and the disciples could not have left the room afterward (Ex. 12:22).

 

[pat34lee]

The calendar has changed over the years. Only the seven day week cycle has remained consistant. Preparation day before the Sabbath began was Friday the 13th. The Sabbath began at sundown on friday. Passover was from friday evening to Saturday evening. It would seem to me that the Passover Lamb would be prepared preparation day before the Sabbath began. The Sacred Hebrew calendar had the Feast days always on the same day of the week. After the first century the Civil Hebrew calendar was also changed. Both Hebrew calendars were in use during the first century.

You are talking about a straight lunar calendar, which they did not use. The days of the week never reset at each new moon. So, while the moon phase may be the same on the 14th of each month, the day of the week, (Tues, Wed, Thu) would change month to month and year to year.

 

[GuardianShua]

You are talking about a straight lunar calendar, which they did not use. The days of the week never reset at each new moon. So, while the moon phase may be the same on the 14th of each month, the day of the week, (Tues, Wed, Thu) would change month to month and year to year.

The Lunar calendar was first introduced by the Hellenist in 167 BC. The Sacred Hebrew calendar is a solar calendar with 364 days a year. The additional 1.25 days were added back in later. That made the Holydays always on the same day of the week every year.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Show us an example of what is written in the Talmud, in regards to the Passover Lamb being prepared on the Sabbath.

Huh??

 

[yonah_mishael]

Yes. He died at the time when the lambs were being sacrificed on the 14th. If he had eaten the Passover, he and the disciples could not have left the room afterward (Ex. 12:22).

We go outside on Pesach night. There's no prohibition from taking a walk after the seder. I've never heard of such a thing before. There was an obligation for the people the first night not to go out - since they would not be in a protected home and would run the risk of being struck down in the street. However, it is not part of Pesach observance to sit in the house all night. For example, if you were blessed to celebrate the Pesach at your neighbor's house, you are not forbidden from walking home after the seder and relevant pleasantries. This is not a Pesach law - never was.

 

[GuardianShua]

Huh??

Like, lets see some text as proof.