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powerful pictures the LOrd placed upother then the specific images God commanded to be placed in the Temple, .
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powerful pictures the LOrd placed upother then the specific images God commanded to be placed in the Temple, .
Easy G (G²);59234635 said:Terms can be an issue, I think. For when one sees a painting one made of the Heavenlies or of the Messiah that done unto God's glory or prayed over for ministry--and someone appreciates it--it's essentially the same thing as adoring it. Memorial plaques (without pictures), pics of past rabbis/leaders in the hallway at the entrance and other things are all honored in one way or another..and that in/of itself is veneration.
Whenever pictures are placed up of what the Torah looks like, as has occurred here frequently over the years, one is involved in choosing to adore something....and yet the argument has been how the pictures help in thinking about what the scriptures make clear. To venerate something is about appreciation/reverence of it--and as long as there is the practice of kissing Torah scrolls occurring within Messianic Jewish synagouges or treating objects with reverence, I wonder if what occurs is condeming one thing (as others may see it worthy of condemnation) while doing the same thing in differing language/expression.
No one worships an image, but to appreciate it/hold it in reverence or consecration is another. And on the issue of venneration, people often forget that veneration was about honor--and bowing down was something even the people of God did when honoring others ( Genesis 18:1-3, Genesis 23:6-13 Genesis 33:2-4 Genesis 48:11-13 , Exodus 18:6-8 , Ruth 2:9-11 , 1 Samuel 20:40-42 1 Samuel 24:7-9 1 Samuel 25:22-24 , 2 Samuel 9:5-7 2 Samuel 18:27-29 2 Samuel 24:19-21 1 Kings 1:15-17 1 Kings 1:30-32 , etc). For those bowing down in remembrance of others who went before us, just as people bow their heads at a funeral or when seeing a picture of a departed love one out of respect. That's the basis behind icons when it comes to depictions of the saints.
If something glorious is bowed to in order to worship it apart from the Lord, that's another issue. John in Revelation had that temptation with the angel teaching him and was warned against it ( Revelation 19:1-15 )
Some say that there's a difference between a Torah scroll being kissed and an icon in an Orthodox Church since they see a Torah Scroll as a symbol of revelation while they view an icon as an image of something on heaven or earth that is to be venerated. In their view, to venerate a Torah scroll is to venerate the self-disclosure of God through ancient prophetic writing while to venerate an icon is to venerate an image..but it seems silly since veneration is occurring REGARDLESS with both sets---and the image is a artisitc portrayal of what ancient prophetic writing described.
As said elsewhere, with the ICon issue, I really wonder at times what is so difficult to understand with the concept. Within OT Israel, the objects used in tabernacle (and later Temple ) worship were prayed over/sanctified before the Lord and all of it spoke to the Work of the Lord. If studying how the objects within the tabernacle looked (which one can go here or here for more on that), it's really powerful. There was a reverence to things rather than acting as if it was common. Things like the Showbread or the Golden Candlestick, within the Holy Place which provided light, and many other instruments had a Divine Purpose ( Exodus 27, Exodus 30:27-29, Exodus 31:8-10 , Exodus 35:15-17 , Numbers 4 , etc ).
THis was the case with the imagery included in the tabernacle/temple as well...and the same concept is there with Icons. They prayed over pictures they make which are physical representations of what occurred within scripture...just as the images of the Cheribum and other aspects of the Heavenlies were prayed over and the physical element was able to bring others into the spiritual dynamic of seeing what God's throne in Heaven was truly like.Leviticus 8:10-12
Moses said to the assembly, This is what the LORD has commanded to be done. Then Moses brought Aaron and his sons forward and washed them with water. He put the tunic on Aaron, tied the sash around him, clothed him with the robe and put the ephod on him. He also fastened the ephod with a decorative waistband, which he tied around him. He placed the breastpiece on him and put the Urim and Thummim in the breastpiece. Then he placed the turban on Aarons head and set the gold plate, the sacred emblem, on the front of it, as the LORD commanded Moses.
10 Then Moses took the anointing oil and anointed the tabernacle and everything in it, and so consecrated them. He sprinkled some of the oil on the altar seven times, anointing the altar and all its utensils and the basin with its stand, to consecrate them. He poured some of the anointing oil on Aarons head and anointed him to consecrate him.
Numbers 7:1-3
[ Offerings at the Dedication of the Tabernacle ] When Moses finished setting up the tabernacle, he anointed and consecrated it and all its furnishings. He also anointed and consecrated the altar and all its utensils.
2 Chronicles 29:18
Then they went in to King Hezekiah and reported: We have purified the entire temple of the LORD, the altar of burnt offering with all its utensils, and the table for setting out the consecrated bread, with all its articles.
2 Chronicles 29:17-19
It has NEVER been an issue of bowing down in worship to anything apart from the Lord--for anyone truly wishing to listen (even if you disagree)--and for some good places to investigate, one can go here to the following:
As one man said best on the issue when discussing what terms mean within Orthodoxy:
- Earliest Christian Ikons - Ikon History
- Eusebius on Images in the Early Church Classical Christianity
There were other excellent articles on the subject from those people that I've greatly enjoyed when it comes to the endeavor of creating understanding. For more:Iconographic Theology
An iconographer is primarily concerned about evoking an experience within the observer. Though the icon must be theologically correct, the symbolic meaning of the icon is secondary to an individuals participation in either the event depicted or in the life of the saint. The strange reverse perspective of the icon, its non-static depiction of the saints in movement toward you or toward Christ, and its light depicted not from a particular location but from both inside and outside of the icon is all meant to include and involve you in the picture. An icon is not meant to be a descriptive snapshot of a particular event or person in Church history, rather an icon is a mysterious portal that makes you a subject in that scene or a friend to that saint.
The icon encapsulates Orthodox theology better than anything else about the Church, not because of its symbolism nor its traditional style, but because the icon expresses that Christianity is to be experienced (taste and see Psalm 33:9/34:8) more than understood. You can neither fully comprehend an icon, nor the Orthodox Church, from an intellectually objective distance but rather only as an intimate subjective partaker.
The icon within the Orthodox church, particularly within the liturgy, is not meant to be a pretty decoration adorning the sanctuary walls; an icon is not there to give you something attractive to look at if you get bored during the service. Nor, as some non-Orthodox believe, are the icons primarily there to remind the faithful of Biblical events or the lives of the saintswhich would be a rational epistemology. The icons are primarily painted to bring the viewer into fellowship with the Church Triumphant. The icons transform our experiencea phenomenological epistemologyfrom being on earth to being within the Kingdom of God. The icons do not just passively impart a sense of sanctity to the service; rather they actively transport us to the sacred realm that exists when one is fully, experientially, present with God and the saints (who are not dead but alive with ChristEphesians 2:4-7). The presence of the icons invites us to belong to a community that mystically transcends time and place. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:1-2).
Icons of the Saints
Orthodox churches have icons of Christ and the saints in front on the icon screen (iconostasis) and on the walls. The icons can be understood as Orthodoxys hall of fame. The Church remembers the saints all out commitment to Christ and holds them up as models for us to emulate and as inspiration for when we face tough times.
It is important to keep in mind that the Apostolic Tradition, while it has roots going back to the first century, developed over time taking on a more elaborated form from its simpler precedents. It is also important to keep in mind that we are talking about a grass roots devotional practice, not a theological system like Gnosticism which generates a significant paper trail. Still there are multiple sources that support the Orthodox understanding of the veneration the saints.
Philip Schaff in History of the Christian Church Vol. II §27 noted that the early catacombs contained inscriptions where the departed are asked to pray for their living relatives (p. 83). What is interesting is a letter from the Church of Smyrna dated AD 155:
Him indeed we adore (προσκυνουμεν as the Son of God; but the martyrs we love as they deserve (αγαπωμεν αξιως, for their surpassing love to their King and Master, as we wish also to be their companions and fellow-disciples (pp. 82-83).The distinction between the worship of Christ and the veneration of the saints is very much the same distinction Orthodox Christians use today. This shows the remarkable continuity of Orthodoxy with early Christianity. It can also be taken as evidence that the distinction between adoration and veneration was not concocted by the Seventh Ecumenical Council but has very early roots.
The Christian catacombs with religious images and symbols in Rome have been dated back to the late second century.
Apart from that, for some excellent books on the subject that I think would be worth considering:
Awesome picture to have
Captions weren't needed in that era just as it was with other pictures that were utilized in catacombs that Christians used since the designs tended to be similar to one another. Generally, pictures of Mary with Jesus would be depicted in a certain manner...as one didn't assume automatically that a picture with a woman holding a baby in the believer's areas meant that it was Hagar with Ishmael, Samon being held by his mother or other things.How do we know this is Mary with Jesus? Was there a caption?
Ezekiel 8:6-18
. 3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. 4 And there before me was the glory of the God of Israel, as in the vision I had seen in the plain.
5 Then he said to me, Son of man, look toward the north. So I looked, and in the entrance north of the gate of the altar I saw this idol of jealousy.
He asked me, "Human being, do you see what they are doing, the horribly disgusting practices that the house of Isra'el is committing here, so that I must distance myself from my own sanctuary? But you will see even worse abominations."
7 He brought me to the entrance of the courtyard; and when I looked, I saw a hole in the wall. 8 He said to me, "Human being, dig into the wall." After digging in the wall, I saw a door. 9 "Go in," he said, "and see the wicked practices they are engaged in here." 10 So I went in and looked, and there, carved on the walls all around, were every kind of reptile and repulsive animal, along with all the idols of the house of Isra'el. 11 Standing in front of them were seventy of the leading men of the house of Isra'el- in the center stood Ya'azanyahu the son of Shafan. Each man had his incense- burner in his hand, and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12 Then he said to me, "Human being, did you see what the leaders of the house of Isra'el are doing in the dark, each one in the room of his own carved image, because they say, 'ADONAI can't see us; ADONAI has left the land.'?" 13 He also said to me, "You will see even worse abominations that they are doing."
14 He brought me to the entrance of the north gate to ADONAI 's house; and there before me were women weeping for Tammuz. 15 "Human being," he asked me, "have you seen this? You will see practices even more disgusting than these." 16 He brought me into the inner courtyard of ADONAI' s house; and there, at the entrance to the temple of ADONAI, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty- five men with their backs toward the temple of ADONAI and their faces toward the east; and they were worshipping the sun toward the east. 17 He asked me, "Human being, have you seen this? Does the house of Y'hudah consider it a casual matter that they commit the disgusting practices they are committing here, thus filling the land with violence, provoking me still more? Look! They are even putting the branch to their nose! 18 Therefore I will act in fury, my eye will not spare, I will have no pity. Even if they cry loudly right in my ears, I will not listen to them."
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
If I can share..what about Ezekiel 8:6ff?
Makes you wonder on the issue of Bible stories made in movies/media--be it "The Passion" on the suffering of Christ or "The Nativity Story" in regards to the birth of Christ or other films dealing with Biblical history. Personally, although they can never have it fully accurate as to how things exactly were, I'm thankful for many of those films that have caused others to study on the life of the Messiah and seeing what the scriptures have to say.....and that is also said in light of the many children's church stories utilizing pictures to show the Messiah.Personally, I strongly object to any effort to depict the countenance of HaShem, or Yeshua, in any from or media. And most especially during worship or religious setting.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
Then Moses said to the Israelites, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. He has filled him with the Spirit of God—with skill, with understanding, with knowledge, and with all kinds of work, to design artistic designs, to work in gold, in silver, and in bronze, and in cutting stones for their setting, and in cutting wood, to do work in every artistic craft (Exod 35:30-33).
Trust me when I say that I feel you on where you're coming from. More was shared on that in #1, #39 and here.I understand that a/v media have become the "written word" of this century.
I admit I have watched some of the movies you mention. I also admit to a mild to moderate burn when the ethnicity of Yeshua, His disciples or His challengers is misrepresented or over exaggerated.
And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 5
I think what often happens is that people may not realize that ANYTHING in a service can become a point of idolatry and augumentation. Happens all the time in Messianic fellowships when there's a demand to only play Jewish music since (in the minds of many) that is the only kind of worship that they can see the Lord being pleased with....and responding to....and thus, they close themselves off from worship and end up worshipping a form of it rather than singing unto the Lord whenever they can and regardless of the musical style.*My* biggest concern and difficulty however is when graphic representations of HaShem or Yeshua are used during worship or to augment the religious experience or devotion. "Veneration" does not excuse, soften or validate ant of that in my understanding.
Both my DH and DS are very artistic, musically, graphically and with the written word.
So true....even though the Lord did give other graphic descriptions of Himself that are truly shocking. The train of His robe filling the temple still brings things to mind, as well as where Moses was said to have seen the foot of the LordIMO Art that glorifies G-d can be wonderful, just not that which depicts the countenance of G-d graphically. Even Moshe' did not get to see the face of G-d
Can see where you're coming from. Personally, for me, I think it's necessary to at least show the face of Yeshua since He said of Himself that those seeing Him saw the Lord ( John 14:8-10 , Colossians 1:14-16 ) and I don't see how anyone reading about the way Yeshua spoke to people can avoid imagining what he looked like when he either spoke or did things.I agree that art and depictions of many kinds can edify, beautify and glorify during worship and study.
All kinds of artistic depictions can do so, just not representations of the face of HaShem or Yeshua. To me this steps over the line of "maybe" into "definitely is" idolatry.
Easy G (G²) said:Can see where you're coming from. Personally, for me, I think it's necessary to at least show the face of Yeshua since He said of Himself that those seeing Him saw the Lord ( John 14:8-10 , Colossians 1:14-16 ) and I don't see how anyone reading about the way Yeshua spoke to people can avoid imagining what he looked like when he either spoke or did things.
I think the best bet is to go off of the things described in the cultures that the Lord dealt with when it came to images He condemned. As it was not said of Yeshua that making pictures of Him was considered to be idolatry, I'd not think it be a good idea to make a law where there is none....but in regards to showing God as a creature with wings, He never describes Himself as such and no one can comprehend that anyhow.and thus, for those I'd leave it be.
From that POV no depiction can be wrong and none accurate.
So then, is any art that makes a statement about G-d wrong?
If you have any art online that they've done, would love to check it outBoth my DH and DS are very artistic, musically, graphically and with the written word.
b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
kind of you to ask.. Neither have felt good enough in the graphic arts to present to the public, but DH has written and published several books, fiction a d non-fiction. You can find them hereEasy G (G²) said:If you have any art online that they've done, would love to check it out