National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone still here?

 

[godisreal36]

i am going to bed, after i watch a little tv.

I just wanted to post so i could subscribe, thanks

 

[godisreal36]

I'm not sure what this thread is about.

The title says Israel is cursed. The bible also says we are all cursed and have been so since Adam the first man. Jesus breaks this curse when we follow him i believe because all things work for the good of those that love God and following Jesus fulfills the law. I'm not a bible scholar but i do follow its simple meaning. The whole law can be summed up by the meaning of the word love. So i start there. God has many things he has said concerning his people Israel, one of which is that they are his forever and he loves them and we are not to curse them but bless them, and a curse is upon them that curses Israel. This is all i know.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm not sure what this thread is about.

The title says Israel is cursed. The bible also says we are all cursed and have been so since Adam the first man. Jesus breaks this curse when we follow him i believe because all things work for the good of those that love God and following Jesus fulfills the law. I'm not a bible scholar but i do follow its simple meaning. The whole law can be summed up by the meaning of the word love. So i start there. God has many things he has said concerning his people Israel, one of which is that they are his forever and he loves them and we are not to curse them but bless them, and a curse is upon them that curses Israel. This is all i know.

Who here has cursed them

 

[LovedofHim]

Israel has been abandoned to allow the gentiles to be grafted in and because of their unbelief. The prophets indicate that they will be restored after the church is taken away and the nation will be the main nation on planet earth.

 

[Biblicist]

The nation of Israel or more properly all those Jews who have rejected Christ Jesus as their Messiah are certainly under a curse and are no longer the Covenental people of God. For 2000 years the Lord has certainly kept a remnant of Israel so that his promises to the Patriarchs can be kept which is why we see the mighty nation of Israel now in existence.

Are they a blessed people, well it does seem that God has given them certain blessings at least so they can survive but in my view they are more cursed than blessed. We will certainly see all of Israel repenting before the Lord and acknowledging that they indeed did murder their Messiah 2000 years ago.

Israel certainly deserves our support but I do not think that we should be praying for Israel as they will only come to repentance after a time of intense persecution.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The nation of Israel or more properly all those Jews who have rejected Christ Jesus as their Messiah are certainly under a curse and are no longer the Covenental people of God. For 2000 years the Lord has certainly kept a remnant of Israel so that his promises to the Patriarchs can be kept which is why we see the mighty nation of Israel now in existence.

Are they a blessed people, well it does seem that God has given them certain blessings at least so they can survive but in my view they are more cursed than blessed. We will certainly see all of Israel repenting before the Lord and acknowledging that they indeed did murder their Messiah 2000 years ago.

Israel certainly deserves our support but I do not think that we should be praying for Israel as they will only come to repentance after a time of intense persecution.

That would appear to be a correct accessment

http://www.christianforums.com/t7084133/#post45434716
Difference between Repent and Reform question

Mark 1:15 And saying "has been filled the time and has-neared the Kingdom of the God.
Be ye reforming/repenting! /metanoeite <3340> (5720)! and be ye believing! in the Good-Message.

Revelation 16:11 And they blaspheme the God of the heaven out of the miseries of them, and out of the sores of them.
And not they repent/reform/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the works of them.

 

[someguy14]

All of Gods children will be saved.

 

[John 07]

and a curse is upon them that curses Israel.

btw, where is this in scripture?

 

[Biblewriter]

Originally Posted by godisreal36

and a curse is upon them that curses Israel.
​

btw, where is this in scripture?

Genesis 12:3 (KJV)
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[John 07]

Originally Posted by godisreal36

and a curse is upon them that curses Israel.

​

Genesis 12:3 (KJV)
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

But more than Abraham (his progeny) wasn't considered in this verse...was it? Isn't it just Abraham that the LORD was addressing and not his progeny? The end of 12.3 doen't say something like 'from generation to generation' nor is it repeated to any of his sons, grandsons, like some of the other promises were (as far as i checked).

Even if it was to be considered to continue to his progeny, doesn't it apply to all the sons of Abraham (Ishmaelites, sons of Keturah) wherever they are, including all the sons who are sons by faith?

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the sons of Abraham. (Gal 3:7)
​

 

[Biblewriter]

But more than Abraham (his progeny) wasn't considered in this verse...was it? Isn't it just Abraham that the LORD was addressing and not his progeny? The end of 12.3 doen't say something like 'from generation to generation' nor is it repeated to any of his sons, grandsons, like some of the other promises were (as far as i checked).

Even if it was to be considered to continue to his progeny, doesn't it apply to all the sons of Abraham (Ishmaelites, sons of Keturah) wherever they are, including all the sons who are sons by faith?

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the sons of Abraham. (Gal 3:7)
​

Genesis 21:12 (KJV)
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Genesis 21:12 (KJV)
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

NKJV) Romans 9:7 nor [are they] all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."

NKJV) Hebrews 11:18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God, out of the stones these, to raise-up children to Abraham.

Luke 26:25 Said yet Abraham "child! be thou being reminded! that thou got the goods of the in the life of the and Lazarus in like manner the evils,
yet now here he is being comforted and thou art being pained.

 

[Lysimachus]

Hentenza,

Matt. 23
37 &#8220;O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, &#8216;Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!&#8217;&#8221;

The conjunction "till" makes it clear that they will see Him again once they repent nationally. Here we see that national Israel will repent.

The expression "till you say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" does not whatsoever mean that they have repented. It simply means that the next time they see Him, He will be coming in the clouds of glory, but now they will perish. Revelation 1:7 says, "every eye shall see him", and Romans 14:11 says "every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess God." Does that mean they will all be saved? Of course not.

There is no intimation whatsoever that "till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" means they repented. It means that they are now FORCED to admit that He is the Messiah, but it is too late.

Also, probation for humanity closes the moment the 7 last plagues begin to fall. See Revelation 15:7,8 and 22:11,12. The Second Coming appears after probation is closed for humanity (see verse 12).

When will Israel repent? When the "time of the gentiles" is fulfilled.

A careful word study of Romans 11 shows that Paul is not saying that after the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, "THEN", Israel will be saved. Instead, the phrase goes "And SO all Israel shall be saved". This word "SO" is "houto", and it means "in this manner". In other words, by the FILLING UP OF THE GENTILES...this is "how all Israel shall be saved".

Meaning, the House of Israel is FILLED with Gentiles. That is, the Church. This also includes ethnic Jews. God's people are NOT divided. They will all be saved in ONE tree, not two trees.

Again, if Israel is cursed forever, as you propose, then why are the gates of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21) named after the 12 tribes of Israel?

1. Because the 12 names of the 12 tribes have spiritual significance to the Church, as they represent the character of God's people, in completeness.

2. Because the 12 apostles rule the 12 tribes of Israel, and the 12 apostles are the foundation of the Church.

Notice:

Matthew 19:28 - "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:12-14)

The New Jerusalem is a symbol of the Church because it is the "bride" of Christ (see 21:2, 9,10, c.f. 2 Cor. 11:2).

But guess what? The 12 apostles are the 12 foundations of the Church, with Christ being the chief cornerstone!

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph. 2:19-22)

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." (1 Peter 2:5,6)

The "house of Israel" is a "spiritual" one. It is only a matter of simple logic. If the 12 apostles rule and judge the 12 tribes of Israel, yet the 12 apostles are the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, which is the Church, then the 12 tribes is a spiritual embodiment of GOD'S PEOPLE. Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, holding up the ENTIRE TEMPLE STRUCTURE.

Jesus Christ is not split up into two cornerstones. He is ONE Cornerstone, holding up ONE Temple, not Israel's Literal Temple, and the Church's Spiritual Temple. No such thing exists in scripture!

This is further solidified in James chapter 1, where James identifies the church as the "twelve tribes scattered abroad".

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (James 1:1)

But in the next verse, he calls them "My brethren", and more proof yet that James is writing to the Church is in 5:14:

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." (James 5:14)

It is unequivocally clear that James understood the concept of spiritual Israel.

In fact, I will go so far to say the following....

...the 12 literal apostles replaced the 12 literal tribes of Israel, and these 12 tribes of Israel is where the Church began. The Church of God we see today IS the Israel of God built ON TOP of these 12 apostles. Paul identifies the Church as the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16.

 

[Lion King]

The Church has not replaced Israel as God's chosen people, but we are simply fellow citizens with Israel as the LORD's children.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22

 

[Lion King]

Originally Posted by godisreal36

and a curse is upon them that curses Israel.
​

Genesis 12:3 (KJV)
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Is this blessing tied directly with the nation of Israel, or Jesus Christ? I believe the latter..all the nations have been blessed through the seed of Abraham, that is, the Messiah.

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.” Acts 3:25-26

 

[Biblewriter]

Is this blessing tied directly with the nation of Israel, or Jesus Christ? I believe the latter..all the nations have been blessed through the seed of Abraham, that is, the Messiah.

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, &#8216;Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.&#8217; When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.&#8221; Acts 3:25-26

The last part of this promise unquestionably refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. But the first part refers to Abraham himself, and through him his natural offspring.

 

[Lion King]

The last part of this promise unquestionably refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. But the first part refers to Abraham himself, and through him his natural offspring.

Is it about ethnicity though? Are we not called to bless everyone, including our enemies?

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:43-45

 

[Biblewriter]

Is it about ethnicity though? Are we not called to bless everyone, including our enemies?

You have heard that it was said, &#8216;You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.&#8217; But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:43-45

This is completely correct, but has zero bearing on the subject at hand. Abraham was told, "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:" (genesis 12:3) The fact that we are to bless all has no bearing on what others do or do not do. So God has promised blessing for those who bless Abraham, and a curse for whoever curses him.

 

[Lion King]

This is completely correct, but has zero bearing on the subject at hand. Abraham was told, "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee:" (genesis 12:3) The fact that we are to bless all has no bearing on what others do or do not do. So God has promised blessing for those who bless Abraham, and a curse for whoever curses him.

So, will the LORD bless you if you bless Israel only, but do not do the same to Palestine?