Missionary Work in NY

[mishkan]

Ah, thank you for that Ani. I never knew. Some big sisters care enough to share!! I'll pass this on when I get back to my old shul, but in the 30 months that I've been gone, they could have learned this!! (And I might have offended someone if you hadn't told me.) In fact, I'd seen many there that did use the Bible, Siddur and in a previous post I did mention the tzitziot, but aside from the tzitziot I'd always wondered why they used the books. Cool, now I know. (I never questioned the tzitziot simply because I thought it was a very nice gesture.)

Yep, this is standard stuff for those brought up in the shul. That's why I make it my own personal mission to learn and pass on information like this. Some would prefer not to take the time to teach these sorts of things. It is easier just to tell Gentiles to sit in the back of the room.

<ahem!>

 

[yedida]

Yep, this is standard stuff for those brought up in the shul. That's why I make it my own personal mission to learn and pass on information like this. Some would prefer not to take the time to teach these sorts of things. It is easier just to tell Gentiles to sit in the back of the room.

<ahem!>

You're a good man, Charlie Brown!!
Yes, send them to the back and never teach them what's appropriate. But definitely scream loud about how we mistreat Judaica (but never mention that it's out of ignorance that never got corrected by those who know).
But then again, it could be (I'm not saying it is, I just like to look at more than one side) that it is after all just the covering, it's not the scroll proper. I don't know, but I'll look into it when I get back. That's one thing I like about this place, no one is so ignorant that they don't have anything to offer. No one is so lowly that they don't have a story worth really listening to. Golden nuggets are found in the most unlikely, unexpected places if you keep your options open.

 

[Henaynei]

If I said all the whites in the congregation can have a full meal, but all the blacks in a congregation can only have a bite... am I treating blacks as a second class, do they simply just have a different role here? Being within a community the males unless in leadership should share a common role together, the same with women, etc. No one should be treated as less... The Torah teaches there is to be One Law for the native and the stranger, and that the stranger is to be regarded as a native... as if he is a native, not a secondary.

Thank you for support of some of my points, though it is manifest that we are using different dictionaries in several places.

Your rejoinder above is a straw man. Black vs white has no relationship at all. This is NOT a racial issue. Judaism is not a race! It is a system of belief and behavior based on Torah.
Torah what is the minimum that a non-Jew must do to be able to reside beside the Holy nation.

Just like the "Gentiles which believe" they are not expected or required to become Jews, to keep all that is required of Jews, but there is a minimum. It is laid out in Torah and in Acts 15 & 21.

No one but Jews who keep the purity laws should handle the Sefer Torah or handle various other Jewish sancta. No one who does not take on the Mantle of Torah, written and oral, should wear the mantle of a talit with tzitzit - for the tzitzit is expressly to remind one to obey Torah.

This is not about such a mundane earthly issue as who sits where!
It is about obeying G-d who made Gentiles and Jews different in their obligations to Him. True, there is some slight overlapping of obligations, but the ceremonial Laws belong to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

Those of us who insist that they must be accorded full ceremonial status in a Messianic Jewish community need to go ahead and do what ever it takes to find a legitimate Messianic JEWISH bet din and submit themselves to their course of screening, and if cleared, then to their course of learning and living so that they can convert to Messianic Judaism. Those not called, or not able - such as I, need to accept their place and rejoice that G-d has chosen us to come along side the Jews as Gentiles to serve and protect them, but never, never, never insist on being treat as Jewish in a Jewish community.

 

[yedida]

Thank you for support of some of my points, though it is manifest that we are using different dictionaries in several places.

Your rejoinder above is a straw man. Black vs white has no relationship at all. This is NOT a racial issue. Judaism is not a race! It is a system of belief and behavior based on Torah.
Torah what is the minimum that a non-Jew must do to be able to reside beside the Holy nation.

Just like the "Gentiles which believe" they are not expected or required to become Jews, to keep all that is required of Jews, but there is a minimum. It is laid out in Torah and in Acts 15 & 21.

No one but Jews who keep the purity laws should handle the Sefer Torah or handle various other Jewish sancta. No one who does not take on the Mantle of Torah, written and oral, should wear the mantle of a talit with tzitzit - for the tzitzit is expressly to remind one to obey Torah.

This is not about such a mundane earthly issue as who sits where!
It is about obeying G-d who made Gentiles and Jews different in their obligations to Him. True, there is some slight overlapping of obligations, but the ceremonial Laws belong to the Jews, not the Gentiles.

Those of us who insist that they must be accorded full ceremonial status in a Messianic Jewish community need to go ahead and do what ever it takes to find a legitimate Messianic JEWISH bet din and submit themselves to their course of screening, and if cleared, then to their course of learning and living so that they can convert to Messianic Judaism. Those not called, or not able - such as I, need to accept their place and rejoice that G-d has chosen us to come along side the Jews as Gentiles to serve and protect them, but never, never, never insist on being treat as Jewish in a Jewish community.

...

 

[visionary]

It should not be a surprise that I see the Jewish people who are coming to believe on Jesus as the prodigal child with the Gentiles knowing about Jesus for the past 2000 years and therefore becomes the elder, while the Jewish people have been on the proverbial pig sty rejecting Yeshua.

Sorry... but they may have reject His Son in the flesh, but they have always been with the Father at home..

 

[etZion]

Thank you for support of some of my points, though it is manifest that we are using different dictionaries in several places.

Exactly, we are using different dictionaries, so the results and conclusions will continue to be different. We just have to continue doing what we do best, all doing what we believe to be true.

 

[Henaynei]

Most Messianic Jews have no problem using the name Jesus. The resistance to using Jesus actually comes out of a Gentile group called Sacred Name.

<staff edit-quote removed>

<staff edit> It was actually the Jewish youth at MJAA Annual Conference in 1975 @ Messiah College in Grantham PA who started using Yeshua and urging their elders to do so. It was the same youth who reached outside the box of Christianity and for the first time in nearly 60 years said that being fully and observantly Jewish was still incumbent on Jewish followers of Messiah and challenged the adults to seriously consider this. To their credit their elders listened and contemporary MJism was born out of the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America. And Messianic Jews have called Messiah by His given Hebrew Name ever since.

 

[Henaynei]

I am not sure what you mean by accommodate?
Do you then believe that gentile congregations do not need to adjust to accommodate Jewish members?

By accommodate I mean forsaking the halakah of the Ancient Elders of wisdom and honor because the Gentiles say it makes them like "second class citizens." No one can make you feel like a "second class citizen," to feel such is a choice one makes for themselves. Many Gentiles in this movement, in Torah observant congregations, understand and accept their limitations in such a congregation, accept that the leadership is and should be Jewish and Never feel that they themselves are "second class citizens."

 

[visionary]

By accommodate I mean forsaking the halakah of the Ancient Elders of wisdom and honor because the Gentiles say it makes them like "second class citizens." No one can make you feel like a "second class citizen," to feel such is a choice one makes for themselves. Many Gentiles in this movement, in Torah observant congregations, understand and accept their limitations in such a congregation, accept that the leadership is and should be Jewish and Never feel that they themselves are "second class citizens."

Where it gets rough is when the Sabbath is not for the Gentiles, not even those who wish to be Torah observant. It is when the Torah observant are told that they are limited to Noahide laws.

 

[yedida]

By accommodate I mean forsaking the halakah of the Ancient Elders of wisdom and honor because the Gentiles say it makes them like "second class citizens." No one can make you feel like a "second class citizen," to feel such is a choice one makes for themselves. Many Gentiles in this movement, in Torah observant congregations, understand and accept their limitations in such a congregation, accept that the leadership is and should be Jewish and Never feel that they themselves are "second class citizens."

That's what you say.

 

[Henaynei]

I am not pushing you away. I have repeatedly said that you are seeking something which is not Messianic Judaism.

You tell me you are as close to Shomer Shabbat as you can get, but I don't really care as that is not Messianic Judaism. And when I try to explain, you get angry and say you don't like what I say and don't have to listen to me. You are right. Every person must choose their own teachers, hopefully wisely. But, if you don't want to learn from me, because you don't like what I teach, you can not turn around and say I am pushing you away. In reality, you are walking away and then complaining that I wasn't what you wanted or expected.

Messianic Judaism is not about being shomer Shabbat. I have tried pointing you to groups who believe closer to what you want, but you for some reason want to be a part of a group you disagree with.

As you are now, with sharing the gospel with the Jewish community as the number one goal, you are more of a detriment as you actually work against the main goal. That doesn't mean you are not a brother or sister, but I am asking for more awareness of the group you want to be part of. It really isn't about the Mosaic law. For example, you can't demand Gentile rights to wear tzitzit when the Jewish people do not think Gentiles are supposed to wear tzitzit and when our goal is to talk with Jewish people about Yeshua.

You might think you must wear tzitzit but the way I read scripture, it was never a command for Gentiles in the Mosaic law or the New Covenant.

Omyen

 

[yedida]

So basically what they are doing now to those of us who would be TO gentiles is the exact same thing in reverse when the christians told the Jews that they had to give up their jewishness to be christians. Good grief!! A never-ending circle, cycle of error!

 

[Henaynei]

My definitions - admittedly imperfect...

Christianity - followers of Jesus - who serve, worship and view Him within the Gentile/Greek/Romanized Hellenistic, aka mostly Western and European paradigm; and keeping the distinctly Christian feasts, festivals and memorials

Messianic Judaism - followers of Yeshua who serve, worship and view Him within His Native Jewish culture and paradigm; and keeping the distinctly Torah feasts, festivals and memorials

 

[someguy14]

Stand up and let your light shine. Gods Word(love) is desired by all. Some just aren't aware of it yet.

 

[xDenax]

But I won't have to constantly defend and explain where I'm at - a place so far removed from christianity that if it weren't for Yeshua, I'd convert to Judaism.

I think you'll have to explain yourself just as much if not more. Do you plan to tell people you are a Jew? Are you going to refer to yourself as Jew when speaking to Non-Messianic Jews?

 

[yedida]

...

 

[xDenax]

Nope. But I'll have an identity.
Like I said, this all got started back when I was a non-entity for about 6 months. It all had to do with the fact that I was never legally adopted by my parents so birth certificate and name usage problems - so for a while I wasn't who I'd been from 9months old and I wasn't who I was for the first 9months of my life, I was literally a nobody!! I decided then that I was going to do the Messianic conversion, just for me.

I'm failing to see what a conversion to Messianism has to do with your adoption and such? How are the two connected?

I guess, as an after-thought, Dena, you didn't really read my post. You saw something and ran with it, but you didn't see all of it.

I read all of it. Twice. Why do you think I did not?

 

[yedida]

I'm failing to see what a conversion to Messianism has to do with your adoption and such? How are the two connected?



I read all of it. Twice. Why do you think I did not?

,,

 

[xDenax]

Because I made it a point to say that I wouldn't be calling myself a Messianic Jew, I am now and will be just a Messianic.
Until you have no identity, I couldn't expect you or anyone to understand. It only had to do with my adoption because the name I've always used was one thing and the name on my birth certificate was something else. Never a major problem before 9/11 (just an inconvenience). And I can't really explain it except to say it opened up my options (after it was all over with anyway).

I'm sorry, to me it just sounded like you weren't going to shout it from the rooftop. If you aren't going to call yourself a Jew then what is the conversion?

And no, I don't understand what it's like to be adopted. I do however know about conversion.

 

[yedida]

I'm sorry, to me it just sounded like you weren't going to shout it from the rooftop. If you aren't going to call yourself a Jew then what is the conversion?

And no, I don't understand what it's like to be adopted. I do however know about conversion.

,