I want to know more about Messianic Judaism

[Lulav]

Just wondering why this has turned into another Gentiles can't do torah thread?

We have a guest here people, and he has very kindly asked to understand Messianic Judaism. What are we showing him here? does he have to change this thread to a MJ only one? Aren't there enough threads on the forum going right now to bally this subject ad nauseum?

I for one am frankly sick of every thread I go into to find the same thing going on.

 

[xDenax]

Just wondering why this has turned into another Gentiles can't do torah thread?

If that is what you think is being said then you aren't actually paying attention to what Chava is trying to say.

 

[yedida]

I thought we were addressing it? Which Jewish traditions do you see as being necessary for the Messianic?

I don't see Jewish tradition as necessary. I just think that it makes sense. Some places the Torah is not explicit in exactly how to do things it says to do. We could come up with our own ideas, I guess, but when the sages of old have studied and prayed and discussed and prayed and come up with their ideas (which I'm sure came by way of Hashem) why throw out their wonderful insights?
We're trying to worship in a way that follows the way Yeshua would have walked. If He had come a few or several centuries, or even a millenial later those things that you're talking about would be things that He would have upheld, as he upheld the traditions of that time. In Matthew, remember, He said to do what the Torah teachers instructed. That's why we take on some of the later traditions - He told us to, by stating to follow the teachers of the day.
As far as I can tell, most Messianic Synagogues are run by Messianic Jewish Rabbis, and I'm sure they feel the same way. Just because it's 2012 does not negate Yeshua's command to do as the Torah teachers tell us to do. You know that the Yeshua movement in the beginning was simply another sect of Judaism. It was never intended to be anything but what it was then.

 

[yedida]

Just wondering why this has turned into another Gentiles can't do torah thread?

We have a guest here people, and he has very kindly asked to understand Messianic Judaism. What are we showing him here? does he have to change this thread to a MJ only one? Aren't there enough threads on the forum going right now to bally this subject ad nauseum?

I for one am frankly sick of every thread I go into to find the same thing going on.

I certainly second that motion. It's got me so stressed that I've gotten sick again, thought I was over this mess. Guess not! Stress ain't any fun!!

 

[ChavaK]

First, you've called Chava "he/him" twice (I believe), if she won't correct you, I will.

I didn't even notice, LOL.

Our Chava is very much a lady.

Some would disagree

The shul where I'm returning actually does not do Hamotzi as we don't meet on Fri evenings.

Do you only do it on shabbas? Not all the time before eating bread?

 

[ChavaK]

Just wondering why this has turned into another Gentiles can't do torah thread?

Not by me.....that is not at all what I am saying. I can't speak for anyone else.

 

[anisavta]

Just wondering why this has turned into another Gentiles can't do torah thread?

We have a guest here people, and he has very kindly asked to understand Messianic Judaism. What are we showing him here? does he have to change this thread to a MJ only one? Aren't there enough threads on the forum going right now to bally this subject ad nauseum?

I for one am frankly sick of every thread I go into to find the same thing going on.

I'll have to agree that we have several threads that are addressing this issue. This thread should not be one of those. Sad to say maybe it should have been addressed just to MJs.
Yedida, you know everyone is not going to support you, especially those who just can't grasp the depth of it all - that we have a G~d who sees the bigger picture and wants all His people Jew and Gentile to be lead by His Torah - His instruction. But there are those of us out there who want you to go in the direction you feel HaShem is leading you and support you in your walk. Refuah shleimah.

 

[yedida]

I didn't even notice, LOL.


Some would disagree


Do you only do it on shabbas? Not all the time before eating bread?

I do, privately at home on Friday evenings before the Shabbas meal. I do it as best I know how but no one has shown me, I've only been able to read of the traditions. And throughout the week, again, just my own muddling through. I haven't had a teacher.
As far as at shul we don't do anything like that on Saturday morning, just a blessing before we share oneg.
I need a very big learning curve! But I am serious about learning it all and why it is the way it is, all of that history. With every thing I learn it never cease to amaze me why so many of the folks who believe in Jesus don't even want to learn about that aspect of Him. If His timing had been a birth in the 80s He'd be doing everything that you do, Chava. And he'd have told His people to do all that the Torah teachers told them to do

 

[Bradley S]

Messianic Judaism is the default home for those who otherwise understand the Scriptures to mean that Torah is for the Gentiles too, hence a "One New Man" where Jews and Gentiles worship haShem together. Admittedly, the "Jew" in 'Messianic Jew' is sorta misleading (my own opinion) because we are not Jews according to how contemporary society interprets the term Jew (I agree with Chavak). Even in the way Messianic Jews keep Torah, it is not the same way Orthodox Jews or Hasidim keep Torah. Plus, the most obvious is that the Jewish Community does not accept it as a Jewish movement- to them Messianic Jew automatically means "Christian". However, the term "Christian" has a negative term for many Messianic Jews because the term "Christian" implies one who's adopted many beliefs which are foreign to the Bible (i.e. Christmas, Easter, pork-eating, etc.). Then again, there is a gentleman on this post who hit it right on the head, some MJs keep Christmas and are just trying to evangelize the Jew, while other MJs actually want to keep the commandments in fulfillment of the Scriptures. At any rate, all MJs believe that Yeshua of Nazareth was the Messiah promised according to the Keetvay haKodesh (Set Apart Scriptures). Hope this helps!

 

[Chaplain David]

Welcome to the forum!

First thing to understand is that we are are neither a denomination nor a branch of Christianity. Messianic Judaism (which includes both Jews and Gentiles) stands in the gap between Judaism and Christianity and relates each to the other through our life, worship and witness.

Do you have a particular aspect you wish to ask about - it would take a very long post to cover everything? You could go to the sticky at the head of this forum that shows book, journals and websites about Messianic Judaism - that would be a good place for starters, apart from direct questions on here.

You may not, of course, debate or teach on here as you are not Messianic, yourself.

I think I would like to become familiar with Messianic Judaism as defined or accepted by CF to start with. I am a Baptist minister but I am not a pastor. I am a chaplain who is trained in pastoral counseling and ministering to others. So theology is not my strongest point although I know how to research things I am not familiar with or do not understand. I won't ask a lot of questions yet but am marking certain posts with questions and hyperlinks on another page so I can come back to them. Thank you. Back to reading.

 

[Chaplain David]

A site that provides good mainstream answers and scripture backup for Christian questions is gotquestions.org Obviously they can't have everything. This is what comes up when I look up Messianic Judaism. Is this something that all or most can agree with? If not what is the major thing or things that needs to be added to make this definition correct. I'm using the forum SOP for guidance as well. I already know one aspect that has been left out. But it's not their fault. They are mainstream.

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Question: "What is Messianic Judaism?"

Answer: Messianic Judaism is the term given to Jewish people who believe and have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. These Jewish people do not stop being Jewish, but they continue to remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.

In reality, Messianic Judaism began 2,000 years ago. Yeshua Himself was an observant Jew, most of the Apostles and writers of the New Covenant were Jewish, and the vast majority of the early believers in Yeshua were also Jewish (see Acts chapter 2).

Traditional rabbinical Judaism today does not believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. Observant Jews are still waiting faithfully in accordance with the Rambam’s (Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1134-1204) “Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith,” which states in Principle 12, “I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. However long it takes, I will await His coming every day.” Most secular Jews do not believe in the physical coming of a personal Messiah, but some still look forward to a general Messianic concept or Messianic Age.

Today, it is estimated that there are over 350,000 Messianic Jews in the world, and the numbers are growing all the time. Messianic synagogues have also become very popular, and recent estimates number more than 200 congregations in this country. There are also many Messianic congregations in Israel and around the world.

Messianic Jews continue to celebrate the Jewish festivals and feast days as prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e., Passover, Day of Atonement, etc.) but they do it in a way that demonstrates how Yeshua has already fulfilled these Holy Days. Most Messianic Jews do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, since neither holiday is mentioned in the New Covenant. Jews who now follow Yeshua the Messiah understand that everything given in the Old Covenant was a “mere shadow” of the better things to come in the New.

What is Messianic Judaism?

 

[ChavaK]

I already know one aspect that has been left out. But it's not their fault. They are mainstream.

The one big thing they neglected to mention is the Gentiles that are involved in the Messianic faith. Is this what you mean by "one aspect that has been left out"?

Would be interested to know where they get their statistics of 350,000 Jews being Messianic. Seems awfully high, and how could they track this?
It would seem the number would be accurate for Messianics in general, both Jews and Gentiles....but still it would be difficult I would think to come up with a precise number. Just as it would be for many other groups, Jews included.

​

 

[Yahudim]

Really? No, you may not presume any such thing. Why would you?
It is not a presumption I would ever make. I was only providing links to multiple sites so as to provide a broader representation of Congregations that call themselves "Messianic Jewish Congregations" today. This bothers you in what way that you ask of my personal Torah observance?

Does this one suit you better?
Messianic Judaism -Follow Torah and Yeshua?Messianic Judaism beliefs and Torah

Or this one:
Messianic Jewish - Frequently Asked Questions

As I said before, there are Messianics in many styles, colors, shapes and sizes.
(I would say flavors, but that may be a bit creepy for some...)

Sorry Brother, I just read the sites at the end of the links you posted and it made me wonder. No offence intended.

I think that contemporary Messianic Judaism is not accurately represented by the usually 'grace only', Christian founded, well funded and so-called 'governing bodies' that are found online. When I poll individual Messianics, the majority of their doctrinal positions don't square with the SoFs that I read at these websites, that's all.

To my way of thinking, when a Rabbinic Jew abandons Torah obedience for the 'grace only' doctrines of Christianity, they become Christians of Jewish origin, NOT an adherent to Messianic Judaism.

 

[Chaplain David]

The one big thing they neglected to mention is the Gentiles that are involved in the Messianic faith. Is this what you mean by "one aspect that has been left out"?

Would be interested to know where they get their statistics of 350,000 Jews being Messianic. Seems awfully high, and how could they track this?
It would seem the number would be accurate for Messianics in general, both Jews and Gentiles....but still it would be difficult I would think to come up with a precise number. Just as it would be for many other groups, Jews included.

​

Sorry Brother, I just read the sites at the end of the links you posted and it made me wonder. No offence intended.

I think that contemporary Messianic Judaism is not accurately represented by the usually 'grace only', Christian founded, well funded and so-called 'governing bodies' that are found online. When I poll individual Messianics, the majority of their doctrinal positions don't square with the SoFs that I read at these websites, that's all.

To my way of thinking, when a Rabbinic Jew abandons Torah obedience for the 'grace only' doctrines of Christianity, they become Christians of Jewish origin, NOT an adherent to Messianic Judaism.

Yes, I noticed the absence of "Gentiles" and that was indeed what I was referring to based on my slowing growing but infant knowledge of MJ.

As far as the SOP's, as staff or even members, that is the forum framework we are asked to embrace although certainly, they will not fit everyone.

I don's know what to say about the "grace only" doctrines and how they relate to either the SOP's or the diverse group of MJ's as a whole. But I bet I'll learn. As I said, it's a good mainstream site but with the highest of respect as your brother in Christ I can say godquestions.org is a mainstream site and encompasses mainstream issues and interpretation. MJ is not mainstream but it is important. I am keeping track of the links you provide and am reading them as I can.

Thanks very much and God bless you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A site that provides good mainstream answers and scripture backup for Christian questions is gotquestions.org Obviously they can't have everything. This is what comes up when I look up Messianic Judaism. Is this something that all or most can agree with? If not what is the major thing or things that needs to be added to make this definition correct. I'm using the forum SOP for guidance as well. I already know one aspect that has been left out. But it's not their fault. They are mainstream.

----------------------------​

Question: "What is Messianic Judaism?"

Answer: Messianic Judaism is the term given to Jewish people who believe and have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. These Jewish people do not stop being Jewish, but they continue to remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.

In reality, Messianic Judaism began 2,000 years ago. Yeshua Himself was an observant Jew, most of the Apostles and writers of the New Covenant were Jewish, and the vast majority of the early believers in Yeshua were also Jewish (see Acts chapter 2).

Traditional rabbinical Judaism today does not believe that Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah. Observant Jews are still waiting faithfully in accordance with the Rambam’s (Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 1134-1204) “Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith,” which states in Principle 12, “I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. However long it takes, I will await His coming every day.” Most secular Jews do not believe in the physical coming of a personal Messiah, but some still look forward to a general Messianic concept or Messianic Age.

Today, it is estimated that there are over 350,000 Messianic Jews in the world, and the numbers are growing all the time. Messianic synagogues have also become very popular, and recent estimates number more than 200 congregations in this country. There are also many Messianic congregations in Israel and around the world.

Messianic Jews continue to celebrate the Jewish festivals and feast days as prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e., Passover, Day of Atonement, etc.) but they do it in a way that demonstrates how Yeshua has already fulfilled these Holy Days. Most Messianic Jews do not celebrate Christmas or Easter, since neither holiday is mentioned in the New Covenant. Jews who now follow Yeshua the Messiah understand that everything given in the Old Covenant was a “mere shadow” of the better things to come in the New.

What is Messianic Judaism?

Not certain if they addressed the issue of Replacement Theology/Israel....as that's a very big concern within the MJish movement when it comes to the Church not being considered as the replacement for Israel.

 

[Yahudim]

Hello everyone, thank you for posting in this thread. I am sure I will learn a lot and have questions. I have been having some problems lately with migraines and today was a bad day. But I will be back as soon as I have the concentration and lucidity to really take in what you've written. God bless you all.

Faithfully,

Sorry about the migraines. Will be praying.

 

[Chaplain David]

I've spent a good part of my day reading. I've been reading about the Sabbath, Yom Kippur, the Torah, sitting Shiva, and some of the posts. I pray that everyone is well.

God bless you.

 

[Henaynei]

I've spent a good part of my day reading. I've been reading about the Sabbath, Yom Kippur, the Torah, sitting Shiva, and some of the posts. I pray that everyone is well.

God bless you.

LOL - That's enough to give *anyone* a headache!
Glad you're back, hope your health has returned!

 

[Tishri1]

Praying for those migraines David

Hello everyone, thank you for posting in this thread. I am sure I will learn a lot and have questions. I have been having some problems lately with migraines and today was a bad day. But I will be back as soon as I have the concentration and lucidity to really take in what you've written. God bless you all.

Faithfully,

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Brother Sacerdote,

Before sharing anything in-depth, I was writing due to how I was curious as to what exactly you have done in terms of research when it comes to studies on what MJism is about? What specific sources did you come across and what are your reasons for wishing to know more, if I may ask? Do you have friends and families who are involved in MJish circles---or do you plan on attending a MJish circle yourself? Or is it simply for curiosity's sake? Either way, I'd love to find out since knowing where someone has come from/how they developed into their current understanding can help in interacting.

There are other threads which have some in-depth discussion, as well as sticky threads with references given on top of the forum...should you like more information. If interested, I'll try to give a comprehensive list of all of the main organizations in the MJish camp. For now, some places you can go in the immediate are threads like Some links to Messianic Judaism organizations..or here /here ( #47 ). Others that may help:

• What it's all about....we hope.
• Does God yet have a plan through the Law?
• Are you part of Mainstream Messianic Judaism?
• Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
• For all the curious.. who wish to ask Messianic Judaism believers a question..
• Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

One of the main moderators of the forum, known as Tishri, is another excellent source of information for overview. She has recently been spearheading an attempt in clarifying the differing groups within MJism that are seen here---and it's because of her efforts that we have the forum set up where there are differing forums to represent others from specific streams of thought, even though we all come together in the main forum to party/try to have a good time in Messiah


There are many differing views, though the original viewpoint with MJism in the 60s/70s was that MJism itself is a subset of Christianity and spread out from there---with many seeing MJism as a form of Jewish Christianity (which in/of itself was a sub-set/sect of Judaism)..the ORIGINAL form practiced by the early church. Those within MJism love Torah, studying the Law and seeing the beauty in how it can apply for believers today...although the movement was originally begun in order to do outreach to the Jewish people who felt that much of the Church neglected its Jewish roots. There is a recognition of how Yeshua was Jewish, as were his disciples...and although we've been justified by the blood of Christ and God's grace, the Law still has application in the realm of teaching/instruction. Many Gentiles have also come into the movement in a desire to reach out to Jews (aka Ruth )---with the understanding within those Messianic congregations that Gentiles are not less acceptable before the Lord for not being Jewish/Hebrew and that it's a blessing to be a Gentile working alongside Jew, showing what it means to be "Jew and Gentile" united for Messiah...and redeemed by His Blood and sacrifice.



Of course, there are Gentiles who've also come into the movement in the mindset that Gentiles are meant to live as the Jews in all areas...something which has actually turned many Jews off. There are also those who may be Jewish and have sought in the name of "MJism" to essentially turn Gentiles into Jewish converts. Many within the MJish movement have noted this to be a form of counter-missionary work and what Paul condemned in the Book of Galatians when it came to ignoring the Grace of God whenever law came up. Additionally, due to the ways that the term "grace" has been abused by many within the Church to mean a liscence to sin, many tend to have a reactionary mindset in assuming all people who speak of God's grace believe that they don't value the Torah. This issue has been frequently addressed/clarified by the major MJish organizations and founders of the movement for decades when it comes to demonstrating how Grace/Torah are not counter to one another and are meant to work in Harmony. However, sadly, much contention tends to continue. If reading through the threads here on this forum, one may come across that dynamic rather quickly.

Many believers within the MJish camp have come/gone over the years---some who tend to come in/out when they have time and others who are here for seasons. Thus, while many things shared on this board are a reflection of some of the worlds existing within MJism, it is not always fully accurate as to showing what the history of the MJish movement has been over the years....and with that said, if I may say, I'd encourage you to continue in your own research and interactions with others. There is a good deal of diversity within the movement---truly a Mosaic in many ways-----and there are some more concerned with the way the movement began and others being the offshoots of the newer camps that've started up with the ideology of having Gentiles live as Jews fully...the most extreme DENOUNCING all aspects of Christianity as "worldy" or "Gentile" and only adhering to Judaism, even though much of Judaism sees the extreme camps as Gentiles trying to be what they were never meant to be. But again, the mainstream voices of MJism (i.e MJAA, IJMA, UMJC, etc) have often spoken on such matters. Hoping that this has been helpful...

by no accident Messianic congregations are located in the same community as our brethren in the flesh because we are part of the Jewish community.