Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It is possible to put one's head down and not be worshipping the Pope, that's true, but when one does it before the Pope or a statue of someone dead or engages in various other acts of worship, it is fair to ask if this is a practice that should be engaged in. Most of your pictures had nothing to do with prayer or religion or anything of the sort, so they are not easily confused with worship.

I do not see such bowing as worship but part of worship, it is an act of humility and submission.

It is our custom to bow to the Altar in our Churches before entering the Chancel, and before leaving the Chancel. The Altar, while not holy in and of itself, symbolically represents Christ and as such provides a point of focus for our worship. We are bowing to the King of Heaven.

Likewise, when we approach the Altar for the Eucharist, we bow to the Pastor, and he bows to us in greeting before we kneel. We kneel our of respect and humility in the presence of Christ's very body and blood, given and shed for us.

Also, some of us retain the practice of either bowing or kneeling during the confession of the Nicene creed at the humiliation, and rising again at the exhalation; out of respect for Christ's undeserved suffering and death for us.

When people bow to their Pope, Bishop, Pastor, it is showing respect and submission to their authority as spiritual leaders; it is not worshipping them, but worshipping Christ.

 

[Albion]

I do not see such bowing as worship but part of worship, it is an act of humility and submission.

"Part of worship" verifies my point quite well. The question then is "Should we be engaged in ANY worship or acts of worship when they're directed towards deceased humans or angels rather than to God? I'd say "no." If someone wants to put up a picture of a politician bowing before a head of state, that doesn't prove anything because, obviously, it's only an act of respect. But with acts that you freely admit are part of worshipping, that's a different matter, expecially when coupled, as is often the case, with lighting candles, saying prayers, etc.--all directed towards that personage who is not God.

 

[mantelofaprophet]

Jesus talked about the Pharisees and how they loved their long robes and places of honor, I would say any and all sects and denominations and factions that incorporate long decorated robes for its people in authority to be a huge red flag, of recreating what Jesus spoke against, any man who puts on a robe and stands before people, Is a man who wants to show his authority, just as a judge wears a robe in a courtroom

This is blatantly against being a disciple and follower of Christ......the whole washing feet episode was to teach that the highest position put you at the lowest position serving man, I think only Mother Terresa out of the whole Catholic faith picked up on this important teaching

 

[Albion]

Jesus talked about the Pharisees and how they loved their long robes and places of honor, I would say any and all sects and denominations and factions that incorporate long decorated robes for its people in authority to be a huge red flag, of recreating what Jesus spoke against, any man who puts on a robe and stands before people, Is a man who wants to show his authority, just as a judge wears a robe in a courtroom

This is blatantly against being a disciple and follower of Christ......the whole washing feet episode was to teach that the highest position put you at the lowest position serving man, I think only Mother Terresa out of the whole Catholic faith picked up on this important teaching

She wore a distinctive habit that, I believe, she herself designed for her religious order of sisters. And she appeared before the United Nations assembly as well as other, similar organizations. ????

 

[athenken]

Jesus talked about the Pharisees and how they loved their long robes and places of honor, I would say any and all sects and denominations and factions that incorporate long decorated robes for its people in authority to be a huge red flag, of recreating what Jesus spoke against, any man who puts on a robe and stands before people, Is a man who wants to show his authority, just as a judge wears a robe in a courtroom

This is blatantly against being a disciple and follower of Christ......the whole washing feet episode was to teach that the highest position put you at the lowest position serving man, I think only Mother Terresa out of the whole Catholic faith picked up on this important teaching

Very good point.

This is one major reason why I don't think there will much "coming together" between the RCC and Protestant denominations. Especially those denominations where the pastors exemplify the servant-leader persona.

 

[Albion]

Very good point.

This is one major reason why I don't think there will much "coming together" between the RCC and Protestant denominations. Especially those denominations where the pastors exemplify the servant-leader persona.

FWIW, I can't quite buy this analysis of the servant pastor who doesn't wear any vestments because he doesn't want to put on any false pride, etc.

Not when these are the folks who want to be called "Apostle," "Prophet" or "Doctor," wear $600 suits during worship services, and are treated to special--but well-publicized--testimonial dinners for themselves and the "First Lady" every couple of months. None of the mainline churches engages in that kind of promotion, even if their clergy do wear a gown on Sunday morning.

 

[athenken]

FWIW, I can't quite buy this analysis of the servant pastor who doesn't wear any vestments because he doesn't want to put on any false pride, etc.

Not when these are the folks who want to be called "Apostle," "Prophet" or "Doctor," wear $600 suits during worship services, and are treated to special--but well-publicized--testimonial dinners for themselves and the "First Lady" every couple of months. None of the mainline churches engages in that kind of promotion, even if their clergy do wear a gown on Sunday morning.

I was not making a blanket statement of all pastors of all Protestant denominations. I agree there are those, such as the televangelists and the like (including pastors of the mega-churches), that do not exemplify the servant-leader role. However, there are plenty pastors in the smaller churches that do.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well, we might ask you why reformed Christians of today are supposed to take the blame for Henry VIII's personal affairs (or Luther or Calvin, etc.), yet that's a favorite theme of yours on these forums.

Um, if you're looking for a root cause, you would naturally look to them. The root cause of the Crusades was the invasion of Christian lands by Muslims. The root cause for the Spanish Inquisition (which was secularly instituted) was that people professed one way of life, then tried to subvert it. Regarding the Inqusition, I'd like to know exactly what is wrong with establishing a court system?

 

[mantelofaprophet]

FWIW, I can't quite buy this analysis of the servant pastor who doesn't wear any vestments because he doesn't want to put on any false pride, etc.

Not when these are the folks who want to be called "Apostle," "Prophet" or "Doctor," wear $600 suits during worship services, and are treated to special--but well-publicized--testimonial dinners for themselves and the "First Lady" every couple of months. None of the mainline churches engages in that kind of promotion, even if their clergy do wear a gown on Sunday morning.

This is true on both sides of the table, whether its Armani suits or rich scarlet and crimson robes. A true Spirit filled follower of Christ would have no need or want for either

 

[Root of Jesse]

Long live Emperor Constantine!

I was processed thru customs back into America by an American Indian who was in a U.S. Customs uniform awhile back. I asked him if he was sensing the irony, & he smiled & said, "Every day."

Others including agents of the Pope (Columbus) DID go there even before the Pilgrim Prots. It was a contest of motivations, as it remains.

Rewriting history? Columbus came at the behest of Spain.

We are all prisoners of history & history is prisoner of the truth, in God's view.
Well, there is some truth to the saying that "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time."

As if that's important in some way?

 

[Root of Jesse]

But you have done exactly that on many other threads. I did say "forums" when making my point, if you notice.



How can you live with the memory of the Spanish Inquisition?

I'd really love to hear your version of the Spanish Inquisiton. Amantiado, anyone? How many millions would you say the Spanish Inqusition killed?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Sin is sin. It doesn't have to have changed the course of history.

Do you pray the Lord's Prayer? Do you forgive trespasses as you expect others to forgive you?

The Inquisition, as an entity, was not an evil one. A few people did some things wrong, granted. But have you seen any Congressional investigations? They are exactly the same thing. For the record, the Catholic Church did not usually kill those found guilty by the Inquisition. The purpose of the Inquisition was to convert, not to murder.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Whoa, there... ! We are ALL "bad men". I didn't mean to offend, I was responding to the statement that religion is made for politics. Him not torturing was automaticaly humane despite the political shrewdness of it?
His waiting till being on his deathbed to get baptized so that he would die free of sin is only worth a shrug because he recognized he needed to legalize what a lot of of his own soldiers were doing?

Why do you want to be his judge? God judged him at his death and decided his worthiness for Heaven. It doesn't matter why he did it, it matters that he legalized Christianity. Had he not, God would have found another way. But Christianity actually thrives better when it's persecuted.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Perhaps the reformers felt it was time to stop elevating a man to such a high level?

I recall Paul and other apostles correct men trying to bow to them. I don't recall the Pope ever stopping or correcting any one bowing to him.

You do realize that these men laying on their faces are being ordained to Christ's ministry? They bow to God in pure, simple obedience.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So no one bows to the Pope any more? Glad he finally corrected that practice.

There is nothing wrong in the act of bowing. The wrong is in the intention of bowing. If you're bowing down in worship, you've done something wrong. If you're bowing down in respect, it's ok.

FWIW, I know that you bow down every time you get your Bible to read. Do you worship the Bible?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Interesting, it certainly looks like they are bowing (or more specifically, prostrating) to a human.

It's funny how looks can be deceiving, huh? And yet they can be. It's better to ask than to assume.

 

[Albion]

The Inquisition, as an entity, was not an evil one. A few people did some things wrong, granted. But have you seen any Congressional investigations?They are exactly the same thing.

oh my.

I can't wait for your next history lesson. "the Holocaust was not so bad. A few people did some things wrong. But have you seen any fraternity initiations? They are exactly the same thing."

On second thought, once is enough.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Two Roman Catholic youth bow down and pray in front of the heart.

The golden box that holds the claimed to be holy heart of Saint Jean-Marie Baptiste Vianney

As for Popes? Just your average every day Egyptian King..

Such humble servants

You have no idea what you're talking about. We don't pray to things, we pray to God.

Regarding the picture of the Pope, again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Modern popes, like their early Christian predecessors, had no desire to be Pope. They are chosen by the College of Cardinals with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's not something you run for and get elected, every time that's ever been done, someone else was elected. And while he is sovereign of the Vatican State, it's not him who chooses to be paraded like that.

 

[Pfaffenhofen]

"Part of worship" verifies my point quite well. The question then is "Should we be engaged in ANY worship or acts of worship when they're directed towards deceased humans or angels rather than to God? I'd say "no." If someone wants to put up a picture of a politician bowing before a head of state, that doesn't prove anything because, obviously, it's only an act of respect. But with acts that you freely admit are part of worshipping, that's a different matter, expecially when coupled, as is often the case, with lighting candles, saying prayers, etc.--all directed towards that personage who is not God.

My Mother is dead as well as my Father. So, you forbid me to talk to them. Who gave you the authority to forbid me to talk to them without them being gods ?

If talked to them here and it was not worship, now it starts being worship? On what grounds?

 

[athenken]

You have no idea what you're talking about. We don't pray to things, we pray to God.

Regarding the picture of the Pope, again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Modern popes, like their early Christian predecessors, had no desire to be Pope. They are chosen by the College of Cardinals with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's not something you run for and get elected, every time that's ever been done, someone else was elected. And while he is sovereign of the Vatican State, it's not him who chooses to be paraded like that.

Then how is it ok for the followers to want to put the Pope on a pedestal like this?